Which is again, a tiny fact, communicated via text in a piece of transmedia narrative that a vanishingly small percentage of the fan population read.
It’s hence easy to retcon - and probably should be retconned.
Which once again brings us to Kisin and my stances that Blizzard should not retcon Cenarion Circle unity, as it is one of the selling points of the faction.
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Yeah, and this is just an intractable difference between us. I remember feeling resentful that the Night Elves’ own druids didn’t seem to care or even be bothered to comment about Ashenvale. I remember feeling as though Blizzard created Leyara to caricaturize and villainize people who thought like me, and I remember myself and countless other Darnassus defenders spitting on the inert NPC of Malfurion, win or lose, after Tyrande raids.
I don’t want that “unity” if that’s what that means.
I am aware. As I said, we discussed this plenty back in the day, and these were the same conclusions we reached back then.
Well, we have certainly reestablished that - now what would you say to Horde players who complain that Tauren and Trollish druidism has been completely subsumed by the Night Elf aesthetic as a consequence of them being a part of the Cenarion Circle?
Both Tauren and Darkspear and even Refugee Gilnean Druidism is in fact Night Elf Druidism. It is less that their Druidism has been subsumed and more that they never got the chance to grown their own. Gilneans had some magic to aid with crops and harvest, and the Darkspear learned through Gonk’s efforts before he abandoned them, but they, and the Tauren even more so, ultimately learned nearly the entirety of their Druidism from the Night Elves.
This is not to say that the Tauren, Darkspear, and Gilneans can’t gain additional cultural establishments of their on on top of the Cenarion Circle participation they already partake in. For example, the Tauren established their Priesthood by taking Night Elven Druidism practices and applying them to studying the nature of Solar energies.
And yet they still also partake in Cenarion Circle’s ways as well.
Now the Tauren’s priesthood has not been given sufficient time to be explored, especially as the Sunwalker Paladins take up the spotlight, and even then they get shuffled off behind the already existing Alliance and Blood Elf Paladin establishments. But nonetheless, the Tauren’s Priests and Druids show they can have both. Or even a third kind of “Druid” if the Tauren wanted even more.
Likewise for the Darkspear and Gileans.
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Calling Tauren and Trollish druidism “Night Elf Druidism” may be canonically correct, but I can’t imagine that it addresses the legitimate concerns of Horde players that they either do not have a culture, or that their culture is ignored in favor of traditionally Alliance aesthetics. I agree that this doesn’t preclude them from having cultural markers of their own, but historically, they haven’t gotten such - which leads us to this problem.
The problem’s solution is then to have the Horde’s cultural markers displayed more. This does not require Blizzard removing them from Cenarion Circle matters.
People often rebuttable with “Blizzard won’t put that kind of effort in,” but, in this matter, like you, I would not entertain the matter of what Blizzard won’t but rather what they should.
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That’s a fair retort, but just as I have to acknowledge that there’s something rotten about how Blizzard has chosen to portray the faction war - specifically through ubernarrative - I think we do have to acknowledge that there’s something rotten about a neutral faction that guts a playable race and induces the cannibalized portions of it to not care about the fate of the rest of it - such as what prevailed during Cataclysm. I think we also have to acknowledge that there’s something rotten about establishing an organization that holds NIght Elven druidism as “the way”, and ramrods that way upon the Tauren and the Trolls.
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Certainly. That is the case even for the new “Druids” of the Kul’Tirans and the Zandalari. Neither are actually shown related to the matters of nature. The Zandalari’s Druids are at best a military force concerned with defense of their home rather than to the care of nature itself. And despite the Thornspeakers’ catchphrases about the balance of life and death in nature, they don’t actually show any actual play into that balance or nature, instead being left as foils to the evil Drust who also don’t actually display any vital role in the nature of death and rather have just tried to usurp a mechanic of reincarnation to defy the nature of death. Leaving the Thornspeakers even in Shadowlands to be a means not to explore nature or balance or death but rather a means to deliver lines of “Have you checked the spooky ritual item the Drust are using?”
That is all certainly fine for them - that they have unique stories and unique enemies - and that they are not taken over by the Night Elf Aesthetic, but I don’t see that as helping the Tauren or the Trolls.
And as discussed the solution is to give the Tauren and Darkspear their own unique stories and unique elements, but does not require to remove them from Cenarion Circle matters.
Bringing things back to your proposal for Warsong Gulch, though, it seemed that Blizzard had been preparing a much simpler implementation of something similar to it during BfA along with the visual revamp that came to Warsong Gulch, as can be found from this ultimately unused voice over recordings at the 38:55 mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbo70jIs048&t=2335s
This would have narratively fit Warsong Gulch during BfA (and, timelessly, without context, it can still fit the gameplay of Warsong Gulch as it is), however, post BfA, I would rather the Night Elves have already gotten Ashenvale back, especially given that canonically after the Cataclysm the Night Elves had already won Warsong Gulch, as the Horde completely withdrew from Ashenvale after the Siege of Orgrimmar, as confirmed by Elegy and A Good War, and as such, I do not believe Warsong Gulch needs any new lore context. Not any more than say Spires of Ascension needs any new lore context, or any other instance content after one runs it for the first time for that matter.
Now, however, the other place that Warsong Gulch fits into the narrative is during the Cataclysm itself, and, with Chromie time, that time period is always accessible for leveling. There in the voice work and questing context could certainly be implemented, and could potentially be beneficial to players who would wish to level through Battlegrounds in that particular Chromie time. But then that is just adding to older lore, rather than expanding future lore.
That being said, as a player who hates PvP but has earned the Master of Warsong Gulch meta-achievement, I never want to step into Warsong Gulch personally ever again.
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First off - I want to point out what you’re doing here. You’re not only bringing up content that isn’t presented in visual media, you’re presenting material that isn’t even canon, and made it into no final version of any form of media. This is not enough to conclude that the problem has been resolved - not by a long shot.
Regarding Warsong Gulch, BFA put it back in play - and I would disagree with you - someone who in this post indicates that you hate PVP anyway - that Warsong Gulch simply doesn’t need any tie-in lore. I think it does in general, but post BFA, there is certainly room for that lore - which in this case would enrich the experience for those who choose to participate in it.
For those who don’t? For those who don’t like PVP - that’s okay, I think you should have the option to do something else.
I like BGs but (or perhaps because of that) I don’t see the need to tie them into lore. I play WSG because I like playing CTF, not because the night elves are my favourite race (though they are). Same for AV and AB (the only other good ones, Blizzard).
I’m in favour of old world content but don’t think more night elf vs. orc skirmishing in Ashenvale is worth developing, at the moment. Similarly I think trying to make the BGs ‘current’ is its own can of worms, unless we’re to believe the Forsaken are still trying to invade Gilneas and Arathi or that Frostwolves are skirmishing with the corpses of the Stormpike.
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I am not in fact doing what you’re claiming to point out what I’m doing. In linking the voice over work I am showing what methods Blizzard could take in implementing something similar to your proposal, if anything suggesting it is more possible than not.
As to your other point, there are likely significantly more players who enjoy PvP but do not care about lore who would likewise say that if you like lore you can do something other than PvP. Dismissing people with saying they have other options rather precludes discussion, it does not encourage it.
What everyone is forgetting here is that night elves don’t have just “one druid form”, they seem to have the most variety and complexity because they were and are the first druids, they even have the Zandalari theme partly in the form of war druids.
You could say that they are the most versatile because they are the first druids. Even Drust themes have been fulfilled by night elf druids, just remember the Wall of AQ, which was filled with runes, thorn walls, magic barriers, just like the Drust.
What distinguishes the Nightelves from the Drust and the Zandalari is their form and the origin of their teachings, but the certain skills they use are not alien to the night elves. no race on azeroth have longer druids then night elves, no single race, 10k years of teaching from the masters of druidism itself (Wild gods, Greendragons, even ysera) build up a big advantage of Druidism divercity.
Eh, I wouldn’t say Night Elf Druidism has that much variety. Studying under one Wild God or another that follows Cenarius’ ways is not really in practice any different, or even necessary, given that Druids can study under any number of Wild Gods they choose.
If anything, the most heavily Night Elf (rather than Wild God) themed Druids in gameplay are Balance Druids, but they have the least if any relevance to nature in lore at all. Their closest connection would actually be to Shamanism, in how the moons affect tides. Beyond that, though, for all of Elune’s name being used in the Balance Druid spec it doesn’t actually have anything to do with nature, what with instead being focused on making lasers and plasma blasts.
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You are just assuming that every Wild God is willing to teach students, as we know that is not the case with the Zandalari and Trolls, for example, and Gonk is an exception.
Despite centuries of being around the Celestial (Wild Gods), none of them had ever become a Druid. (Pandaren)
Of course, in theory, every Druid has the opportunity to learn from every Wild God, but the Wild God must be willing to do so. With the night elves, they had Cenarius and Malorne as advocates, which is why later the other Wild Gods of the Hyjal also agreed to accept students, without which the night elves would not have received this teaching. The connection to the Greendragons came about because of the pact between night elf druids and Ysera to heal the world. As we know, this was a joint effort between the Green Dragons - wild gods Hyjal - and the Night Elves to heal the ruined sections of the world, a process that continues to this day.
The night elfs follow different path, It even became so confusing that the creation of the Circle of Cenarius and rules became necessary, which at that time triggered the Worgen crisis in the war of the Sartyren, but the diversity and knowledge was still not lost. The night elve druids spent their millennia timelessly in dreams and learned the paths of nature, this diversity of knowledge and especially teachers had no other race to date.
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Hence why I specified Wild Gods that follow Cenarius’ ways.
You should not say Cenarius Way, that implies that they teach the same doctrines as Cenarius, which is not true, the doctrines differ from Wild god to Wild god. It is better to say that they followed Cenarius’ example.