8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion


(Kabbie) #126

My complaint is less a numbers issue and more of a problem with immersion.

Maybe it’s just me, but the abilities don’t feel impactful: i don’t get the same sort of aural and visual feedback loop that I get from other classes, if you know what I mean. Like if I use a Stormstrike on my shaman, I can feel and hear the jolt of lightning; Colossus Smash or Mortal Strike have a satisfying crunching sound when they connect, but with the marksman, it’s just ‘thwip-thwip-thwip’ all the time. I miss the explosions and dull thud that came from my old explosive shots back when I was SV, and to me, MM doesn’t embrace the Rule of Cool that used to drive the class: Steady Shots sound like Aimed Shots sound like Arcane Shots sound like Auto Shots, and it’s all just the same and too subdued. There’s a small satisfying ‘CHOOM’ that gives a good feel when Concussive Shot hits, but that’s like one move out of many.

It doesn’t feel satisfying to play - I know my hunter isn’t some sort of lightning bolt-throwing orc or a heavy weapon juggernaut, but even being an archer with a bow feels somewhat…weak. Numbers and mechanics aside, this spec doesn’t give me the sort of feedback that suggests that this is fun.


(Kajeron) #127

Tbh compared to the start of the xpac we are in an ok spot rotation and numbers wise. We really really need utility and pvp help.


(Bertimus) #128

Yep. Other than the lack of 2 target cleave with trick shots, the standard build works very well and the numbers are about right. There’s contention with lack of choice in the talent tree, since only one build really makes sense. Wholeheartedly agree with the need for non-damage utility specifically for pvp.


(Masoschism) #129

“compared to the start of the xpac” I agree with. That’s a really low bar though. We still have no option in talents. Precise Shots still breaks everything. In our damage dealing abilities we still have nothing interesting to work with, nothing that is reactionary or situational, and very little that requires any skill at all.

Having said that it doesn’t feel awful like it did, but again, that’s a low bar.

For sure.


#130

Ideally for Trick Shots it would trigger on 2 targets and be uncapped in the amount of enemies hit, if the damage would be too high just make it deal 50% on 5 additional targets then 25% on the rest.

Currently Precise Shots has one purpose which is AoE damage from Multishot which does help in M+ when there are big pulls or reaping but Multishot is only useful when enemies are grouped up.

It’d help if they gave us Volley as an AoE spell that deals damage in an area and makes our Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire hit all targets inside the AoE 100% to the main target and 30-40% for the others, buff Aimed Shot damage and get rid of Precise Shots.

We don’t need any other reason to cast Arcane/Multishot because Calling the Shots exists since we want to have as low of a CD on our Trueshot as possible.

Lone Wolf needs a buff but mostly for survivability, given our lackluster amount of defensives and utility. Lone Wolf could give us 5% less damage taken and 5% leech or something like that. Unfortunately this wouldn’t really help us in PvP but it would help a hell of a lot in PvE. It’d be better if they just gave us 2 charges of Turtle or gave us a talent or PvP talent that let us attack while we’re in Turtle. Disengage breaking Roots should be baseline and the talent should give 2 charges of Disengage instead.


(Bertimus) #131

My honest thought on 2 charge Tuttle is that it might be too good for specific things like soak mechanics in pve. It’s needed in pvp, but my suggestion to solve this is a version of readiness on 5m cooldown that resets turtle, cheetah, and exhilaration. If they made scatter baseline (which they should, and disorient dr), rangers finesse could be swapped for readiness and you would be able to use it.


(Masoschism) #132

Was it too good in MoP/WoD when we had it? Give me an instance in current gameplay where it would be too good. It’s silly to spout fears without at least some justification. I’m not saying the justification doesn’t exist, I am only protesting the fact that you have made the statement as a fear without giving any evidential support, even in theory. That is not sound decision making.

Ya, sure. Readiness would solve a lot of problems. You will get no argument from me there. That would also mean Readiness would be mandatory. I am sure you know by now how I feel about mandatory talents. For those that don’t, I feel very strongly that designing “optional” talents as fixes for classes (aka mandatory) is very bad class design. I also feel suggesting such things especially based on an unfounded fear is tantamount to an unforgivable sin.


(Kajeron) #133

Off the top off my head it would help out massively on conclave. Being able to dodge multiple bleeds and other situations would be nice. It would be a little silly on jadefire for multiple soaks of the fire traps. It would also be good on gronk for multiple deathknell avoidance.

But you know after listing those out it would provide us some unique utility. So why not im all in for 2 charge turtleshell.

As for your other point i am not sure how our talents are much different in terms of reactionary gameplay. Can you provide an example from another class so i understand.

As for diverse i think streamline is close to competing with hunters mark. Serpent sting could maybe use some love. But there will always be a mathematical best for throughput talents.


(Masoschism) #134

I didn’t mean to suggest I didn’t think it would ever be useful in PvE, I meant “too good” literally, as in, so good you would want to stack MM (lol). If there weren’t situations where it would be useful, it would be by definition useless.

I remember several times raiding with my mage where Iceblock was a raid saver. I got kills on bosses coming down to the wire because of Iceblock in a “last man standing” scenario (or close enough). Did people stack mages because sometimes it was awesome? Hardly.

Reactionary

I used to use Kill Shot for off target sniping in BG/RBGs/Arena. I was hyper aware of everyone’s health, everyone’s distance, everyone’s target, just so I could land a kill by targeting the right person at the right time and pressing my pretty little red button. Unfortunately MM no longer has Kill Shot so that fun can no longer be had. As a Fire Mage I pretty much always have at least one Fireblast in reserve for the same purpose. Because it is off the GCD and does 8-10% of someone’s health it makes for an excellent execute. I TRY to keep two in reserve so I can Fireblast, Fireblast, Pyro for the same purpose. It’s not quite as good a Kill Shot because Kill Shot could ONLY be used as an execute, so was always available, whereas with Fireblast I want to use it for other reasons, but it’s as close as I can get atm.

A more mundane example is Tranq Shot. You don’t cast Tranq Shot on CD, you cast it when a Priest Bubbles, etc. That’s reactionary. We do have Counter Shot (thank god), so that IS reactionary, but it’s by far the weakest interrupt in the game, so while we have it, and its reactionary, it also kinda sucks because it’s not terribly effective. Nevertheless it can be a game winner, so I’m glad we have it. I just wish some of hunter’s toolkit didn’t feel like hand me downs.

As an aside; Counter Shot used to be Silencing Shot. When that was the case its CD and duration were more justified. When it got nerfed those things should have been looked at, but now I’m just complaining.

Situational

So the above are reactionary but they are also situational, so they fall into this category as well. For something that’s more purely situational, take Scare Beast. It used to be awesome to use against other hunters, or Feral, or catch a Resto in Bear or Cat, etc. It wasn’t useful often, but when it was, those who thought to use it were much better at their class than those that didn’t. Hell, they justified removing it because they said people never used it. Well… I used it all the time to great effect. Now that is gone as well.

Streamline is more burst, but Hunter’s Mark is more sustained AND it has an extremely important secondary effect: it is very useful against rogues, ferals and hunters. So for PvP there really isn’t a choice. It’s Hunter’s Mark or go home. Nevertheless, I agree that those two talents are at least somewhat of a choice. It’s pretty much the only choice in our entire tree however. How sad.

Sure, but the DPS differences don’t have to be huge and can be made up for in other ways or for other situations. Like Hunter’s Mark, even if Streamline was MORE DPS (if only by a little), Hunter’s Mark would still be the goto for PvP for the reason I mentioned. In MoP/WoD we had a choice between Glaive Toss or Powershot (or something else I don’t remember). Glaive Toss was higher DPS, but Powershot had more burst AND an awesome knockback. I always took Powershot, even though it was a little less DPS, so there was choice even though one had a little higher throughput.

At the moment there is very little choice because there is very little use in any of the talents. They have been largely stripped of useful secondary effects or even just differences in fun. When there is nothing else to compare them then yes, it becomes purely a numbers game. That is why this problem exists currently. The game has been too dumbed down.


#135

For Conclave, you’d need to be targeted to dodge the bleed. The other way that it could be used is just to bait the frog while winds are going off but you shouldn’t really need to do that.

On Jadefire, sure it’d make it a lot easier but other classes have ways to soak the traps, Pally bubble, DH Nether Walk, I believe Rogues can also Cloak it.

For Grong, it doesn’t really matter if you survive it if everyone else dies to the AoE, and it doesn’t necessarily save your healers a lot of mana unless you bring a raid full of Hunters (would be fun to see at the very least).

I’d also like to point out that we can’t do any DPS while we use Turtle anyway so unless Turtle is changed so that we can attack while Turtle is in use it’s a purely defensive cooldown.

Speaking from a PvE situation they are pretty competitive the one thing that keeps me from taking Streamline is that it throws off my Trueshot rotation due to the increased channel time and in M+ although Streamline is better damage I prefer to just spend one or two globals using Hunter’s Mark on targets that are about to die to regen focus for the next pull. If it was just 20% more shots with no increased channel time I would take Streamline 100% of the time.

Honestly Serpent Sting would be a decent M+ talent if it spread via Trick Shots though the balancing on it would be interesting it’s not a very strong DoT but if it were to deal 100% damage when it spreads it could work. But my thoughts on it would have it be a passive that deals ~25% damage of your Aimed Shot Damage as a DoT basically Warrior’s Deep Wounds lite.

Big Wall of Text Incoming

The biggest issue is just dead talents.
Master Marksman is a very basic yet effective talent that saves us focus compared to the other 2 on the row which cost focus and have no synergy with the rest of our toolkit this kills Serpent Sting and Murder of Crows.

Explosive shot for me isn’t worth the focus and the cooldown is too long, though it does have a place in M+ most Hunters go BM for M+. Volley has the benefit of being active the entire fight but Careful aim is active for 40% of the fight and bolsters our Trueshot windows during those portions of the fight.

Natural Mending gives us survivability by knocking the cooldown of Exhilaration down and pairing it with the azerite trait Nature’s Salve it knocks Exhilaration down to what? a minute? Comparing that to Camouflage which can’t be used during a fight in raid (still useful in PvP), and Trailblazer which is only useful for open world when you can’t mount or farming old content.

Steady Focus used to be good when Steady Aim was the go-to Azerite trait before Lethal Shots was changed but no one is going to take it now so it’s just kind of there.

Born To Be Wild is a boring talent, not bad, not great, the problem is that it competes with Posthaste and Binding Shot. Posthaste has functionality that should be baseline, the root removal. The talent should instead reduce the cooldown or give Disengage an extra charge and increase movement speed while the root removal is added to Disengage. Binding Shot being changed from a stun to a root was also a bad move because now we can only use Binding Shot defensively against melee, whereas before we could use Binding Shot and Bursting Shot offensively to stun.

Lethal Shots would be good if it weren’t a chance to reduce the cooldown it’s especially bad if you have the Surging Shots trait because of the overlap. It should just reduce the cooldown of Rapid Fire by 1 second for every Arcane/Multishot. Barrage I’m biased against, I don’t mind that I have to be wary of my positioning but it costs 30 focus and is only useful on massive AoE pulls. The only complaint I have about Double Tap is just the fact that it’s on the GCD, but then again so is everything nowadays.

On the last row Piercing Shot has the same problem as Barrage in that it requires good positioning but it also comes with the extra condition of all enemies having to be in a line. Calling the Shots is very powerful since it reduces the cooldown of our main DPS cooldown, in 8.2 it’ll be even more powerful. Some PTR testing I did by using Memory of Lucid Dreams as the Major Power and Vision of Perfection as the Minor Power I was able to get Trueshot down to about a one minute cooldown combining the passive reduced cooldown from Vision of Perfection, the passive refunded Focus and the activated Memory of Lucid Dreams.

MM Hunters, like a lot of other specs in the game, needs a talent overhaul, that means making some talents that are always taken given to us baseline, the ones that pop into my head first are Calling the Shots, Master Marksman, and Careful Aim just because they’re so powerful. Talents that used to be baseline spells should be given back, Hunter’s Mark, Camo, hell even Serpent Sting if they can make it worth casting.


(Kajeron) #136

First of i have limited time today so if its not that I’m ignoring half your post just can’t get to it yet.

As say this we kind of have an execute, aimed shot + talent, and kind of have an instant cast in lock n load. I am sure your aware of the meme double double tap with rapid fire and lock n load. I wonder if they made a way to bank or control lock n load if it would serve the same purpose.

I agree that the cd on counter shot is to long. I also agree they should bring back tranq shot. That would give me a feeling that i can contribute something more rare. I know its available in pet form but tbh anyone that claims using a pet is not channeling what mm wants.

Also Thyssalia i will get to your post when i have time


(Bertimus) #137

There have been entire raid tiers (like tomb) where soak mechanics are so prevalent that mythic progression guilds stack immunity classes to make soak mechanics easier. Imo that’s just not what I think the “niche” should be, and survivability in pve isn’t as much of a problem for mm as it is in pvp, which is why I find the readiness option more logical. You would also have to consider for pve the balance between marks and bm/sv which probably do not need 2 charges of turtle (in pvp) but would end up needing to switch marksman on fights with heavy soak mechanics just because of that one ability.

I’m not saying it would be so outside the spectrum of reasonability to the point that it would make the spec op, I just favor the marks-specific pvp talent approach because I don’t think the other two specs need it in PvP and imo it isn’t necessary for marks in pve.


(Masoschism) #138

There is absolutely zero, and I mean ZERO similarity between Kill Shot and Aimed Shot + Careful Aim. They are nothing alike. None of what I spoke about in my post can be accomplished in Aimed Shot + Careful Aim. The ability to actually land a kill as MM is currently pretty damn poor, and we used to be among the best for a decade.

First, LnL is far inferior when compared to Calling the Shots for both burst potential and sustained damage. Second, LnL is a once per minute proc, not something that is available when you need it. It was its availability that made Kill Shot so amazing. It was available and ONLY available when you needed it most. Third, you can’t “save up” a LnL. If you hold on to LnL as some sort of execute you can’t do any damage, which makes you useless since as MM that is really all you are there for.

So I protest all of your comparisons or “but what abouts.” Give us back Kill Shot for the love of god.


(Masoschism) #139

Give me an example of a fight in current content (since 8.0) where turtle twice in the first 3 minutes (and once every 3 minutes thereafter) is so far superior to just once per 3 minutes that it would be worth stacking MM (assuming MM damage was sufficient). Content prior to Legion is irrelevant, because we had two charges of Turtle (equivalent) then (on a one minute CD for 4 of those years no less). Of course MM was not stacked then so…

Again, you are not providing actual evidence, nor even theoretical evidence, you are only making broad statements that I believe are unfounded. It is especially important that you make a more sound case since we have so many years of contrary evidence.

Again, complete supposition. This is just not how things are done except extremely rarely. Regardless, I don’t think BM or SV having another charge of turtle would be a bad thing. It’s not like they are dominating anything, they are both currently among the lowest represented DPS in the game in all aspects of PvP. Just because they are FAR superior to MM doesn’t mean anything. That is only true because there are no MM AT ALL.


(Bertimus) #140

Top of my head, the mythic jadefire fight becomes trivial because you can soak or ignore so many of the mechanics with that many immunities. Again we’re speaking about relative power on a spectrum. I just don’t think it’s necessary for PvE. It wouldn’t be OP either.


(Masoschism) #141

As I said before, when we had two charges and the ability itself had a one minute CD these things were never an issue. Now we are talking about one single extra Turtle use over a fight of any duration, so over a 6 to <9 min fight that’s 3 uses vs 2. I think you are massively overselling it.

I appreciate you giving me an example however. I haven’t done mythic raiding this tier so I can’t debate whether or not that particular fight would in any way “become trivial” because of that one extra use, but I will take you at your word. There are many other specs that can do their big defensive CD much more often than that during the same time period, so on your “spectrum” it’s still behind quite a few even with an extra charge.

I understand why you are overselling it (based on my assumption that you are). You really want Readiness. You are trying to provide logical reasons for it to exist. But I think your reasons for not making two charges of Turtle baseline are without a logical foundation (or at least a very weak one, not necessarily illogical).

In no way does that mean I think Readiness would not help the spec. I would not complain if it became a part of MM. It is a skillful button and I am all about that. But whether or not it should be a part of the spec should not be reliant upon arguments that are tenuous against two charges of Turtle. Make better arguments, or just keep supporting it in a positive way. I will keep supporting the idea of a return to two charges of Deterrence at its previous two min CD with talents to reduce it to one min (and Disengage to 10s), just like we used to have when we didn’t suck defensively.

I personally feel that my way would be much stronger defensively (because Readiness was on a 5 min CD), though admittedly less skillful (Readiness provides a lot more options for skillful play).


(Bertimus) #142

Your way would be much stronger both in PvE and PvP. My main perspective here comes from both of the content types I’ve done quite a bit of this/last season. It doesn’t feel like there is a need for 2x turtles in m+ or raids. It does feel like it’s necessary in arenas. My going concern would be high keys and future raid content where soak mechanics become more and more of a big deal. I’m all in for a unique niche that the spec fills to become really good at both of those, I’m just not sure that the ability to immune more mechanics than everyone else is the way to go for that. I feel like the main areas for improvement in that theatre are changes to trick shots and talent tuning.

However the entire mobility/control/defensive matrix is completely off in arena for how the spec has to function, so I feel like making scatter disorient + baseline (so that you have the talent slot freed up) and then swapping out Ranger’s Finesse for Readiness gives the help where it is most needed without impacting pve, where this kind of defensive utility might have some unintended consequences and ultimately doesn’t feel necessary.


(Kajeron) #143

My main point was not that any of the current mechanics are sufficient, but more that maybe some of the pieces there could be reworked into an interesting execute mechanic.


(Kajeron) #144

I think this would be a really ingesting option. I don’t know why they got rid of binding shot along with all our other utility. I think steady focus could be more compelling if it went back to a maintence buff. I agree that things could be better, but its a lot better then when we were a 2 button spec with bottom 5dps that needed a specific hard to get azerite setup. As alliance we couldn’t even farm the warfront for the helmit the first few weeks.


(Masoschism) #145

I appreciate your intent, but an execute is only useful if it is always available in an execute window. If you have to wait 12s for it to come off CD, and then another 2.5s to cast it, AND it is your core damaging ability (so you really can’t “save” it), it’s just never going to be useful as an execute.

Even if your premise was true, it’s a whole lot easier to just give us back the tool we had for that purpose for 8 years that was loved by every hunter and was fundamental to the spec. Everyone else who lost their execute to “uniqueness” got it back except Hunter. Granted, it was regifted as a talent for them which is lame af, but I would take that happily at this point. Take Careful Aim, make Aimed Shot stand on it’s own two feet, and GIVE US BACK KILL SHOT!!!

:grinning: