A Thought On Neutral RP Events

So, when I saw someone theoretically condemning Orc warriors, I should have taken action by calling out the comment.

Call out the behavior? Believe victims? Criticize? Same thing we’ve always talked about.

You can’t proclaim an interest in public safety as a motivator if you’re not going to understand the behavior that led to the stereotype. If all you’re doing is calling out the stereotype without listening to victims of the behavior, nothing is going to change.

I could say that goes both ways.

I feel like I see a fair amount of this. You just feel it should happen more, is your point?

They don’t care. Protecting the feelings of people in that group mean more to them than acknowledging those who have suffered because of people in that group. It’s why for so long I just wouldn’t bother speaking up.

I do, though. And you don’t get to dictate my feelings.

The people in that group who did nothing? Yeah, I do think some care should be taken to not brand people who did nothing wrong as harassers and bigots, when they’re not.

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You could. And if you believe that, you have an opportunity in this thread to abide by it. You claim you didn’t know Malakota was a victim before. You do now.

There’s a chance to listen here.

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I mean, in just one thread over, I saw someone throw out an offensive dogwhistle. People pushed back, but it didn’t happen in huge numbers.

Silence is the abuser’s ally. They always take it as proof that no one will stand up for the people they’re targeting. Frequently, they’re right.

So yeah, I guess I’d like to see it happen more reflexively.

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Interesting… I mean I’d be more than happy to try and do that more frequently. Everyone knows being quiet isn’t one of my character traits.

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Protecting people who are attacked is important, yes. And I’m sad you were also attacked. Since it was in the past, I can’t really help you with that other than to try to tell you that not all male Orc warriors RP in the way the ones did who harassed you.

I understand that not all people feel like they can speak up when they are attacked or harassed, and I’m sorry for people who can’t. As for myself, I will call out when I see someone being unfairly criticized. Since you had not said you were attacked, your comment came off as attacking.

As I said earlier, I know I can’t change your mind and you are fully within your right to believe as you do. I’m also within my rights to believe that you’re wrong about the statement you just made that one thing is more important to me than the other.

Since we appear to be at an impasse, can we both agree that people who harass others - regardless of class/race - are all jerks, and that it’s possible that not all people of a particular class/race are harassing jerks?

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I make it sound easier than it is. Speaking up can be difficult, especially when you appear outnumbered or no one else has brought it up before. But that just makes it more important to do so.

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“Claim” is a loaded word and not really appropriate here unless your intent is to imply that I somehow knew Malakota was a victim of harassment at his initial post about Orc warriors. Is that where you’re going?

And since you’ve allowed that I could say that:

“You can’t proclaim an interest in public safety as a motivator if you’re not going to understand the behavior that led to the stereotype. If all you’re doing is calling out the stereotype without listening to victims of the behavior, nothing is going to change”

goes both ways, I would hope you’ll be understanding that if someone is a victim of behavior (such as being told repeatedly that Belf RPers are bad), that perhaps that person would also find offense in any stereotyping and want to stop it. If all someone is not listening to victims of bad stereotyping, how do you expect it to change?

No. If your compassion comes with the caveat of “but you can’t say harsh things or point out generalized problems, even if you’re frustrated” then we have nothing further to discuss.

I do find it interesting that when I meet those orc players who are rare exceptions that don’t fulfill my worst expectations, nine times out of ten they aren’t offended by the generalization because they’re aware of the truth in it. They don’t counter my descriptions of previous experiences with “not all orc players.”

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That’s actually not really true.

You’re making the assumption that the two have equivalent impacts, that someone who is abused and someone who maybe misses out on some RP because of a stereotype about Orc Warriors suffered the same, which isn’t true.

In fact, it’s actually a form of victim blaming, since it suggests that peoples’ bad experiences come from stereotypes and not from the behavior of the abusers. I’m not saying you are victim blaming, but that mindset leads to it.

And, as Kazimir pointed out, if the community’s reputation is bad on the whole, then it falls to the individuals to make sure that toxicity doesn’t have a place to fester in that community. So far, members of that community have been reluctant to push back against the toxicity.

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Precisely this. There are many good Orc RPers. They don’t get upset by people being wary because they know that bad Orc RPers have earned that rep and they’re working to reverse it.

It’s why Night Elves and Blood Elves call out veiled homophobic behavior in the form of “breeder politics” and why Humans push back against Human Male Paladins.

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No, you’re making assumptions that harassment doesn’t occur when someone makes stereotypical generalizations - but it does. Do you know how many times I’ve been called out as a Belf RPer? As a joke? As someone not worth another RPer’s time because I’m obviously only RPing a Belf because Belfs like to be pretty and they’re all in it for ERP and they’re not serious or good RPers? Or how about the jerks who called Kirsy adult slurs because she happened to be riding through Brill on a Belf? Didn’t matter that she rides around in full plate - obviously she was just there to booty call. Or what about one of my RP friends who used to tend bar in Brill in LK who got run out of the bar because Belfs “didn’t belong there.”

If we start letting stereotypes fester - and that’s what they do - then the harassment will start all over again. We don’t need to tell anyone that just because they’re RPing any character that they’re bad, that they OOCly share that character’s viewpoint, that they’re OOCly a jerk, a lightweight or anything else because of the character model or class they picked.

See above. Stereotypes are bad behavior of abusers in many cases.

And as an individual, if I see a stereotype being propagated, I need to make sure that I push back. Let’s not stereotype RPers as being their characters.

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Nobody involved in this conversation is going to change their mind, because no amount of evidence to the contrary will be sufficient.

Now excuse me while I set up one of those PROVE ME WRONG signs.

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Oh, I see. So when I say “generally, orc players I’ve encountered have been consistently horrible and hateful to me in large numbers, so I’m not interested in dealing with them as a group” I am in effect harassing them and I am in fact an abuser.

Yeah, this is exactly why for so long I just kept quiet about my experiences to all but close friends. Because it always gets dismissed or twisted around.

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I assume you aren’t addressing me in this comment, since you said we have nothing further to discuss.

Nah, you don’t get to passively insult me by suggesting I was abusive by making my statement, and then dismiss me out of hand when I respond to it.

Are you implying there is NOT a systemic issue with the kind of behavior frequently seen in the orc community? Or that calling it out for what it is, is not permissible? And please, stop comparing it to the Blood Elf situation because anyone who’s been paying attention knows the two groups are NOT comparable. There is a definite, higher incidence of abrasive behavior in orc players and a sour reputation is absolutely deserved; there is not nearly as much truth to what’s said about elf players and you know it.

So why keep pretending they’re at all alike?

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