Affliction Warlock Feedback

(Sefirosuwar) #1745

Well things have gotten better the band aid feels pretty good , I pushed last night with a frost DK to 1749 in 2’s.
Felt like we have room for much higher rating aswell from the comp -
the 40% armor and sitting at 190k health feels good
the ID changes also feel better then I thought they would having the ability to use it at like 25-30 stacks and still put our good heals and damage with it. compared to previously waiting for max feels great I actually have a chance to heal my self with drain life multiple times in matches.
I think the only thing I want to see now is
UA dispel damage buffed -
Gateway baseline or Mortal Coil baseline
and CoE slow coming back so that we can use the interrupt and still have a slow. -
ALSO Wouldnt mind having the AOE whiplash knockback on sucubuss make a return.

(Jessail) #1746

Whereas I still want them to:

  • Fix DS to be a viable filler option by adding malefic grasp back into it.
  • Give us back some of the baseline artifact traits they pruned
  • Buff UA Dispel damage in PvP
  • Give us back Howl of Terror
  • Make Agony an actual curse again
  • Make DL baseline

(Xoja) #1747

Unless they separate the dispel and DoT damage and buff the dispel damage of a single UA, then UA stacking will always be a threat to the dispel damage in PVP.

I still think UA stacking should be changed for the health of the spec. When that happens is up to Blizz but it seems like UA serves too many purposes and doesn’t excel in anything but single target burst (when you have 4-5 UAs up and use cooldowns).

As for utility I still think Port baseline and replacing the talent with Howl of Terror would be a good solution. It makes that talent row a CC row. I also think Darkfury should just make Shadowfury instant.

A lot of other talents need work too, there has been feedback about pretty much all of them in this thread. Looking at the changes that were made in 7.1.5 I think 8.1.5 is the opportunity to take the plunge with talents and make the system feel good again. It is one of the big sore spots for BfA in terms of overall class design.

Also about Demon Armor and Demonic Embrace… I think we can agree that having to slap 10% stamina, 10% HP and 275% armor onto a class in the first big patch is a sign that design of said class needs to be looked at more carefully along the string of Alpha/Beta builds for a new expansion.

BTW, keeping a weapon enchanted with Stalwart Navigation handy probably isn’t a bad idea, the armor increase is huge with the multiplier from DA.

(Eldrìtch) #1748

I think you’re definitely right about UA stacking. Now that I look at it UA just feels very weird. It has contagion baked in, which demands keeping uptime. It consumes shards, which makes 100% uptime impossible. It also stacks which goes against the idea of keeping uptime. A lot of this just seems really counter intuitive to me upon closer inspection but maybe I’m just misinterpreting this.

Making UA just a singular powerful DoT with pandemic and dispel protection seems like it would be a much better option.

(Xoja) #1749

I have had that dream for a couple of years now. Sadly, it’s just the way it used to be too - not really asking for anything groundbreaking or new here.

Just want to see UA do its original, intended job.

It’s actually disturbing that one UA does less damage than one Corruption and Agony considering we spend resources and time on it.

Also, something seems to be amiss on the tooltip. I thought that the damage over time and the dispel damage were supposed to be the same (and they do show as the same if you look up UA on database sites) however in game it shows a 20% difference between the damage over time and dispel values (dispel being less). Was something changed that wasn’t put in the patch notes? Or am I crazy and this is always how it was?

Wowhead link, so click at your peril.

Afflicts the target with (58% of Spell power) Shadow damage over 8 sec. You may afflict a target with up to 5 Unstable Afflictions at once. If dispelled, deals [(14.5% of Spell power) * 400 / 100] damage to the dispeller and silences them for 4 sec.

To break that down, 14.5 x 4 yields 58. In other words, the same % as the damage over time.

However, the in-game tooltip:

(7915-6332)/7915 = .2

If the tooltip is accurate that is actually very disappointing. I did not see anything about this in the patch notes, so it looks like a stealth nerf between PTR ending and the patch drop (again, unless I am crazy and/or stupid).

(Delofasht) #1750

What if Unstable Affliction was actually unstable… so when cleansed off of a target all other dots on that target spread to nearby enemies and silences the cleanser?

Increased Rot damage potential, positionally dependant, big burst on the healer less emphasized, but instead hitting them with extra punishment on their healing job for cleansing (in addition to the silence).

(Sefirosuwar) #1751

Unless you found a bug that has been there the whole time and its why the dispel damage is so bad. lol —

(Xoja) #1752

I think the punishment for dispelling definitely should be looked at. The more they reduce the dispel damage the more it is encouraged to just continuously dispel off cooldown.

Destro is looking more and more tempting by the minute at least for PVP.

(Sefirosuwar) #1753

Current UA Examples ---------------

6481 - SP baseline Sefirosuwar
58%=3758 over 8 seconds
939.745*400/100 = 3758.98 dispel
*5 stacks = 18,794 - dispel damage

5601 - SP baseline Xoja
58% = 3248 damage over 8 secs
812.145*400/100=3248 damage instant
*5 stacks = 16,240 dispel damage

The damage to a 5 stack of UA dispel is a joke - That’s why it gets cleansed all the time imagine it did a deathbolt style mechanic cleanse UA and it does that damage plus 30% of the remaining damage of all dots on the target. Including the UA’s

Cleanse early and eat big damage wait till it ticks down and then dispel and eat the damage anyways.

(Xoja) #1754

Yeah and this is actually if the dispel damage is in line with the damage over time and not reduced like it shows in the tooltip.

It seems they’ve given us the elixir of life - immortal suffering. Massive armor and HP increase, but reduced pressure in PVP. I fully expected a change/nerf to ID but UA dispel damage was pitiful as is.

I mean having limited pressure compared to before makes sense but I think they just went about it the wrong way. There is a strong partition between what the spec gets and what it actually needs to be fun and fulfilling.

(Sefirosuwar) #1755

Would really hate to see a nerf to this version of ID -
If anything they just need to make it baseline at this point.
it completes the classes survival kit by giving decent heals and decent damage in rated content.
I was able to use it drain life for good heals without worrying about destroying my pressure output with the reduced stacks and the agony change.
it still hits like a truck and if you can get off a full drain can kill someone used correctly.

(Xoja) #1756

Yeah… and funny enough

ID basically re-institutes a similar version of the MG Drain Soul build. The difference obviously being that it stacks and we don’t need DoTs up for it to do damage, but it totally brings back that feel.

It can be fun to melt people with that but it just seems counter-intuitive to what Affliction should be (though I guess it falls under “drains” so maybe I’m wrong there - just my thoughts). I guess this is how they want us to play though.

But I’ve been messing around with Destro, it’s actually pretty fun with at least 2 Flashpoint traits. Keeps me over 30% haste when it’s up so it’s fun steamrolling and with Destro Mastery damage reduction on top of Demon Armor and Demonic Embrace the survivability is crazy good.


From a skirm I did.

It seems like a good example though because I put out a decent amount of damage and I was able to freecast UAs almost as often as I wanted. For all intents of purposes I was hitting target dummies that would occasionally line of sight but anyway…

If you add up the DoT and dispel damage from UA it comes out to be 479k. Over 100k less than Corruption (with AC) and almost as much than Agony. It is pretty clear that UA is pretty weak as a spender. Traits were 2x ID and 1 Sudden Onset.

I don’t know what they intend with this spec. It seems like the end goal is to just make it work, but it has all these bells and whistles that it probably doesn’t need. A focus on some of the traditional strengths of the spec with a little better utility would be fine.

As someone who enjoys Affliction I like the multi-tasking, watching timers and trying to push my limits with DoTs but a lot of it just doesn’t make much sense anymore.

Is UA supposed to be a powerful ability, or what? Even in a situation where I keep good uptime on it in PVP it doesn’t perform. The DoT portion gets beat by Grimoire of Sacrifice. Adding in the dispel doesn’t put it much higher.

It doesn’t feel good to use. But it’s not like I can cut it loose like I can with Shadow Bolt (I only actually used 1 Shadow Bolt in that match).

I’m not complaining about getting a lot of damage out of Corruption and Agony. I just think that for what we spend our most precious resource on and the activity requirements for getting use out of UA it should be better.

I don’t think it needs all these functions either.

(Jessail) #1758

Based on what I saw last light… the nerf is precisely as blizz intended. It was to keep us off the top of the meters, full stop. On quite a few fights the buffed Ele shammy was easily over topping me. I was fighting to stay viable in the raid.

(Sefirosuwar) #1759

Not sure I had no issues staying competitive in my raid. yeah I wasn’t walking over everyone like I previously was but up at the top with the rest of the group , It felt balanced honestly.

I use Agony,corruption,siphon life as my rot dots - since instant and mobile
UA is just a burst dot - not a rot dot : and thats the way blizzard has it designed
just keep 1-2 ua up on the kill target

IN pvp though I feel so much stronger - @xoja -
that seems off in the 2’s I run UA does allot more damage overall but it could be cause I don’t spread it I time it with DS and haunt/beserking racial/Int trinket and stack it like we do for pve roation. Hit 4-5ua’s /cd’s/ darkglare and DB .
usually has a target at 50% health with all that
then interrupt immunity and click drain life at above 25 stacks and BOOM dead. x3 ID is what I’m running.

(Xoja) #1760

It may be the difference between 2s and 3s, having Corruption/Agony on one more target that is.

Well that does make sense considering the 9% nerf to UA. It didn’t really just affect UA, it hit the burst too. But Affliction DPS still seems pretty decent from what I’ve seen (not really raiding atm though).

Overall design of the spec is the same so the strengths are still going to be the same, even if they aren’t as strong.

Yeah I get that and of course I’m using it as intended atm but I think UA should be a rot dot. It was originally intended to be a strong dot with dispel protection.

If they want us to have burst with our spender, great, but encroaching on UA with that purpose is just not right to me.

UA should have its job and our burst spender should have its job. Sort of like how they took away the healing from Corruption and brought Siphon Life back. I really think they should reinstate UA as it was instead of giving it this “jack of all trades but master of none” feel.

(Drakaeon) #1761

UA Dispel was nerfed early in Legion, because dispelling a 5 stack UA was 1 shotting healers in PvP. People cried, it got over-nerfed.

(Xoja) #1762

I remember that.

Honestly this is why I’d rather just not have 5 stack UA though and would rather just see 1 UA cast back with a reasonable dispel damage. It’s harder to balance the dispel damage clearly and when it gets nerfed it just feels bad having to put in more effort to get results from UA dispel.

Right now Aff feels better in PVP but it’s really just because we get left alone and get to do astronomical damage due to less pressure. It’s back to MoP where people don’t even want to try to kill us. The only difference is we have bonus armor instead of flat damage reduction from Soul Link.

I guess if it’s like this it doesn’t matter if we are a turret because we can just do our PVE rotation and laugh all the way to the bank. I suppose it’s not surprising that they went this route instead of taking a crack at mechanical issues with the spec.

(Drakaeon) #1763

The problem with Warlock since WoD but even more especially during legion and now is that Locks in PvP relate inversely with opponent skill. We are playing with PvE design mechanics in a PvP setting. We have no outplay potential, no tools for self expression or setting yourself apart from less experienced locks. Literally the only skill involved in playing warlock is displayed through Areana/PvP fundamentals, positioning, knowing your enemy, coordinating with your team BUT definitely don’t come from any abilities, talents or mechanics that would enable us to actually be reactive or do anything fun or cool.

We’ve been in this ridiculous pvp “Niche” of - Warlocks left alone will wreck your day, but don’t spend all your time training the Warlock because you won’t kill them. They’ve doubled down on this by removing our ability to peel for teammates.

(Xoja) #1768

Yeah there’s a strong lack of player agency and that’s really what I blame it on.

Thinking back to WotLK we had a lot of little things that separated the good warlocks from the average or the bad. Every global mattered. It was all about reaction time, thinking ahead and playing a game of chess with your opponent. In high ratings you really needed to be creative to win.

Agency started to go away in Cataclysm, but Warlocks were still fun. MoP saw a lot of great changes for Warlocks, and while the game felt deceptively simpler it was one of the most fun times I’ve had in WoW.

Ever since… Basically what you’ve said. Removal of tools, shift towards spamming PVE rotation and just waiting for your enemy to not have cooldowns. In most cases the game pretty much tells you how to play.

I don’t expect WoW to go back to old principles and I fully expect them to keep this loadout design where it’s more about picking the best way to shut your opponent out rather than worrying about making real choices and playing intelligently. Everything is pretty mongo now. And it can be fun but I wouldn’t call it “engaging.”