A solution for M+ quitters

Aewendil-caelestrasz · February 23, 2019, 9:42am

Then you just kick them and they get the punishment anyway, as already happens with deserter debuff, for exactly this reason.

Eveline-windrunner · February 23, 2019, 9:43am

After which you went on to say “if it doesn’t happen to raid why would it happen to M+”, to thich I answered with the differences and why the comparison isn’t valid.

I don’t disagree that closed groups are better than PUGs. What I don’t understan is why people who have made sure to say they don’t PUG are complaining about somehting that would only impact players who do PUG. Dude, if you’ve got 4 friends to run M+ every week with, you won’t ever have to worry about this.

What I want is to create a community that’s more considerate to other people’s time and that will hopefully result in a better experience to everybody. I understand and respect many people’s arguments and fears about what I proposed, but “you just shouldn’t PUG” isn’t one of them.

Bearfu-dalaran · February 23, 2019, 9:44am

Only it is valid, because you’re disregarding my entire point in hyperfocusing on one sentence.

M+ is progression content, just like raiding. Blizzard should treat them equally and remain hands off.

Aewendil-caelestrasz · February 23, 2019, 9:47am

The real issue, and why your DH left, is the way that raiderio calculates scores.

The guy was lying about not having time. What he really meant was “I’m here to raise my score. That’s not going to happen in this run, so I’m out”.

raiderio requiring a score from all 10 dungeons it what leads to this behaviour. If they instead took your best 5 dungeons and calculated a score from that, then you wouldn’t have the situation where people are running dungeons that have no loot for them, only potential score upgrades.

People typically stay for completion if the dungeon drops their BIS trinket or a weapon. But if the dungeon doesn’t drop anything good for them, why stay after the point where the run won’t increase their best score?

The real issue is twofold

Comparative lack of rewards for completing the dungeon. Removing AP means that completing the dungeon is pretty meaningless unless you want loot. In legion when dungeons dropped meaningful amounts of AP, people didn’t leave nearly so often, because it was worth investing the extra 5-10 minutes to get the AP you already spent 30 minutes working for.
raiderio incentivising people to run these dungeons anyway to raise score. But score is the only incentive, so no score increase = why stay?

The major issue with M+ this expansion is that it simply isn’t anywhere near as rewarding as it was in Legion. There’s little reason to do more than 1 M+ a week unless you are trying to raise score or farm titanforges. In Legion, you could farm all the AP and Legendaries you needed in M+.

BFA forces the people who ran a lot of M+ in legion to farm islands for AP instead, the AP granted from end of dungeon chests is a pittance, and this is one of the primary drivers behind people quitting runs.

Eveline-windrunner · February 23, 2019, 9:49am

Except they’re not equals since you can’t replace people in M+. Unequal situations deserve unequal solutions.

Bearfu-dalaran · February 23, 2019, 9:51am

They are equal, though. You have to clear lower difficulties to access higher ones with better rewards. That’s the very definition of progression.

Whether you can replace people or not is irrelevant, because you shouldn’t be dealing with people prone to leaving outside of legitimate, real life issues in the first place.

Again, you’re asking Blizzard to redesign a system when you’re the one using it in an unintended way. That isn’t on Blizzard to fix.

Eveline-windrunner · February 23, 2019, 9:59am

Like I said above, I comprehend many arguments against my proposal. The “you just shouldn’t be PUGing” just isn’t one of them. Forget the fact that you’re pretendng to know what’s the intended way Blizz did something w/o any evidence to back it up. Regardless of what you should and shouldn’t be doing, the reality is that not everybody has 4 friends playing the game and people do rely on PUG to do M+, both high and low keys alike.

The fact that you can’t replace people isn’t irrelevant since it completely changes the dynamic of the gameplay. What’s irrelevant is my proposal to you and most other “anti-PUG” players here who most likely have fixed people to run with and would not have to deal with this punishment in the first place.

Give me a good reason besides the “oh you just don’t play the game the right way, man, My way is the right way” which is not only counter-productive but also does not address the problem, and I’ll gladly listen.

@Awendil: this post was supposed to be a response to Bearful and not your post. I’m still working on this new forum system thingy, my bad.

Tewa-hyjal · February 23, 2019, 10:03am

Adding options for people to pug didn’t affect my raid, either, until the day that it did. I’m now wary of Blizzard doing anything, because one day it’s going to come and bite me in the rear, of that I’m certain.

Zoumz-zuljin · February 23, 2019, 10:04am

Those people that leave or get punished could also be decent people, why would you want to punish them for something that might not be their fault. When doing M+ if you’re going for completion says so in you group description and tell it to people before starting.

And in the worst case, you’ll lose a level on your key and just have to do more you have all week to do that, that’s like when people leave after a raid wipe just have to start again. But for sure if it happens so much that you feel that you need to post about it on forums, normally that also means you’re part of the problem.

Bearfu-dalaran · February 23, 2019, 10:08am

Only it is. All you have to do is look at the MDI for evidence of that. You don’t see people pugging that, do you? No, because that’s not how M+ was designed. It’s infinitely scaling content intended for a relatively static group to push together.

Mooing-sargeras · February 23, 2019, 10:14am

Easy solution. Have Raider IO put how many keys you abandoned that week on the website and the addon

Aewendil-caelestrasz · February 23, 2019, 10:16am

The problem is that information doesn’t exist. Raiderio gets their data from blizzard, which only logs completed runs. It’s not possible to get any information on runs that were abandoned.

Eveline-windrunner · February 23, 2019, 10:16am

I’m not making any judgement about their character, they could be Mother Theresa for all I care. I’m not even judging the reason they had for leaving, all I’m advocating for is for simple policy changes that, in my opinion, would foster a better gaming environment.

If one day my daughter wakes up feeling sick and I have to leave a run to take care of her, I’ll do it and face the punishment. Am I a bad person? No. Does that mean the rules shouldn’t apply to me? No.

Alright dude, you got me at MDI. Clearly Blizzard created this stuff with the .00001% of the player-base in mind. That’s been their design philosophy for many years, actually.

Aewendil-caelestrasz · February 23, 2019, 10:18am

The answer isn’t to punish people for leaving IMO. It’s to incentivise them to stay. Which means primarily allowing people to farm AP in M+ instead of in islands. And possibly adding other rewards in the dungeon chest too. (rep tokens, war resources, mounts/pets etc).

Icengaard-frostmourne · February 23, 2019, 10:18am

Sincerely doubtful that a pug would ever get to mythic Jaina.

Bearfu-dalaran · February 23, 2019, 10:20am

And I doubt they’d be clearing a 20+ key in time either if they even got a key that high.

Icengaard-frostmourne · February 23, 2019, 10:20am

I can’t seem to find a make friends section in the premade group finder, how does one…make…friends? Do you use clay?

Icengaard-frostmourne · February 23, 2019, 10:23am

But OP is talking about pugging a 13 -14 key not a +20…

Eveline-windrunner · February 23, 2019, 10:27am

I agree but I also think it doesn’t matter. As long as Blizzard refuses to acknowledge and rank their players according to their skills, the more competitive-minded players will have to rely on 3rd party community websites to do it for them. And those will always be deficient, w/ lower quality, and create unintended consequences that affect people’s gameplay. It’s common practice among their games, besides SC, Blizz has always been reluctant to acknowledge and reward the cutting edge players in fear of alienating the casual players, and that’s why I don’t think taht will change any time soon.

I do agree with you and also think that M+ should offer more rewards, and perhaps that would lower the number of people quitting runs. That being said, I also think that people who leave should be punished in some form.

Zoumz-zuljin · February 23, 2019, 10:30am

Even if you think that’s a good way to deal with it, I doubt punishing is the way to go and the way Blizzard will go. It creates as much problems as it removes. Glad you would accept that punishment, for me it just means that I would never pug just in case they decide to kick me to troll me, not worth the risk.

I don’t think people would also feel more safe doing keys and I feel it would reduce the participation more because it encourages bullying even more, kick the guy just before last boss he’s gonna lose levels on his key!

I think the basic tricks are still the best even if you don’t like to hear them again, add people in friendlist when you liked to do a m+ with them, put people on ignore for those that you didn’t like. Join a guild or a discord to do M+ with them.