8.1 may be the end


(Gumble) #1
People are leaving, guilds look empty, friends list don't log on anymore, PTR looks horrible, Blizzcon is incredibly insulting to Blizzard fans....

Been a loyal Blizzard customer since vanilla..... been a Blizzard customer since Warcraft, Orcs vs Humans way back in middle school......

I'll be subbed til December 11th. If you can't turn this !@#$ around, I'm done with your company. Your cinematic team is amazing, however the game is going to %^-* and I'm seeing no effort to course correct.

Guess it has to come to an end at some point.

(Masoschism) #2
11/03/2018 05:45 PMPosted by Gumble
I'm seeing no effort to course correct.
I feel like there's both ego and communication problems. They are likely related issues. However it came about, changes need to happen to keep me at least as a customer.

11/03/2018 05:45 PMPosted by Gumble
Guess it has to come to an end at some point.
It doesn't have to be the end now. If they could just look at the boards once in a while and try to understand why we have so many #RevertToMoP threads, maybe they could understand that we DO want what we think we want.

Of course we don't really want to replay MoP (actually I wouldn't mind a MoP server). What we want is that complexity in class design. Everyone having basically the same tools actually REDUCED homogenization, because the complexity of a plethora of situational abilities, plus having areas where certain specs were just better at using certain tools made the classes play so different.

Go back.

Go back or die.

(Bheleu) #3
11/03/2018 05:57 PMPosted by Masoschism
Of course we don't really want to replay MoP (actually I wouldn't mind a MoP server). What we want is that complexity in class design. Everyone having basically the same tools actually REDUCED homogenization, because the complexity of a plethora of situational abilities, plus having areas where certain specs were just better at using certain tools made the classes play so different.
Exactly this. Revert us to MoP. I get that they cannot add skills and talents endlessly. Using MoP as a base, then give us the 'rental' abilities in Legion's artifacts or BfA's azerite.

But give us back the the decent characters we had back then. MoP was awesome. WoD was ok. I suffered through parts of Legion, my sub was on and off. BfA - my Hunter is now a 1 spec class. Ranged SV - gone. MM - useless. BM the only option. Haven't bought BfA, and can't see me doing so.

TV does it all the time - make the last few xpacs a 'dream' and start the next one with our classes as they were at the end of MoP - and build from there. I'd be thrilled to have my MoP SV hunter back, as it was at the end of MoP, just boosted to 120 ready to go into the next xpac.

(Dirtymind) #4
11/03/2018 05:45 PMPosted by Gumble
I'll be subbed til December 11th.

December 10th for me... my mains are a Shadow Priest and a Feral Druid. The two dps specs they ran out of time, didn't do a second pass in Beta and released with woefully underperforming damage.

4 months they knew they didn't complete the classes in beta, and they didn't bother to do a 8.0.5 patch to fix them. Handicapping players right out of the gate is brutally harsh, but more harsh their comment at Blizzcon just reflecting part of the blame for players... MY CLASS IS UNDERPERFORMING CAUSE YOU RAN OUT OF TIME!!!

Telling players to "Wait till Next Patch" is no longer appropriate Blizzard, a players chosen spec and class is the most personal experience a player has with the game, every button push is a class ability and every aspect of the game is competitive... handicapping classes and delaying class updates is NOT acceptable.

(Belerian) #5
To be fair: 8.1 surely is in development since before 8.0 launch...they can‘t just throw over the whole thing to cater to the customers.
8.2 is the earliest when we will see massive changes (if they are willing to do so, which nobody knows for sure).

Edit: this DOESN'T include class changes...there has to be done something for 8.1 or there won't be much people around for 8.2.

(Delofasht) #6
The short of it is that they spread the specialization design elements into gear when they should not. Instead of combining the effects they have pruned out of our class specs into the buttons they did leave us, they put those effects into gear. That was an unusual choice as that then makes many specs broken unless appropriately geared.

As a side effect of that decision, gearing options end up being far more limited. This couples with buttons having impact when we push them, far too many of our buttons feel boring because there little impact when we do push them. An example would be Corruption, there is no impact to pushing the button at all, merely boring damage and not even good damage on its own. There are numerous boring buttons like this across all the specs, stuff that should feel important to push, but unless one grabs talents and gear pieces to make those boring buttons feel interesting they simply are terrible on their own.

Now imagine that the above Corruption is now applying a slow baseline (used to be on gear in Legion). The spell becomes more valuable to press and in AoE packs applying it via Seed is strong. Well, the effect may be too strong baseline and spammable one might say... give it a short CD, 6 seconds or so (Seed already has a cast time, flight time, delayed pop so it doesn’t need a CD) . Well then the spell is too weak again since it’s base damage is low, boost that or add yet another effect from the list (maybe casting it on a target already afflicted by it procs an instant cast shadowbolt). Boom, two interesting effects added to a button that is core with a small change in functionality and the spec already is more interesting.

Such changes could be done across the board in so many ways, combining talents and traits into the baseline with changes designed to make each spec feel really strong right from the start. Then the talents and traits can be used to exchange some effects for more raw damage or adding even more impact to a button but increasing a cooldown or other thing like that. Becoming choices focused on paring down our abilities in exchange for more power in very specific situations. Functionally flipping the design we have upside down, instead of using gearing to fix specs we are then using gear to make us stronger in certain content.

(Kharn) #7
Thing is, there is no attempt to course correct cause the guy in charge. Ion 'Elitist Jerk' Hazzikostas is an egotistical dumpster fire.

He won't change anything because that involves admitting his entire design philosophy, and therefor his entire tenure at Blizzard, was a mistake.

He'd rather drive the game into the dirt, than admit he screwed up.

Period the end.

My sub runs out at the end of this month roughly. Gonna admit I won't miss what he has made of what was once a great game.

Rest in peace WoW.... you didn't die, you were MURDERED.

(Dirtymind) #8
11/04/2018 04:45 AMPosted by Belerian
To be fair: 8.1 surely is in development since before 8.0 launch...they can‘t just throw over the whole thing to cater to the customers.
8.2 is the earliest when we will see massive changes (if they are willing to do so, which nobody knows for sure).

No I wont be fair, waiting for 8.1 was me being fair, I was told to wait till next patch and what they delivery is underwhelming... June 14 Ion said they missed the window to do second passes on at least 5 dps specs (my mains were 2 of them)... we waited 5 months from then to 8.1 is expected to go live!

A new expansion is suppose to be exhausting exhilaration of new content, not a depressive player experience as your favorite toon is handicapped out of most competitive content due to under performance.

and your suggest 8.2 is the earliest for massive changes... so the goal of actually having an acceptable playable experience for all players regardless of class/spec is 8 months to a year (thats half the expansion). NOPE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, I am not waiting another patch (after the one we don't have yet)

(Varrow) #9
There are some definite issues with class design, I won't defend them on that. BUT, they are changing a ton of stuff based around feedback in 8.1

1. Movement & Utility abilities are being taken back off the GCD
2. New Azerite traits are a lot cooler, the extra ring on all armor opens up availability and choice through the whole system
3. The new Azerite vendor is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm not so sure about the current tuning of the pacing
4. Islands are getting a vendor, more rewards, redesigned a bit as well (??), not sure the specifics, but they are addressing feedback
5. There are some good class changes (prot warrior, WW Monk, probably more?)
6. Paragon boxes are back
7. Invasion style events are back

Is there more to do? Sure. Have I mentioned everything? Almost certainly not. Are they listening and addressing feedback? Yes. Do they still need better communication? Yes.

My only other real complaint is I hope M+ becomes more fun, I've not been enjoying it too much so far. Both from a reward standpoint and a gameplay standpoint. I also hope the island expedition stuff actually makes them enjoyable to do.

(Berliozz) #10
November 15th for me. I had enought of:

-No character progression:
If ilvl is so important, I don't feel rewarded when I open for the third time in a row the same item from the weekly caches.
-Class design:
Every class has the same tools and the experience of playing feels clunky and boring. When I was playing with my DK I used to feel like Darth Vader itself.
-Azerite power
-Broken classes or destroyed classes, there is no between.

(Eddyv) #11
The fact they acknowledge that the game isn’t as fun as they intended for and having some classes be stripped down so a handful of abilities really isn’t fun.

This doesn’t mean MoP is better than anything we can come up with in the future (it definitely isn’t). To get MoP level complexity, ability bloat existed and you don’t have to have one to get the other.

Our goal should be a diverse set of utility and dps rotations for all classes that are sufficiently deep. The harder the rotation the better rewarded a player should be for that. Currently some of the most complex specs/rotations are not sufficiently rewarded.

Survival with WFI is a class that adds complexity to a damage rotation without tons of ability bloat.
Frost mage with flurry shattering is very similar.

Blizzard should strive for deep spell interactions, not slapping more abilities into the game.
A lot of what made MoP complex were the same things that made Wrath and Cata. ICD proc trinkets you could min max around and Dot snapshotting.

TL;DR: Classes that lack utility need some added through base kits not PvP talents and azerite traits. Focus on spell/ability interactions to increase complexity, not adding in more dps abilities.

(Roujeaux) #12
A public, permanent shift in design philosophy to always preserve the most popular, balanceable past class mechanics iterations when making any modern class design decision is the primary thing needed to turn around this immense backlash on the state of classes. People are tired of change just for the sake of change that ultimately makes things feel worse. It will only get worse going forward the more obstinate the devs become about it. The fact Blizzard is so hesitant and resistant to make this a reality is very telling of how they feel about you and your feedback as a customer.

Treat class mechanics more like player models, and most of the player outrage goes away. It really is that simple. Your move, Blizzard.

(Magmir) #13
11/04/2018 05:56 AMPosted by Varrow
There are some definite issues with class design, I won't defend them on that. BUT, they are changing a ton of stuff based around feedback in 8.1

1. Movement & Utility abilities are being taken back off the GCD
2. New Azerite traits are a lot cooler, the extra ring on all armor opens up availability and choice through the whole system
3. The new Azerite vendor is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm not so sure about the current tuning of the pacing
4. Islands are getting a vendor, more rewards, redesigned a bit as well (??), not sure the specifics, but they are addressing feedback
5. There are some good class changes (prot warrior, WW Monk, probably more?)
6. Paragon boxes are back
7. Invasion style events are back

Is there more to do? Sure. Have I mentioned everything? Almost certainly not. Are they listening and addressing feedback? Yes. Do they still need better communication? Yes.

My only other real complaint is I hope M+ becomes more fun, I've not been enjoying it too much so far. Both from a reward standpoint and a gameplay standpoint. I also hope the island expedition stuff actually makes them enjoyable to do.

(Fantan) #14
11/04/2018 05:56 AMPosted by Varrow
There are some definite issues with class design, I won't defend them on that. BUT, they are changing a ton of stuff based around feedback in 8.1

1. Movement & Utility abilities are being taken back off the GCD
2. New Azerite traits are a lot cooler, the extra ring on all armor opens up availability and choice through the whole system
3. The new Azerite vendor is definitely a step in the right direction, but I'm not so sure about the current tuning of the pacing
4. Islands are getting a vendor, more rewards, redesigned a bit as well (??), not sure the specifics, but they are addressing feedback
5. There are some good class changes (prot warrior, WW Monk, probably more?)
6. Paragon boxes are back
7. Invasion style events are back

Is there more to do? Sure. Have I mentioned everything? Almost certainly not. Are they listening and addressing feedback? Yes. Do they still need better communication? Yes.

My only other real complaint is I hope M+ becomes more fun, I've not been enjoying it too much so far. Both from a reward standpoint and a gameplay standpoint. I also hope the island expedition stuff actually makes them enjoyable to do.


As far as WW monk is concerned, the change to Touch of Karma is good. They are gutting it's damage and it's already middle of the pack. They don't seem to know what they are doing with Fists of Fury, and the rest of the class outside of Touch of Karma, and Touch of Death is not good. WW needs more than number tweaks. That can be said for a lot of classes. A LOT of them.

(Prisse) #15
It isn't Blizzard anymore, it's just a name.

(Valamandil) #16
Earlier this week I decided I would run a random heroic dungeon as a healer. It took 5 minutes just for the queue timer to appear and it said it would be an estimated 20 minutes before the queue would pop. Legion was pretty bad, but even then as a healer you could always get a heroic dungeon to pop within 5 minutes. This is just one of several metrics that can be used to see how sick the game is right now.

Blizzard, to check the health of your game check these metrics:
-Game time played this level (in comparison with previous expansions)
-How long it takes for a queue to pop for random instances (heroic dungeons, island expeditions, LFR, battlegrounds, etc.).
-Cancelled subscriptions

These are all metrics that should be easy to track (since the game is already tracking 2 of the 3 and your accounting department should have the 3rd).

The first step to fixing the problem is admitting there is a problem. No more "You think you do, but you don't". That only works if the game is still FUN (heh, I used the "F" word).

(Sybille) #17
I’m just frustrated. Maybe part of it is the masive cold Imtrying to get over. The game and expansion has a really good story right now. I just can’t seem to enjoy it because characters aren’t fun to play.

(Iamobese) #18
diablo immortal is the wow killer guys!!

(Varrow) #19
11/04/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Fantan
As far as WW monk is concerned, the change to Touch of Karma is good. They are gutting it's damage and it's already middle of the pack. They don't seem to know what they are doing with Fists of Fury, and the rest of the class outside of Touch of Karma, and Touch of Death is not good. WW needs more than number tweaks. That can be said for a lot of classes. A LOT of them.


I admit I just play my monk very casually, but to me the Karma/Touch of Death being such an absurd amount of damage right now causes a lot of the frustration for me. WW got like a 8% aura buff so far I think? To make up for losing karma/death damage.

The pacing is maybe just barely off, but the gameplay of the spec feels fairly similar to Legion to me in a lot of ways? It's just been balanced all wonky. And I do still hate the gcd stuff with Xuen/SEF/ToD and still trying to generate Chi in there too during cooldowns. That feels bad for sure.

(Ehelolx) #20
The content they teased on blizzcon seems very nice, I personally love beautiful water zones but the class design just bottlenecks any sense of fun. The 8.1 changes aren't enough and it just shows how out of touch they are tbh. If they can't make anything fun with classes they could just revert them back to previous iterations but I think this new team is exceedingly arrogant and won't do so.

Sub runs out 7th november and I won't come back until class design is fixed. Even WoD was more fun, at least then the amount of content was the downside and not the gameplay.