8.3 Thread

i think the question i want answered most at this point is where the overwhelmingly powerful army sylvia apparently had had come from and where it went

is it still a part of the horde? can the horde just crush the alliance whenever it wants? could it have crushed the alliance whenever it wanted when sylvia was warchief? did it leave with sylvia? is it multiracial or just undead? where did these undead come from? did sylvia raise them? are they all undead night elves?

like… this whole thing is such a joke, dude

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Turns out the next expansion is just an RTS and Sylvanas’ just starts out with like fourteen crypts and a ton of starting gold. Controlling the initial economy and ghoul rushes it becomes a major uphill battle for the opposition.

My expectations are so astronomically low.

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Its going to be some form of the Shadowlands leak. Too many pieces fit and Blizzard is super not clever or subtle.

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I mean to be fair that’s like asking why we can still go talk to the Lich King throughout certain quests in Northrend. It’s old content now. But they mention a few times that the conflict hasn’t been stamped out on all fronts yet. And let’s be honest, they’re never going to get rid of PvP. So… I feel like this one’s a bit of a no brainer to be honest xD

At the end of the day, I think PvP can be realistically explained away as the vengeance filled vigilantes of the war. Let’s be honest, there’s a lot about this war unresolved. I wouldn’t blame a lot of Alliance citizens for being unwilling to accept peace this time, and the Horde’s always got its fair share of warriors beating up their enemies, and caring for little else.

This is what I’m hoping they resolve in future story updates. We don’t even know who leads the Horde or the Forsaken atm, which is frustrating.

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Also I find this incredibly funny from a poster called Mistwight. XD

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i get that but its just so… bad, you know? you still have the wheels of a hardcore world war in motion while anduins cooing over what a good person saurfang was (which i could write an essay about what a horrifying message that sends, grumble grumble grumble)

like, its hard to take the apparent impact seriously when every other mechanical at war part of the expansion is still in full rotation. the wars over while a horde airship is shelling aroms stand is just… hard to reconcile, you know? moreover, its still ‘current’ content. we’re still in zandalar and kul tiras and will be for a while. and i think thats part of what makes it so odd. we’re not at the end of an expac, moving on to the next one. we’re still here.

i have no faith in any worldbuilding beyond confirming tyrande is a villain for seeking justice for genocide

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And remember kids, you’re a selfish cog in the Alliance if you worry about your own people first.

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It is a crime that I can’t do that voodoo that she do-do so well. I am personally affonted

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Guys I know the entire year and a half has been garbage after garbage but for no real reason I think everything is gonna be fine :+1:t2:

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I honestly don’t see how it’s any different from any other expansion though. Like, quest through Cata content and the war’s ongoing, plus Twilight Cultists are trying to beat us all up. Quest through MoP content and we’re all talking about Warchief Hellscream and painting continents red. Like… the whole world has never moved on with the current story. Even if we’re arguing current content, Garrosh was still sitting in Orgrimmar for over half a year after Siege. Didn’t stop people believing the war was over then. Legion invasions continued (and still continue) well after Sargeras had been defeated and we were doing 7.3.5 stuff. I guess my point is… .this is literally how it’s always been.

That’s going to be a tricky one honestly. Depending on what she does… it could be villainous. If she goes after Sylvanas and Nathanos, then great! If she goes after Horde races purely because of their race, that’s another story. Not every Horde citizen was involved or complicit in Teldrassil’s burning. It was a purely governmental issue.

I mean don’t get me wrong I hope she doesn’t glorify Saurfang or trust the Horde ever again, but how far does seeking justice go before it BECOMES villainy? It’s a tough question to answer, honestly. Like, honest question here, what WOULD be a fair reprisal for Tyrande? I honestly can’t see how they’re going to do it fairly, for either side.

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Here’s the issue though. Teldrassil was not just Sylvanas and Nathanos, it was the Horde.

Therein lies the problem, were WoW Warcraft 4 Teldrassil would have been the moral event horizon that cements the Horde as a villainous faction. Thats a problem because thats not what players who have been playing the Horde for years signed up for nor would it be fair or possible to punish players for a storyline they were railroaded into.

Whatever they do will be poorly written and unsatisfying because they wrote themselves into a corner by kicking off the expansion with a Horde perpetrated genocide.

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thats exactly what i mean, though. the expansion was done at that point, and from there the content became obsolete because we were already waiting for the release of the next one.

bofas not over yet, and faction invasions and everything else is still current content. its bizarre that the ceasefire would come now and not when its all old, obsolete content anyway.

thats exactly what theyve already set it up as, and thats exactly the problem. sylvia and nathan didnt commit the genocide at teldrassil alone. they didnt run up and down the shoreline firing the catapults, they didnt use their secret shamanic powers to fan the flames, and they didnt massacre their way through night elven lands to get there by themselves.

like, i get it, it sucks that the horde was made the villain. but the horde is responsible for the actions of the horde, and there has to be consequences.

“Genocide is forgivable because we were just following orders!” is such a horrifying message for blizzard to send, and i firmly and absolutely believe that it must be rebuffed in no uncertain terms.

i dont know. i think it would be precipitated on the fact that it has to be unfair, because teldrassil had alliance players be forced to fail and die, and then in the ‘reprisal’ at lordaeron, alliance players were forced to fail and die again.

and then the battle of dazar’alor, which has jaina as the final boss and ends with anduin mourning that theyre just as bad as the horde and its not actually a victory. and then sira, delaryn and the undead night elves to balance out tyrande getting a pointless ‘powerup’. (and the night elves triumphant return to their homeland being made moot) and then the final arc of the expansion have the alliance as a whole be entirely unimportant and present only because they have to be, with the revelation that sylvanas could have won the moment she chose to, and everything the alliance player has done up to that point having been an exercise in futility.

it sucks. it does. it really, really, does. but hordies got their ending, and got four lovingly crafted cinematics to assure them theyre the good guys and their story would be the driving force behind this expansion. every act, every arc and every part of this expansion has always gone out of its way to ensure horde players end up okay. either through there always being an upside to every defeat, or sylvanas doing just fine regardless.

tyrande has to fight the horde. she has to fight them, kill them, and win. unequivocally. there can be no ‘Yeah but (Jaina got her @ss kicked) or (A bunch of night elves got scourged and the forsaken still control the land) or (Saurfang saved Azeroth while the Alliance watched)’ and she cannot be made villainous for it.

she must have justice for the genocide the horde participated in and full throatedly supported. the message sent otherwise is too horrifying for a billion dollar, multinational corporation to support.

(sorry for the rant but damn dude am i tired of this expac)

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to be honest I joined the horde for the belves, otherwise I probably wouldn’t have downloaded the game at all.

though once we killed arthas I was all about fighting alliance

Thats fine, im sure there are plenty of people who liked the Horde for those reasons.

Personally I was exclusively Horde from Vanilla through about 2/3rds through mists. Even after I started playing Alliance more I never stopped enjoying and playing the Horde.

Until BfA, where I completely abandoned my Horde characters because of how utterly stupid and ridiculous the story was.

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The best outrage-quelling scenario I’ve heard suggested is one where Tyrande gets to wipe out a bunch of Sylvanas loyalist Horde - something where she can stomp all over them without the scenario getting shoved in the Horde player’s face.

Personally, I’d like a playable scenario (with at least one good cutscene) where the player helps Tyrande push the last loyalists out of Ashenvale (with the honor Horde troops having already left for their own goals), including fighting several NPCs who are identified as the main shaman/siege operators who burned Teldrassil.

(Bonus points if some honor Horde NPCs release some night elf prisoners rather than let the Sylvanas Horde keep them, because at least that would set up a few reasons for Tyrande not to go after the whole faction.)

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I guess that’s what I’m trying to work out here, though. Because I agree, Tyrande deserves justice and she deserves it in a way that ideally doesn’t make her seem like the bad guy.

But what is the Horde? Where does the vengeance stop? How far can she go before justice is met? This is a massively subjective thing. Is justice the arrest and execution of all people of rank who supported and did not speak out against Teldrassil? Do we include the ranks? Is it the execution of every soldier who marched on Darkshore? Is justice the mass extermination of a Horde city, as a reprisal? An eye for an eye, for the loss of Teldrassil? To what extent are the citizentry involved in the vengeance crusade, because by no means are all Horde citizens directly complicit in murder just because of what race they happen to be, or where they live. That’d be a disturbing message to send in and of itself, that certain peoples deserve execution because of what they look like and where they live. It’s horrifying either way.

My fear is that we’re either going to condone what the Horde did by saying “Oh no, Tyrande is warmongering” OR we’re going to have her seek the mass extermination of entire races. Both are horrifying prospects.

My honest hope is that we see (and sorry to bring real world history into this, but I feel it’s a relevant example) something akin to the N a z i Hunters that emerged in the aftermath of the Second World War, tracking down and bringing to trial significant people who were actually proven complicit in genocide, but had escaped justice. (The most notable case being that of Adolf Eichmann’s arrest). I feel like something akin to that would be justice, but the lines get blurry, because… well, every racial leader except Thrall was pretty much involved in some way.

Honestly, this is a really tricky situation. I dunno how Blizzard is going to get around it, honestly.

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Blizzard isnt going to get around it. All the blame is going to be laid at Sylvanas’ feet (just as it was for Garrosh) and Tyrande is going to be painted as a warmonger (just as Jaina was).

Blizzard doesnt deviate from its tropes and they wont now.

Just as I said back when the War of Thorns was first released. BfA will end with almost no one happy or satisfied and its entirely because they made the asinine decision to kick the expansion off with the Horde committing genocide.

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I mean, sure. They haven’t in the past. Though I actually highly enjoyed what they did with Jaina, I will say. She remains my favourite lore character, and they’ve done her transformation quite well imo. But what I’m trying to ascertain here is what would IDEALLY be justice?

Like, sure we can say “Blizzard’s not going to do it anyway” until the cows come home, but like… let’s just imagine for a moment that they can write a good story. What would be a satisfying result for Tyrande? I guess I’m trying to understand what Tyrande fans want - how they hope to have her receive justice without being considered a warmonger.

Edit: Forgive me, I’m not trying to discard the bad writing discussion, but we have it a lot. I guess I just want to figure out what path for Tyrande WOULD satisfy players. How far does she need to go for it to be justice? It’s more that I’m trying to discuss here than what Blizzard is or is not actually going to do. So far we haven’t even the foggiest notion of their plans, so I’m more in the theorising zone at the moment. XD

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I want them for impacting the world while changing the maps and stuff where they desperately need updates.