Tip: Parsing doesn’t help your case when you use it to quote-mine and strawman. These are not the witty and wise arguments you think they are.
I never denied Xe’ra did it against his will.
Why do people keep trying to conflate Lightforging with sex? I could make some jokes about what Freud would say about this, but I’m not going to (assuming it doesn’t count as a personal attack).
I’m not glorifying the “victimizer” if I say something like this
Read the first five words above carefully.
Because you were consistent and not practicing double standards, this gets a like from me, Micah.
No, but you did say he should have just concented, as if the real problem was that he resisted, not that Xe’ra didn’t care about his opinion:
You seem to have a problem with saying what you mean, then sticking with it. Because the problem wasn’t “Illidan should have just gave his consent, then it wouldn’t be a problem”. The problem is Xe’ra didn’t give a crap about consent either way, and you have already stated the solution is just giving in, as shown above.
Because some people think that’s the only time consent matters, and seem to have an issue understanding how forcing things into a person’s body, whether it’s a sex part or not, is still a deep violation.
If those people did understand this, they wouldn’t call the one being violated “acting like an addict” for saying no.
If he consented, it wouldn’t be forced, how do you not understand that? Are you just one of those fans who absolutely hates the idea of “Illidan, Champion of the Light”? I think it would’ve taken very clever writing to pull that idea off; a very long shot, but possible.
Saying “if Illidan gives consent, it’s not forced” is different from making a values judgement about what “should” have happened.
I said accepting it was one of two solutions. The other was, quote;
So would forcing people to take medicine be a “deep violation”?
(before anyone jumps to conclusions - though I think a few will anyway, I’m not an anti-vaxxer, and I chose to take Pfizer)
Yrel’s own words from the same story team that gave us “DrAeNoR iS frEe!”, “Sylvanas ‘it’s bad unless she does it’ Windrunner did nothing wrong” and the steaming mess that is the lore of Shadowlands.
I love that you keep thinking this is a solution, actually.
“If Illidan acted entirely out of character and gave in to the forceful demands of the stranger trying to shove her gunk into him, this is a solution!”
Actually yes. And that’s why nobody is being restrained and forcefully vaccinated against their will. It’s why doing such things without a court order for a specific individual is illegal, and even those court ordered medication cases get frequently challanged and overturned for violating a person’s freedom.
Are you saying people SHOULD be restrained and vaccinated against their will? Are you saying that ISN’T a violation?
I think this ultimately does boil down to fundamentally different belief systems here. Because the Xe’ra - Illidan encounter is ultimately one of two opposing sides.
On one, you have a being who says the will of a higher power is absolute and forcing that will on another is fine.
On the other, you have someone saying their free will shall not be violated.
You have looked at the second one and called it edgelord gringe, acting like an addict, and a problem overcome by simply changing your entire worldview to fit the first group (or at least trying to talk down the first person, even after you’ve unsuccessfully tried to reject their forced conversion with words they didn’t give a flux about and instead kept insisting on it while also restraining you).
I’ll take that as a “yes” to my question about your feelings towards “Illidan, Champion of the Light”.
No, people shouldn’t be forced to take medicine.
If Illidan didn’t kill Xe’ra (he could’ve refused without killing her) and didn’t spout those cringe one-liners (including the ones from his “discussion” with Velen - Illidan saying “Where is your Army of the Light?” to Velen with that smug look was angsty 14 year old levels of writing), I wouldn’t have called Illidan or that cinematic edgelord.
To quote Obi-Wan: “Only in your mind, my very young Padawan.”
“Oh these other things were bad, so we should just retcon this other thing too, for some reason”?
And no, I don’t consider Yrel not holding a grudge for 30 years to be that terrible. I already mentioned how a conflict that stems from “members of group wronged me, so I hate all group now” would be tiresome. This is literally the exact thing people criticise Geyarah for.
Also, I’m not saying the Draenei *don’t * have legitimate grievances, it’s just that they are not the reason for the Light crusade.
It’s not “members of group wronged me, so I hate all group now”. Said group is being led by the one of the architects of those aforementioned wrongs done. Those legitimate grievances not being part of the war is bad writing. When AU Grom and Yrel had that final showdown, of the two of them, I was rooting for Yrel.
As you’ve proven before, you already take my answers to mean just about anything you want them to, regardless of what was actually said.
So needless to say, this time is no more a shock than the others.
He did. She kept going. When is self-defense acceptable to you? How violated should a person allow themselves to be before they fight their attacker?
Why is the onus of safety on the victim and not the attacker?
“It is not yours to take” RE: Xe’ra taking away his ability to choose his own life and instead choosing what life he must now lead, based on her interpretation of the Light.
“My destiny is my own” RE: Xe’ra telling him what destiny he must have because she said so.
I like how you say he should have protested verbally, but also call his actual verbal protests “cringe one-liners”.
… “I am my scars” is admittedly cringy edgelord crap, but one line does not make the others less valid.
Hey, who knows, maybe the orcs insisted that they judge Grom themselves and oopsie, he won the mak’gora, or something and they’re like “well, there’s literally nothing we can do now, he’ll have to walk free, sorry, it’s literally impossible to do anything :/”
I actually would take your answer to that question seriously. So again I ask, are you someone who hates the idea of “Illidan, Champion of the Light”?
The onus of safety isn’t on the victim. But to speak of self-defense, have you heard of “excessive force”?
Besides, what Xe’ra should have done if she wanted Illidan to accept Lightforging is tell him Tyrande would approve of it, or tell him that his brother is “actually” the chosen one.
Interestingly, the words Xe’ra said when trying to Lightforge Illidan were the same ones she said when Lightforging Turalyon in the story “A Thousand Years of War”, indicating they were just ceremonial. Also note that Turalyon is still able to question, disagree with and defy Xe’ra afterwards
If Xe’ra had said “Sometimes the hand of fate must be forced” before trying to Lightforge Illidan instead of “The prophecy must be fulfilled”, I could almost have enjoyed that cinematic.
I never said all Illidan’s lines in that cinematic were edgelord/cringe (we agree on “I aM mY sCaRs!”), but some of them were.
That would make sense… and still has the problem that the Mag’har would then have not let AU Grom’s past victims have a say in his trial.
There’s a difference between acknowledging and learning from one’s psat mistakes and refusing to move on from them. Scars fade, growth is important, you don’t have to let your past define you.
I’ll answer again by not answering and reminding you what we got was a naaru trying to shove her gunk into someone who said no, repeatedly.
I have. We watch in that cinematic as Illidan tries to fight the restraints and fails. He only breaks free when he has to commit to using full force.
Xe’ra forced the issue. Xe’ra would not relent. Xe’ra was going to go forward regardless of Illidan’s verbal non-consent or his physical actions to escape. His course was laid clear by Xe’ra’s actions; the only way she would stop was if she was made to stop.
Side note: Illidan cannot be held accountable for Xe’ra being so abnormally weaker compared to other naaru that she’d shatter the second she was eye beamed. No other naaru has been shown to be so weak.
oh snap thats funny
Alternatively, if Xe’ra wanted Illidan to accept his Lightforging, she could have talked to him like a reasonable windchime. I like how that is neither of the two options you’ve suggested would have resolved the situation better. “Illidan could have let her” or “Illidan could have just kept talking to her, even if she wasn’t listening when he did talk to her”.
No burden on the religious figure for forcing their will on another there. It’s the heretic’s fault for how they respond, they are the only one empowered to resolve the situation non-violently. The holy windchime just couldn’t help themselves, windchimes will be windchimes!
I doubt they are going to make Turalyon a true bad guy in the classic WoW mustache twirling way. I can see him becoming misguided by his Light-based convictions and a desire to do what he sees as “the greater good”.
Like what Renautus said, this is really gross. It sounds like you want Xe’ra to mock Illidan while forcefully Lightforging him. There would certainly be no moral high ground for Xe’ra there.