Affliction Warlock Feedback


(Fairyland) #21
04/25/2018 03:26 AMPosted by Xon
Sure—you hadn't brought this up before—but Soul Shard generation can and should be addressed on an overall-spec basis, not by individual abilities. It doesn't matter which abilities generate Soul Shards; it only matters how fast we get them overall, and how the circumstances affect that rate. Soul Shard generation is irrelevant as to the direct issue of whether or not we have a channeled filler.
Actually, i have brought it up multiple time, just not on this thread. Based on our spec's design, it does matter which ability generates Soul Shard.

It's simple - since almost 90% of our rotational spells are DoTs, it presents a unique problem: if we tack shard generation on just DoTs, it becomes either a feast or famine condition based on how they tune it. Too good on 1 target? Op once we have >2 targets. If we need 2+ targets to be good? Well..........

I don't think we 'need' to redo experiments on that, since Legion's latest experiment on making Drain Soul as a talent proves yet again how having nothing but only dot ticks to proc Shards is a terrible exercise.

Which leaves us only filler spells as our other source of shard generation, which Drain Soul has been a staple and reliable workhorse since vanilla, while Shadow Bolt never did provided any.

Given the circumstances in which we are still stuck with UA requiring a Soul Shard, Shadow Bolt that's not generating any shard is putting a huge roadblock to our shard income, and a bigger dent on our DPS output.

And given the simple fact that up until now, they still showing no signs of even touching on this particular subject, let's just say while the sky is not falling down, it certainly looks doom and gloom.

For the record, Shadow Bolt as a filler and Drain Soul/Malefic Grasp as a filler pretty much shares the same time period. We switched from Shadow Bolt to Malefic Grasp, and then Drain Soul since Mist of Pandaria - which is 2012, almost 6 years ago. That's probably more than enough to say both spells have a significant presence in our spec, and a more flexible solution would have been much more preferable than forcing us to stick with either one.

04/25/2018 03:35 AMPosted by Xon
The change to Unstable Affliction—10% increased damage done per application—combined with Shadow's Embrace takes care of this issue.
It also brings out new problems, which ironically some of them are old problems which gone away when we moved to MG/Drain Soul.

Without a stable and consistent shard income, UA is casted significantly lesser, which is an overall dps loss. Even now on beta, Shard generation for Affliction feels significantly slower than live, and it feels even more awkward as we are so used to shard sniping with Drain Soul that when it is completely gone, Affliction feels even more hollow and boring than Legion. How ironic.

Shadow Embrace requires 3 stacks to fully ramp - which means while Single Target is pretty much working fine, Target swapping is taking more time than MG/Drain Soul, since now it's a double ramp on both Agony and Shadow Embrace.

Shadow Embrace can only be refreshed by Shadow Bolt - which means like it or don't, Nightfall pretty much becomes 'mandatory' since you can't afford to lose the Shadow Embrace stacks. Unless you intend to not take Nightfall while using Shadow Bolt..........which i guess it's definitely a personal choice, but not recommended by raid standard. I can't imagine how people will not complaint about Nightfall being 'mandatory'. In fact, i already see plenty of post requesting to make Nightfall a baseline passive again, although i expect a huge nerf to come along with it if they do that.

I'm not going to repost my test results on how missile speed, travel time and range will affect Shadow Embrace/Shadow Bolt, but with more people trying out in beta i'm sure they will have a better idea how those will have a heavy influence, which is the same problem we had back in Shadow Bolting days.

Ironically, if we put Soul Effigy back with Shadow Bolt, it would end up even worse than Legion. Imagine needing to also stack Shadow Embrace on Soul Effigy, which is already doing less damage when we put UA on it...........

I don't deny that the interplay between Shadow Bolt, Nightfall, and Shadow Embrace would be fun for some, but i regress making it as the only choice. Like many have requested, allowing us to choose between Shadow Bolt or Drain Soul, even via talents, would have been a great solution to quell the community frustration.

(Sefirosuwar) #22
04/25/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Xoja
Grimoire of Sacrifice and Seduction combination is still putting us in a 30 sec channeling window in which we are doing absolutely zero dps, and we can't do anything or even move, or else the CC breaks. I don't see any situation where this can even be remotely useful. That channeling component needs to be removed, even on the pet itself


I actually prefer having Seduce instead of the knockback, at least for PVP purposes. The channel thing leaves a bit to be desired, yes, but having Seduce without relying on the squishy Succubus that dies after being looked at opens up some possibilities in Arena.

The idea that I can fear and seduce two different targets simultaneously if I want to is great, even if one of them has to be channeled.

If they decide to improve it, even better. It’s one of the rare niche utility things that actually exist in BfA and I’m a sucker for figuring out ways to use that kind of stuff.


I agree with fairyland - that the channel coming from the player using sacrifice is a little Redic. change it to a cast time and then allow the player to move and do other things. if you want to keep it seduce or change it to the knock back.

(Xoja) #23
04/25/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Xoja
...

I actually prefer having Seduce instead of the knockback, at least for PVP purposes. The channel thing leaves a bit to be desired, yes, but having Seduce without relying on the squishy Succubus that dies after being looked at opens up some possibilities in Arena.

The idea that I can fear and seduce two different targets simultaneously if I want to is great, even if one of them has to be channeled.

If they decide to improve it, even better. It’s one of the rare niche utility things that actually exist in BfA and I’m a sucker for figuring out ways to use that kind of stuff.


I agree with fairyland - that the channel coming from the player using sacrifice is a little Redic. change it to a cast time and then allow the player to move and do other things. if you want to keep it seduce or change it to the knock back.


The way I see it is the channel makes it god awful in a PVE setting. However, it is actually useful in a PVP environment because it will obviously have reduced duration, and function similarly to Mind Control, except the target is unable to be moved around, they are just effectively sedated for the duration.

It definitely has a place in PVP, at least. Just not so much anywhere else.

(Fairyland) #24
04/25/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Xoja
I actually prefer having Seduce instead of the knockback, at least for PVP purposes. The channel thing leaves a bit to be desired, yes, but having Seduce without relying on the squishy Succubus that dies after being looked at opens up some possibilities in Arena.

The idea that I can fear and seduce two different targets simultaneously if I want to is great, even if one of them has to be channeled.

If they decide to improve it, even better. It’s one of the rare niche utility things that actually exist in BfA and I’m a sucker for figuring out ways to use that kind of stuff.
Funny thing is, Seduction already have a cast time. So i really don't understand why it 'needs' a channeling requirement too.

The cast time is long enough that it can be interrupted if one pays attention - so wut, they just need to double down the chances of Seduction being able to be interrupted?

I don't deny it has niche uses, but i really think '30 sec doing absolutely nothing' is too niche to be of any practical use. Obviously for any grouped content no one is going to like having a dps not doing any damage while doing CC, which gets even more emphasized in contents like Mythic+. For solo activities like WQ............i mean, i can understand it can be fun to watch that love sign flying on top their heads, but a 30 sec break? I suppose it might be useful if we're not questing in zones like Argus............

The notion of 'able to CC 2 targets at one time' is a logical concern, but like i said - both Seduction and Fear are on the same DR category a long time ago, so it is a non-issue on the same target, since DR ensures we can't chain spamming Fear/Seduction and keep the target completely helpless.

That's why it was fixed long ago when we were having fun with that. Probably also a typical warlock issue: we try to find ways to use our utility 'creatively', which quickly gets squashed when a new trick is found wrecking havoc.

(Xoja) #25
Funny thing is, Seduction already have a cast time. So i really don't understand why it 'needs' a channeling requirement too.


So does Mind Control for Priests, and they arguably already have poor CC compared to what Warlocks have.

I’m not gonna say it’s great and doesn’t need work but yeah.

(Xon) #26
04/25/2018 08:40 AMPosted by Fairyland
Shadow Embrace can only be refreshed by Shadow Bolt - which means like it or don't, Nightfall pretty much becomes 'mandatory' since you can't afford to lose the Shadow Embrace stacks.


I haven't had any problems keeping Shadow Embrace up; I think you're slightly overstating how much Nightfall is "needed", unless you're trying to keep stacks going on 2+ targets.

04/25/2018 08:40 AMPosted by Fairyland
Even now on beta, Shard generation for Affliction feels significantly slower than live


For the time being most abilities will feel worse than they do on live due to stat squish, so some of what we're experiencing could be because of things like reduced Haste values and the like—but overall DPS output also matters more than Soul Shard generation rates as well.

f we tack shard generation on just DoTs, it becomes either a feast or famine condition based on how they tune it.


I agree that this could be a problem, but a channeled filler is not the only solution either. They could add Soul Shard generation to Shadow Bolt, or add some other mechanic entirely. This is primarily an issue for dps in raid encounters, which I don't think many of us have experience with just yet.

(Xoja) #27
The more I think about it, the more it seems that they are purposefully making Affliction unappealing because it was strong for 3 raid tiers of Legion.

Remembering when, during WoD, Watcher came out and said that they “really don’t want people playing Demo” because it was going to be reworked for Legion... I can’t help but think that Affliction is getting similar treatment, but for a different reason.

Affliction has been stripped of most of its utility, and a few of the talents that were unpopular in Legion were nerfed.

(Wardline) #28
I hate the RNG on shard gen. They need to make it reliable.

What'd be nice is if they made it so that UA can't stack and a full drain soul will give 3 chards.

Those 2 changes would improve the spec emensly. It'd loose a lot of ST burst but haunt could fill that better with a high CD, low duration and high effect. Keep shadowbolt as a filler.

(Baalzebubb) #29
My posts on Alpha were deleted to, but it's even better so I can write more shortly:

1) Comming Soon talent: My suggestion here is SoulFlame (Artifact Trait). It's amazing and I think that it fills in a nice niche when you fights multiple adds with small HP pool. Nightfall is more used for enemies that last longer and specially single target and Sacrifice for a RNG dmg to enemies that last longer with a higher HP pool and are numbered.
SoulFlame also is amazing to level with, farm mobs and specially old Dungeons and Raids. I will surely miss it.

2) Affliction Lost depth because our talent tree revolved on:
a) No multiplier to DoT damage (WiA/AC) - gone
b) 15% multipler (WiA/Contagion) - now baked into UA itself
c) 25%+15% multiplier (MG/Contagion) - Gone

Option C was removed with the removal of Drain Soul and MG, Option A is non-existant because you want every target to have the highest possible UA uptime so all DoTs on it gain its multiplier (much like playing contagion in live). Now, in live, if you don't take contagion, and take Absolute Corruption or ELT you can dump all your UAs on a single target (usually taken in multiple adds 4 or more) while renewing your DoTs on all targets.

So now the rotation consist on keeping all your DoTs up in every target you can. And that's it.
Unless you take Shadow Embrace and you try to optimize the uptime of the debuff on as many targets as you can.
Shallow, without depth.

My 2cs.

PS: I'm having a blast with Demo and specially Destruction, but to me Affliction feels very shallow and boring.

(Synistor) #30
Well let's just think about this new build for affliction. There is no way this version would be able to handle the Mage Tower as it is right now. Or even the Elemental Shaman / Fire Mage tower.

(Baalzebubb) #31
04/25/2018 09:31 AMPosted by Xoja
Funny thing is, Seduction already have a cast time. So i really don't understand why it 'needs' a channeling requirement too.


So does Mind Control for Priests, and they arguably already have poor CC compared to what Warlocks have.

I’m not gonna say it’s great and doesn’t need work but yeah.


Shadow Priests have a talent to make the Mind Controlled add a pet, so they dont need it chaneled.
The situation becomes ridiculous when you sacrifice your Succubus (you can sacrifice it, so it should be useful or simply put dont implement it) and you, the warlock, need to keep channeling for the whole duration.
AS far as I know also, Fear is back to its former incarnation and enemies actually run away with the usual drastic consequences. Therefore, I really think Seduction shouldn't be chaneled.

(Xoja) #32
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So does Mind Control for Priests, and they arguably already have poor CC compared to what Warlocks have.

I’m not gonna say it’s great and doesn’t need work but yeah.


Shadow Priests have a talent to make the Mind Controlled add a pet, so they dont need it chaneled.
The situation becomes ridiculous when you sacrifice your Succubus (you can sacrifice it, so it should be useful or simply put dont implement it) and you, the warlock, need to keep channeling for the whole duration.
AS far as I know also, Fear is back to its former incarnation and enemies actually run away with the usual drastic consequences. Therefore, I really think Seduction shouldn't be chaneled.


And Warlocks have the ability to Fear one target and Seduce a second target. Trust me, it’s a situational strength of the class if you use it right.

Part of the benefit of using Sac in PVP is that you don’t have to rely on having a sluggish or squishy pet to use the ability that pet gives you.

Like I said, if they want to improve the Sac version of Seduce, that’s fine. But I can clearly see that it has a use and that is all I am trying to point out here.

I’m not arguing that it shouldn’t be looked at, I’m helping people understand how they can put it to use in preparation for them NOT looking at it or changing it.

(Baalzebubb) #33
Just today, in Atal'Dazar, a lock feared one mob...
... into another group, causing a wipe. Lock business as usual, just to remind us that without the Glyph that keeps the mob shaking in fear stuck in a spot, Fear isn't a reliable form of Crow Control specially in challenging content.

I really can't accept the argument that fear is a reliable form of CC, since, hell, Vanila's beta or that we should be taxed in our DPS because our pet needs to remains still.
Mages sheep (and frost trap, circle of frost)
Rogues Sap (and blind, cheap shot)
Hunters Trap (and slow mobs and tether them if Survival)
Locks Fear one mob... into a group? Seduce... and lose DPS?

Even if the lock knows the dungeon pretty well, yes, you can use fear as CC, but the group needs to change its strategy entirely by pulling waaaaay back, and I am sure this will waste time in M+ runs.
My DH tank (or DPS) can CC better than my lock main. Instant cast, pretty visible the effect, mouse over macro.

I think fear is ok, but Seduce needs to be updated. The reason it wasn't updated most likely is that we migrated to the powerful pets that are now removed.

(Xoja) #34
04/25/2018 03:51 PMPosted by Baalzebubb
Let's be quite frank here, if your whole argument is that warlocks shouldn't have access to a reliable CC that doesn't hinder it's ability to DPS


I honestly stopped there because you're just inventing things now. I never said nor implied such a thing.

I made this thread to give feedback on how to improve things about Affliction, not to take away or to hinder the spec any further than it already has been.

(Baalzebubb) #35
I'm sorry, but from your previous post it looked like you were actually defending fear as a CC, which isn't reliable in PvE. If that's not the case, I am now changing my post to be more generic.

(Malaprop) #36
04/25/2018 01:59 AMPosted by Qean
Shadow Bolt - I cringe every time I have to cast this. I like drain soul as a filler and really don't want to go back to casting this. At least with drains I could get ticks off during heavy movement fights. So now it will be - begin casting, make the choice, finish cast or move for the mechanic. Learning fights is going to get even more involved in planning out all your casts so you can get the most uptime possible.


This -- when Affliction is already the spec with the most ramp-up time and the most maintenance. Do I start casting that Shadow Bolt if that Agony is gonna fall off during it? Of course not, if I'm attentive; but that means I am probably doing literally nothing for those couple seconds.

(Xoja) #37
I'm sorry, but from your previous post it looked like you were actually defending fear as a CC, which isn't as it isn't reliable in PvE. If that's not the case, I am now changing my post to be more generic.


I was speaking from a PVP standpoint, not trying to get into a discussion about fear in PVE. And I was stating simple facts about how it works and I thought that would be assumed because we're all adult Warlocks here... But I wasn't fully transparent, so my bad.

But to shine a little on the point you were trying to make, yes, Fear is not a reliable CC in PVE, as 99% of Warlocks know. When they removed the glyph, it was a clear sign that Blizzard does not want groups to rely on Warlocks for Fear.

And now that we don't have glyphs at all, that mechanic will probably never make a return to the game. It is sad, to be honest.

I'm trying to come to terms with all the utility we've (Affliction locks, because they gave it all to Demo) lost in alpha/beta, but it just feels terrible.

(Scruit) #38
I'm glad to see demonic circle is two abilities again

I'm gonna miss drain soul, all they had to do was make drain soul and drain life separate abilities again. The problems rose from combining the two.

By separating them the player had to choose between damage and healing.

Personally I'd like drain soul back. And then nightfall could make shadowbolt replace drain soul AND give the nightfall proc.

Giving warlock the option to choose their filler style

(Fairyland) #39
I haven't had any problems keeping Shadow Embrace up; I think you're slightly overstating how much Nightfall is "needed", unless you're trying to keep stacks going on 2+ targets.
If you stay completely stationary and only focusing on 1 target, yes there is no problems.

The problem arises once you throw in variables like movement, range from target and such. Even chain casting UA is throwing off that rhythm - each consecutive UA you cast means less time for you to refresh your Shadow Embrace. Even just 2 UA being casted already shaves 50% off your Shadow Embrace window.

And like i said: Since there is no other spells that actually apply or refresh Shadow Embrace other than Shadow Bolt, that puts a significant edge on Nightfall.

You can opt not to take Nightfall, but i doubt most will choose not to.

I don't think Shadow Embrace is 'meant' for multiple targets, but i can be wrong. With a high haste rating, it is likely possible and easy to maintain SE on 2+ targets. But i expect either a huge nerf when that happens, or mastery scaling will still be the best output which nullifies stacking haste.

Heck, they can even just put 'Limit to 1 target' on Shadow Embrace and effectively shutdown the whole multi-target padding in one swift swoop.

04/25/2018 11:46 AMPosted by Xon
For the time being most abilities will feel worse than they do on live due to stat squish, so some of what we're experiencing could be because of things like reduced Haste values and the like—but overall DPS output also matters more than Soul Shard generation rates as well.
I'm not sure why would you exclude shard generation rate from dps formulae when it directly affects DPS.

Unless you are saying we 'should' be tuned with casting less UA, then perhaps you have a point.

But if that is the case, UA stacking as a mechanic cease to have any meaning, or even serve any function. Why allow UA to stack if we are 'suppose' to cast less UA?

I'm not saying we should be able to always throwing out UA at any time and any where. But if UA is meant to be used sparingly and properly managed to be effective...............no offense, that would mean chain dumping UA is actually a dps loss, and that would even dampen our target swapping and bursting even more on top of another ramp timer to manage.

Unless they intend to make target swapping/priority busting a weak spot for us?

04/25/2018 11:46 AMPosted by Xon
I agree that this could be a problem, but a channeled filler is not the only solution either. They could add Soul Shard generation to Shadow Bolt, or add some other mechanic entirely. This is primarily an issue for dps in raid encounters, which I don't think many of us have experience with just yet.
I agree.

But the point is: we still haven't seen any changes being done, even till now. And the clock is ticking down.

The same exact problem was brought up during Legion Alpha/Beta, where Drain Soul was converted into a talent, and our filler was nothing but Drain Life, which of course till now still doesn't provide any shard related generation.

That problem went live despite pages of feedback - and we are plagued with issues, which really makes us unplayable until multiple patches after to fix the exact problems which was being brought up before the expansion went live.

I'm doing what i can to help prevent the same mistake from being repeated because people were either too optimistic, or too oblivious to notice a staggering flaw.

If it still gets pushed to live status and we end up reliving the same problems as we did during Legion Launch? At least i know i did all i could this time.

If i was proven wrong? I'll be happy to admit that i was wrong, but even happier that our class and specs doesn't require 'multiple patches after' to be functional, or even fun.

(Veilstride) #40
A spec all about soul magics and capturing soul loses drain soul/malefic grasp and gains an inferior filler spell that it will now share with demonology warlocks.

It makes absolutely no sense.

Remove the healing component of drain soul/malefic grasp if you must or nerf its healing component, but the spell needs to be our filler.

Not shadowbolt.