8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion


(Kajeron) #146

That could be a compelling choice if done right. I am all for having one more pvp, and one moor pve talent in the same row


(Bertimus) #147

Ok… any day now right? We shouldn’t be into build 3 of PTR before seeing something. I’m uncomfortable. Somebody hold me.


(Masoschism) #148

/hug

It’s either have faith, or cry. I will choose to have faith because I’m all cried out.


(Kajeron) #149

I will be surprised if mm gets anything. Personally as a mm hunter i would rather see guardian druid changes.

Maybe when 8.2 comes you can augment your eyes to refill tears :stuck_out_tongue:. It feels like the priority is on tank balance atm.


(Masoschism) #150

I’m giving it 50/50 odds (in my head). On the one hand they haven’t seemed to care overmuch so far, on the other hand MM is completely unrepresented in all forms of organized PvP at the level where an MM can even get higher end gear (1800).

This second part adds to the overwhelming amount of data that supports MM as the worst spec in the game in organized PvP by a large margin. It is my hope that they might care because there is so much data to corroborate our ubiquitous and constant negative feedback.

I also have hope because they recently buffed Sub for PvP, and while Sub is doing very poorly, it is still much higher on every single totem pole than MM, so maybe.

Heresy!!

And also… What?

True. Hopefully they are taking a “one thing at a time” approach. I can wait. I will say if 8.2 doesn’t make MM at least possible to play in organized PvP I will very likely not see 8.2 (or 8.3).


(Kajeron) #151

My buddy is a feral druid and its rough seeing him have to switch.

I have been out of pvp for a while but it would be nice to feel like i have a chance.


(Myras) #152

Pretty sure they stated there would be no gameplay changes for the classes, only numbers tuning and adjustments.


(Masoschism) #153

This is ambiguous. Changing numbers, or fixing abilities that aren’t working (or aren’t working well enough) ARE gameplay changes if they cause us to play differently. Such things can actually be quite substantial.

For example, something as simple as removing Precise Shots and adjusting numbers elsewhere would make a HUGE difference in MM across the board and would open up a couple talents. Fixing the bugs in Bursting Shot and Explosive Trap as well as increasing the size of Tar Trap and making its trigger mechanism work properly would also make a substantial difference in PvP. A tweak as simple as making Binding Shot baseline would improve our performance in M+ and PvP substantially as well.

These are all within the bounds of “minor” changes or bug fixes.


(Myras) #154

Removing Precise Shots is not a minor change or bug fix.

Also, making a talent baseline is not a minor change or bug fix. They would need to invent an entirely new talent or implement an old one.

I do not disagree that these changes need to happen, but they most likely aren’t going to happen in 8.2.


(Masoschism) #155

What is “major” or “minor” is not easily defined. From a coding perspective I think they are minor. I’m fairly certain I could code and test them sufficiently to push it to the PTR in a day (or part of a day). Hell, I’ve already done all the math on it. You disagree on them being minor and you may be right from their perspective, but neither of us knows for certain.

Replace that tier with the previous Disengage modifying tier we had in MoP/WoD. That tier had a reasonable distribution of people taking each talent, it was competitive and offered real and balanced gameplay choice. It was basically the perfect tier by any measure. It’s removal was a crime.

Changing that talent tier is almost copy/paste with a change from linking the Deterrence ability to the Turtle ability instead (or ffs just bring back Deterrence with two charges and fix a TON of issues).

Meh, you are probably right that the changes that need to happen won’t happen, even though I assert they are simple. Nevertheless, I think we will see meaningful changes. “Minor” doesn’t mean it won’t be impactful.


(Airese) #156

This is pure speculation on my part.

In general, Blizzard gets rid of less popular or unused talents by the wow community. I am sure there are many reasons why a talent is unpopular, one reason being the talent may be so undertuned. And I hope Blizzard realizes this exact reason and not get rid of more interesting talents simply because it’s so undertuned.


(Bertimus) #157

My perspective on this comes from two q&a’s ago when Ion said not to expect major core changes around base rotations and resources. To me, fully removing precise shots kind of goes contrary to that. I think tuning it is minor, removing and replacing it is major.

The goal of precise seems to be to make arcane a good source of damage, but only when you’re also casting aimed shot. In order to get a big arcane, you also need to cast an aimed shot. Imo the major problems with it are the rotational factors that limit your talent options. I think doing something like tuning the numbers and allowing you to store more charges of it open things up more while also keeping the core design in place.

Don’t get me wrong, not my favorite ability design either, but in terms of major vs. minor, I think it’s a major one. It may or may not be easy to code out, but the impact to the rest of the spec would be major and the way you use the rest of your core abilities would drastically change. Could or should it be done? Probably. Is it likely to happen? I don’t think so.


(Masoschism) #158

It can be as simple as removing it and increasing damage of all other core abilities by 15-20%. It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that. Of course that is not my favorite option. I’d much rather they put that damage into a stand alone ability (like Old Chimera or Marked Shot (sans vulnerable)) which accomplishes the same thing but gives us back some agency and puts a lot of our damage back into mobile.

Either one of those options is half an hour of coding for one person, and a few hours of testing. They are minor, because nothing else needs to be changed. It’s just some math (which I’ve already done and written about elsewhere) and some cutting or copy/pasting.

Precise Shots makes Arcane Shot feel like crap. That’s basically the opposite of what you stated. It’s not like we didn’t have post after post of how Precise Shots made Arcane Shot feel bad in the beta (and since). They know it doesn’t do what you said, so that can hardly have been “the goal”. What I think the goal was, was to make Aimed Shot hit harder, without making Aimed Shot hit harder, and to decrease our effective mobility. At the very least that was the effect, at the expense of several of our talents and all possibility of competitiveness.

I agree with this, as long as the charges last longer as well. If we could store them up for some mobile burst at a later time that would make for some skillful gameplay and would spread our burst out into areas other than just the opener. So it would be much better than what we have, but far from ideal and no “easier” than my proposal while solving fewer problems.

As for major vs. minor, I’ve been coding for many, many years. I make a few assumptions on how organized their code and legacy code are, and then can easily make a determination on how long it would take me to code it. I may be a little faster than most, but I am sure they have some very talented coders there that can do it in even less time than me. In the case of my proposals, when the code has already been written (which it has), even if it needs to be ported to some new system it takes very little time to make these changes. Of course it takes longer to test, but not that long, especially if they have a good simulator, which I am sure they do.

Bottom line is, lets not worry about what is “major” or “minor,” lets try to focus on what we need and why. I think that is the most important feedback. Suggestions are secondary, but I think its important to not shut any suggestions down for the wrong reasons, where I think assuming you know what someone else thinks is major or minor is a bad reason.


Serpent Sting and Explosive Shot
Serpent Sting and Explosive Shot
(Airese) #159

If Blizzard insists on no major changes, i rather they swap lock n load and precise shot. LnL as baseline and precise shot as lvl 100 talent.

Buff LnL proc rate to at least about 20% and adjust the tuning accordingly.

I like faster pace gameplay. I will like it more if Blizzard reduces aimed shot and rapid fire cast time by 0.5 secs.


(Bertimus) #160

Off topic:

I have also been coding for many years and I run qa for my client now. Complexity of a code change doesn’t necessarily equate to low impact.

I don’t mean to shut you down. I just consider precise shots a “core” element of the specs base damage kit. The statement ion made makes me feel like we are better off thinking of ways to make it work rather than replacing it with something.


(Masoschism) #161

I like the idea. Mechanically Precise Shots (which is really just a buff to Aimed Shot) work better as a talent. Then people could choose how much of their damage is mobile or immobile. Also, mechanically having LnL procs on a much more regular basis would really make the spec feel more dynamic and reactionary as well as a whole lot more effectively mobile (the actual time of immobility for max DPS wouldn’t change at all).

Unfortunately neither of these works numerically. If we had LnL as a 20% proc chance AND someone took Precise Shots as a talent our DPS would be through the roof. Also, Precise Shots does so much of our damage (>20%), if it was a talent it would add about four times more damage than competing talents which are usually tuned to add (at least by themselves) about 5%. What would happen is our DPS would have to be massively decreased across the board to compensate. This would have the net effect of decreasing our burst and giving us just sustained damage.

I’m not saying something like that couldn’t work, but it doesn’t work as suggested, not even close. I do agree it would play a lot better though, numbers aside.

This is why I like the idea of removing Precise Shots entirely and making Aimed Shot stand on its own. Changing Careful Aim to a previous iteration (large increase to crit chance above 80 or 90%) and making it baseline (like it was for forever) would also improve the feel of Aimed Shot by itself.

Then taking all the current damage from Precise Shots and putting it into a separate ability that procs often and bypasses armor (which we can call LnL) would fulfill all the benefits of your idea without causing numerical issues, since we are simply trading Precise Shots damage for this new shots damage. This would be something like Marked Shot from Legion except that it is magic damage (or physical damage that bypasses armor) without the horrible Vulnerable mechanic. Personally I like calling this ability Piercing Shot. A physical shot that bypasses armor, but that’s just a thematic preference on my part. Its name and damage type is much less consequential than how it plays.

I agree wholeheartedly. If you also decrease Steady Shot by 0.25s the spec would feel so good.

Lastly, because I have to plug Kill Shot’s return every time I post; if we change Careful Aim back to its previous iteration as part of an attempt to make Aimed Shot stand on its own two feet, we can put Kill Shot back into the spec as a talent replacement.


(Masoschism) #162

When I look at coding time (and testing time) as a metric for whether or not something is a “simple” change, it is because that is how I think (because of all the time I have spent in my life putting in changes at other peoples request). I have to assume that is how they think as well because they are also coders. When Ion said “no major changes” I assume he meant, “we aren’t dedicating a lot of man hours to this aspect of the game right now.” I think any suggestions should be considered by how complex it is to code, and how much of an impact it has on our gameplay numerically, not how many sentences it takes to write.

Your suggestion is “add more stacks of Precise Shots.” My suggestion is, “remove Precise Shots and put that damage (which is trivial to calculate) into its own shot as either a proc or ~10s CD shot that bypasses armor.” Both are simple fixes. Yours is just a numbers change, mine is copy/pasting from either old Chimera Shot or old Marked Shot (sans vulnerable) with some name changes (and maybe damage type).

My point is they are both trivial. Which one is better? That is subject to debate, but yours is not more “simple” than mine. Yours would require more testing than mine, because it’s impact on gameplay is not obvious (our burst would increase a fair bit). Mine on the other hand has been tested for a decade. I’m not saying yours would be difficult to test and tune, it wouldn’t, all I am saying is, they are both equally “simple” by all definitions that matter in this context.


(Kajeron) #163

I honestly don’t see the point of moving precise shots to a talent. It is fine as is. If you move it to a talent it would be three default choice. I would rather they buff or change existing talents.


(Masoschism) #164

It’s far from “fine as is.” Precise Shots costs a lot of focus and many globals and is higher DPCT and DPF than any of our talents. Because of this, talents that also cost focus and globals are DPS losses, or smaller DPS gains because if you try to cast them on CD (or keep them up in the case of Serpent Sting), you can “clip” Precise Shots. The talents most effected by this are Piercing Shot (a DPS loss over no talent at all) and Serpent Sting (substantially reduced in effectiveness), but all focus costing talents are affected to one degree or another, especially if you want to take more than one.

In addition to the math problem and the devaluing of 5 of our talents it also makes regular Arcane Shot feel super weak. Who wants to EVER cast Arcane Shot when its not a Precise Shot proc? That is a perception issue, but that can’t be discounted. This game is (supposed to be) all about having fun after all.

The worst problem is though, Precise Shots is really just Aimed Shot extended into more focus and globals. Currently Aimed Shot + Precise Shots makes up more than 55% of our damage. That is stand still and cast for 2.5 seconds damage. We are far from an effective mobile spec in PvP because the majority of our damage is tied up in a long cast time ability, without the tools to get that ability off.

If Precise Shots wasn’t a thing, and all that damage was instead in its own instant shot, say a shot on a 10s CD costing 10 focus (like old Chimera Shot e.g.) the following would happen:

  • ~25% of our damage would be moved from immobile to mobile, leaving only 30% immobile, making us much more effective kiters in PvP.
  • This would free up ~3 globals and ~65 focus per minute allowing all of our talents that use such things to function at their intended level.
  • Regular Arcane Shot would not feel as weak, even if the numbers didn’t change. I mean, it wouldn’t feel strong, but you would (eventually) stop comparing it to Precise Shots and it would stop feeling bad, just normal.

(Rockford) #165

Do you even play MM? Or even effectively?
2.5sec is before Haste, or do you just play without gear.
If you are actually playing MM to full effect, you’d know to clip Arcane into the end of the cast of Aimed. MM gameplay switches between mobility as Aimed is intended to have the player decide when it’s best to cast.

If you want full mobility, you’re obviously playing the wrong spec!!!

Precise shots is a synergy that allows another layer of resources and gameplay to the MM kit, and you want to sacrifice that for a 10sec cooldown? Degenerating Arcane into a simple resource spender without further thought into when it’s best to cast. Dumbing that damage down into a simple 10sec CD that is just something the player presses on cooldown with no thought at all, and no synergy whatsoever.

Arcane with lost synergy would be horrible! In a PvE setiing, of which your recent experience is extremely underwhelming, MM has a flow with it’s abilities, of when best to use these for maximum impact. You need to consider a scenario where trouble dealing damage because of kiting is down to either not having the correct tools, or playing the situation or the spec incorrectly!!!

And I’m not denying that. But as someone who doesn’t play their hunter in a PvE setting, wants to screw over synergies for the base gameplay.

If you’re wanting solutions for your ability to kite in PvP, you should consider tools that can be limited to that field in the form of PvP talents instead of rallying to degenerate baseline gameplay that will also affect PvE, of which you’re not actively playing in.