8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion


(Masoschism) #166

I’m fairly certain you either didn’t read what I wrote or didn’t understand it. Everything I said was factual. No, I didn’t give my actual cast time. Obviously 2.5 seconds is before haste. That goes without saying, which is why I didn’t say it. 2.5s gives context to aid in understanding the analysis; every ability is reduced by haste. Any other number would have only added confusion.

There is a huge difference between “full mobility” and the curret situation where the minority of our damage is mobile.

MM has almost always been most of our damage as mobile. It currently is not despite the fact that almost all of our toolkit is designed to be mobile. There is a very good reason why MM is absolutely awful in organized PvP. I am helping elucidate a big part of that reason. Precise Shots plays a much larger part than people realize (case in point).

Precise Shots requires absolutely no thought or skill. You cast it immediately after Aimed Shot. You can choose NOT to cast it immediately after Aimed Shot, but the only reason you would not is if you don’t have the focus or you need to make a target switch. Those decisions are almost ALWAYS trivial, thus require zero skill.

If it was in its own shot (like it was for almost a decade (Chimera Shot) you can choose to use Chimera Shot on CD, or save it for right after Aimed Shot to increase burst, or use it by itself for mobile damage, etc. All of these are non trivial decisions, thus increase skill substantially.

Arcane Shot IS purely a resource spender. Precise Shots is something different entirely. It is a proc that uses the same button as Arcane Shot. That is all they have in common. You make decisions on whether or not to use Arcane Shot based on saving focus for other things. You don’t make those decisions on Precise Shots for the reasons I said above. Precise Shots DPCT and DPF are too high to allow for any decisions, you simply use it right after Aimed Shot because to do anything else is foolish.

The “synergy” you speak of is contrived, because there is no real choice involved. An example of REAL synergy in MM was Chimera Shot’s interaction with our various stings. There was real choice there, and real effects that were greater than the sum of their parts. Precise Shots has none of that.

I promise you it is the opposite of my intent to degenerate baseline gameplay. My statements are based on 14 years of experience playing the class in both PvE and PvP as well as 6 months of beta testing for this expansion and several months of numerical and data analysis (which is my job) that I performed on this, my favorite spec.


(Rockford) #167

Yet your solution is to remove a synergy (albeit rather weak), into a 10sec cooldown. Do you not understand that’s even more trivial for a player, yet alone for those of us who PvE?

Being that it would be tuned higher than Arcane (because otherwise it’d be obsolete), it’d become a dps loss in holding it as opposed to saving for opportune moments. Every second it being on CD means that it is not charging for another application.

Sure, delude yourself into thinking a 10sec shot isn’t trivial! But you’ve created at situation that a player needs to use on CD to not loose potential dps. Congrats!

It’s a proc resource pushing the player into a cause and effect.

Given the proc allows the player to weave other abilities around it’s use, it’s far, far more interesting than something you press every 10sec without any thought to synergy. Yes, Precise Shots doesn’t need much thought to use, but a 10sec CD that becomes wasted DPS if left on hold is simply idiotic!!! Being a data analyst, you should know this very, very simple concept!!!

And if you hadn’t noticed, the game, classes, content and requirements of what is needed has changed significantly in that 14 years. I have been in this game since the very start, including multiple betas, and a career in related fields of game development!

Your favourite spec, of which you’ve only played a fraction of the content, and you’re dictating that a idiotic 10sec Chimera Shot (which needs to be used on CD to prevent lost DPS, as opposed to a proc that is held on the player), is a better option.

Data analysis, sure. But you have absolutely no idea on what is/isn’t enjoyable behind this spec, or the game at large!!!


(Kajeron) #168

I think your blowing this a little out of porportion. Aimed shot has like what a 12 second cooldown. That’s roughly 8 globals. One or Two of which are taken up by precise shots. Those will not go away soon. You can easily bank those after an aimed shot and use what ever other ability you want.


(Kajeron) #169

I will take the current iteration of precise shots over the old chim shot any day. Having to use 1ability on cd or drop in dps was rather uninspiring, boring, and made the rest of the rotation boring.


(Xaedys) #170

Small correction, Rapid Fire actually takes priority over Precise Shots. Despite the fact that Precise Shots deals more DPCT, Rapid Fire being off CD is an active DPS loss, while delaying Precise Shots doesn’t become one unless you fail to utilize it or cast Aimed Shot again before fully discharging the stacks. If Rapid Fire is off CD by the time Aimed finishes, or you get 2 Precise Shots charges and RF comes off CD after the first (or got reset by Aimed), using RF before Arcane in that situation is a DPS gain.

Now personally, I rather enjoy the 1-2 punch that is Aimed + Precise. I do, however, see little reasoning behind the RNG 2nd charge, and that 2nd charge is a fair chunk of the distortion in talent value that you specify. Removing that second charge would open up ~the same ~3 GCDs per minute and 45 of your 65 focus. And honestly, between Surging Shots and, if desired, Lock and Load, MM still has a reasonable amount of RNG in the rotation. That said, I’d love to see something like a streamlined version of Marked Shot, where auto-shots have a chance to mark the target, directly allowing Marked Shot to be cast. That would liven up the rotation without causing too much disruption, especially if it were a low focus cost and reasonably limited proc rate (likely no more than about 2 PPM, but that’d also let it be tuned to hit fairly hard).


(Masoschism) #171

I disagree. I believe it adds choices where we currently have none. The opportunity to make choices, and thus mistakes for bad choices, adds skill to a spec that is currently severely lacking in skill. Losing the illusion of synergy is a very small price to pay. If it was actual synergy I would almost certainly agree with you. A point I think you are missing (that is among the most important) is that Precise Shots negates the ability to take talents that cost focus and globals because of how math works. I tried to be clear about that, but the fact that you have skipped that very important issue makes me think you didn’t actually read what I wrote. I’d say that is also a fair bit more important than pretend synergy.

Absolutely. This is where choice comes into play. There exist circumstances (especially in PvP, but also in PvE) where despite the fact that it is a DPS loss to hold onto a charge, it still might be beneficial to do so. That fact is awesome. We currently have that in Rapid Fire, but that is really not enough. It is also challenging to get the casts off perfectly timed with the CD, which again brings another level of skill. Skill trumps pretend synergy.

This is how it played for 8 years when MM was among the most popular specs in the game (very much opposed to the current situation). Why are you freaking out as if its the worst possible thing ever?

It wasn’t intended to be a pissing contest. You were dismissing my post because I haven’t done a lot of current end game PvE content. I was trying to give you some context about my full point of view.

Your right. Many hundreds of days played between 7 hunters gives me “no idea.” I don’t raid very much currently, but that doesn’t mean I don’t play the game. It doesn’t mean I haven’t spent years of my life raiding. I believe you are focusing on too small a thing. Spend your time responding to what I say, not what you think I should know based on conclusions drawn from incomplete data.


(Masoschism) #172

Yes, I didn’t want to over-complicate the situation by giving such a detailed explanation, but you are of course correct.

I don’t disagree. It is satisfying. That exact same satisfaction could be accomplished by a shot that is separated from Aimed Shot on a similar CD, while freeing up a large chunk of our damage from the stand still requirement as well as all the other problems such a mechanic would solve.

Yes, I agree with this and have suggested this as a solution before. That only solves that one issue however, not the other that plays a tremendous part in PvP, nor the issue with making Arcane feel weak by itself.

Surging Shots is nice, LnL is rarely taken because it just isn’t good enough. Like many other aspects of the current MM, it one of those things that could be great but just isn’t.

I would actually rather see this than a return of Chimera or some equivalent. My favorite suggestion is to remove Precise Shots and put that damage into this type of ability (of a damage type or physical damage that bypasses armor). This would allow for more procs per minute (5-6), which would solve all the problems and would be quite fun, including allowing for that instant shot after Aimed for max burst that is the only good thing about Precise Shots. With Precise Shots its an illusion of choice though, with something like this it would be an actual choice.

Marked Shot (the mechanics of the shot, not the Vulnerable part) was my favorite part of Legion MM; especially its interaction with AoE. If it’s damage was all of what Precise Shots currently does it would hit fairly hard even at that proc rate (about 1.5 times current Precise Shots). I think that would be very satisfying.

Edit: I addition, this particular change would also allow LnL to get about double the proc chance for the same DPS, since it would be divorced from Precise Shots. That would make that talent a lot more fun.


(Rockford) #173


Is another, more experienced hunter on current content in your collection?

Thing is, current design is very, very different to earlier iterations of MM. There are vastly different demands and content types which specs are now expected to perform at some level. Granted, there are issues with MM, but replacing a flexible Precise Shots buff with a 10sec CD is absolutely lazy, boring design.

And that may well be the case in PvP. I’d even suggest to ask for a PvP talent that replaces Precise Shots for a sterile 10sec option. In PvE, this is no choice in what you offer. 10sec CD (assuming it’s instant, and of higher damage than our fillers), would 100% be used on CD/proc. No choice, decision, synergy or skill. You press that button, or you’re losing dps!!! Even added procs (does it have a charge system now), that is lost dps if left off CD for any amount of time, with the spec then tuned around that lost dps.

And the fact that you are not pushing content, signifies that you have no solid understanding of why a player would need to do so in current systems as again, the game is very, very different to past expansions where you may have pushed content.

In PvP, I can absolutely appreciate where you’d want to hold onto a shot for opportune moments. In a PvE setting, you’re using that ability on CD, or it’s dps that is lost in a very competitive setting. Precise Shots allows that player to weave that damage through other abilities, and apply when needed.

With Arcane Shot in mind, is there ever a moment you’d prefer to use an unbuffed shot as opposed to one with Precise Shots?

It was absolutely intended as a pissing contest! And you’re well out of your depth in the case of context for your point of view. Though tbh, one doesn’t need to see past experience that your complaints are largely flawed. Many hundreds of hours played mean nothing if you’re not pushing some type of content, then dictating how a spec should be designed.

Again, yes, there are issues. Precise Shots is quite low in priority in rectifying those problems (if at all).


(Masoschism) #174

Its really not.

Its all just numbers. Numbers are easy.

Precise Shots is the exact opposite of “flexible.” It is as rigid as they come. There Is no choice in Precise Shots. I don’t get where you are coming from with your love of this ability. What do you like about it?

You are conflating current game play with how a spec plays. They have nothing to do with each other. What DOES matter in that regard are things like our AoE only working at 3 targets or greater. But Precise Shots? Absolutely not. Give me one instance where that actually has anything to do with ANYTHING in current content.

Lets say you are about to get an add that needs to be downed quickly. You might choose to save that CD for that purpose. That is choice. Lets say you are a second before that ability comes off CD but are about to cap focus; do you wait for the CD or do you cast an Arcane delaying your high damage shot by half a second. The right choice increases your DPS, the wrong choice decreases it. That is skill. We have to make a similar decision currently with Rapid Fire. This is not a new thing. Every class has to make that kind of decision currently. Your attempt to conflate such decisions with “current content of which I know nothing about” is trying to use an ad hominem attack instead of logic to make your case.

You can say that, but that doesn’t make it true, and you have not provided evidence to support your statement, only attacks on my knowledge to which I say, do better at making your case.

You still have completely ignored the issue of it causing 55% of our damage to be immobile and the separate issue that it interferes with us taking talents that use focus and globals.


(Rockford) #175

Then you’ve clearly shown ignorance that numbers do not equal enjoyment in gameplay. And to think current design is not different to early hammers that point even further.

There Is no choice in a 10sec cooldown.
See, I can play the bold game too.

I’m not especially fond of Precise, but there is choice of where it can be used as opposed to a 10sec CD, where you’re able to weave it into other shots, instead of your “solution” of a 10sec Chimera Shot that a PvE player would need to use on use on CD.

Are you even a data analyst?
Can you not understand that a rotational CD that isn’t on cooldown is effectively lost dps?!?

And if you were arguing that point (Trick Shots), I’d absolutely 100% agree, you’re pushing for an idiotic solution for a trivial issue in removing Precise shots for a CD!

And you will have that exact issue with a cooldown.
Do you hold on to it? Lost dps.
Remember, specs are tuned around their highest potential output. Much like Rapid Fire, if you’re sitting on a CD, that’s lost dps!!! But of course, you don’t understand that, so I equate this to not having experience in current content, or that you’re not understanding the very basics of numbers. Being that you’re supposedly in data analysis, I have to come to the conclusion that you’ve no understanding in how PvE content is handled, and that players do not delay cooldowns.

It’s quite simple. As someone who doesn’t necessarily push any content, and is demanding change without knowledge that specs and content have significantly changed since earlier iterations of the spec, one has to think that someone who had stated they had “14 years of experience playing the class in both PvE and PvP as well as 6 months of beta testing for this expansion and several months of numerical and data analysis (which is my job)”, and “many hundreds of days played between 7 hunters” was trying to qualify their experience with the game, yet have no recent understanding of the current demands of gameplay or content.

Not at all, it just isn’t my issue that you’re seeking to rectify this with a 10sec cooldown. As for Precise vs talent that do use resources, you might need to consider how those abilities sit in regard to priority, and know that with a Precise Shots buff, abilities and talents are able to woven as necessary.

With that said, after running around in circles with this argument, and you clearly not understanding that a 10sec CD offers no choice in today’s meta, I am cutting the cord in helping you understand that if you are indeed wanting to rectify said issues with Precise Shots (it isn’t perfect), developers would do so much better than introducing a 10sec CD that is always activated whenever available, lest the player suffer lost dps.


(Masoschism) #176

All I will say in response is, I have made this statement several times. I have used it to explain how it introduces skill into the spec several times. You are obviously not actually reading what I am writing, or are at least not understanding it. I will not blame you for that. That could be my fault, but for whatever reason you are completely clueless as to what my arguments actually are.

This is all I will say because your favorite recourse is to not address my points but rather to attack me without provocation or foundation. So from my perspective, that is that.


(Airese) #177

As I have mentioned somewhere in the past… If blizzard intends to keep LnL as talent, then replace precise shot with, lets call it Marked shot or Head shot, where it procs off Arcane shot and Multi shot.

Precise shot is bland imo. Hardly anything exciting about it. It is just a buff to something we are going to use regardless.


(Kajeron) #178

This would indeed varry up the least important part of the rotation but i don’t think it would feel good. One problem of legion was dependence on rng. This would bring back fishing for procs. Most of your damage would come from aimed shot but it would still feel bad if you come up short on procs in your down time. Also it would essentially be the same thing spam arcane and mash the other button when it lights up.

It would also break the rotation. You would just cast aimed shot back to back and then gave a large period of down time. Piercing shots currently incentivises spacing out aimed shot casts while outside of trueshot. This makes the spec flow more.

There currently is an interesting dynamic of balancing gaining focus for the next aimed shot or using arcane for extra dmg and reducing the cooldown of trueshot. I think this often goes unnoticed.


(Airese) #179

I am not a theorycrafter, so I am not going to dive into detailed numerical world.

Personally, precise shot is bland. With proper tuning, I believe that you can have marked or headshot at a lower priority than aimed shot and rapid fire.


(Kajeron) #180

I am not going into numbers either. I don’t want to belabor the point or force you to agree with me, but don’t think i made my point clear.

I agree that it is possible to make what you say. However i don’t think that will be revived well. Even if you balance it so that the main source of damage is from aimed shot and rapid fire the negative feeling of fishing for procs will bubble to the surface.

Players would fixate on how bad a dry spell feels when aimed shot is on cooldown. Even if the variance is say 1-5% of your overall dps players would still feel like the spec is dominated by rng.

In short i think the negative of fishing for procs would be worse then the deterministic but “bland” precise shots.


(Masoschism) #181

If it was Arcane Shot that made it proc that would be problematic for the reason you stated. It would need to be on autoshot or every time you hit something.

You would have to be able to store procs to at least two, otherwise there would be no decisions, you would absolutely HAVE to press it as soon as it pops up to avoid missing another proc. I agree that would not be fun and even less skillful than Precise Shots.

I don’t think this would be the case at all. You cast Aimed Shot when you can. And you never know when you will get a proc, so you would want to save some focus for it. It’s difficult to say exactly how it would work out since the numbers and focus regeneration are not the same as in Legion, but I am fairly certain it would be very dynamic.

Assuming it didn’t proc off of Arcane Shot, but as I stated above, I don’t think this would change one bit.


(Kajeron) #182

Ok so i think there are a lot of permutations of this system that i just don’t have the time to address. Here are the questions that i see. Does using the proc do more damage then aimed shot. Does the proc get triggered by arcane shot, auto shot, other method. Can you store or bank procs.

I think that each of these permutations would be worse then what we currently have for different reasons. The spirit of them are all the same hower, a dynamic playstyle as compared to the current deterministic one.

I do not think precise shots is the issue, rather the current dynamic option (LnL) Does not proc often enough and is not rotationally impactful. The other currently existing option of Surging shots is overshadowed by more effective azerite traits.

I would challenge you to explore surging shots and Lethal Shots playstyle as it would be dynamic in nature and it would be easier to number tune those then add a new mechanic.

That said i think its fair to advocate the current dynamic playstyle talents and traits are lack luster. It is also unfair to advocate for replacing a more deterministic rotation with a dynamic one when they could both exist.


(Masoschism) #183

I’m a little confused as to what you are saying. Are you saying these are all variables? I stated clearly (I thought) that they would not be variables for any implementation that addressed all the issues. To be clear, for this to work:

  • It must be triggered by something that does not encourage fishing for procs. That means Autoshot, or everytime you hit something. It could even potentially be a damage based proc, where how much damage you do on any one ability increases the proc chance (a little). That might be interesting and increase burst a little, giving a satisfying proc after a big Aimed Shot. That last is an idea I just had, I haven’t fully thought about it.
  • You would have to be able to bank shots (at least up to two) or there would be no choice involved, it would be whack-o’-mole which isn’t fun for anyone…
  • I’m not sure where it should be on the priority list (how much damage it does). I can see arguments for anywhere in the list tbo. I think it would be fun regardless. It would only need to be higher than Arcane Shot (by a fair bit).

If you could store procs (which I insist is required) and the procs are often enough (similar to Marked Shot at the end of Legion) there would be elements of deterministic and dynamic playstyles. I think that’s a great thing.

Precise Shots is the issue because it breaks the math of the spec and makes a tremendous amount of our damage immobile. The fact that it also makes regular Arcane Shot feel super weak and is completely lacking in all skill or choice is actually a secondary concern, but a concern nonetheless. It NEEDS to be fixed for the first two reasons, it should be fixed (imo) for the others.

Lethal Shots is awful because it is random in nature. If it was 1s off per Arcane it would be a whole lot more fun. Some types of random are fun, Lethal Shots doesn’t make the cut. Of course that is my opinion, but I have seen similar statements made by many people and no dissension.

LnL on the other hand is the right type of “randomness” (if it procced more). What I am talking about is exactly the same as LnL and nothing at all like Lethal Shots.

The numbers are easy. You take all the damage that Precise Shots currently does (~20% of our damage) and you put that into this new shot. For example, lets say you do 1 million damage in a minute (16.7k DPS). 20% of that is 200,000 damage. Divide that up by the average number of procs (say 5/min) that’s 40,000 damage per shot (on average). If you average 25% crits per shot, that’s 33,000 before crits. That seems reasonable. If that’s too much burst, increase it to 6 ppm. Then its 27,000 non-crit. Both of those seem about right. The math is easy because you are only changing damage from one source to another.

First, its not “unfair,” it may just be something you don’t want. I totally appreciate that, but call a spade a spade. Second, I am strongly advocating for a rotation with both, not one or the other. More important though, I am advocating for the addition of an ability that is both. The proc chance would be high enough that it is reliable, but low enough that it isn’t constant (Marked Shots frequency did that really well). The ability to stack it to two gives you choice, which equates to skill, fun, and agency. Precise Shots at best gives one out of those three.


(Bertimus) #184

Yeah, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on precise shots.


(Masoschism) #185

You can’t disagree that it breaks the math of the spec by making it a DPS loss to take talents that cost focus and globals. That’s just math, that’s not opinion.

You can’t disagree that it puts a ton of our damage into immobile damage. That again is just math, not opinion.