8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion

(Masoschism) #85

A 6s slow on a 5s CD (current Concussive Shot) means permanent uptime on slow. A 3s root + 3s slow on a 30s CD means 24 seconds of nothing. Considering everyone and their mother has a root break on less than 30s CD this would leave us with nothing all of the time for movement management.

Disengage using one of the talents had a root built in. It never had a snare. I agree it would be nice to have more viable options in Disengage. The Disengage talent tier in MoP/WoD was exactly what a competitive talent tier should look like.

(Yura) #86

truth. i shoot a bow not a machine gun.

(Masoschism) #87

But I like looking like an epileptic 3 seconds out of every 20.

Oh wait, no I don’t.

(Rockford) #88

A few spit ball ideas that could be worth looking into, that aren’t exclusive with each other:

Trickshots are always procced by using Multishot with no target amount required, though the limit hit by Aimed/Rapid may, or may not be still limited.

Could also look at Legion’s Marked Targets in having Multi always debuff targets hit, allowing Rapid to emulate Legion’s Marked Shot in hitting everything with the debuff. Though does leave a gap for where Rapid in on CD, and I do not think Aimed should work in the same manner.

Comparing Legion’s Volley to BFA’s can be quite depressing, with a 25% chance from auto-shots. Thought’s? Could it be reverted? Can it be competitive in that tier?

(Kabbie) #89

The sad part is, despite being rocked in PVP, MM probably won’t see any changes because it’s “fine” in PVE.

Which, all things considered, is a nice hard kick in the teeth.

(Rockford) #90

Yeah, I honestly do not expect any mechanical changes until 9.0 Alpha.

Shame really, while there have been some fantastic 8.1 changes to the spec that are very much appreciated, there are still some smaller issues.

(Masoschism) #91

Other than the change to Trueshot, the changes were more bug fixes than anything else, forcing us to actually use Rapid Fire as intended.

All the big issues are still there. There is nothing “smaller” about them.

  • There is only one set of viable talents.
  • The math of the spec is still broken in Precise Shots.
  • It has insufficient tools to be a kiting spec, and no tools to take or mitigate damage == no chance to be viable in PvP.
  • It has no reliable way to do its main form of CC in PvP.
  • It has lost a tremendous amount of reactionary or situational abilities which lowers the skill “ceiling” to someone else’s floor.
  • It is bursty, but has no capacity to set up a kill window, and no abilities to actually finish someone off.
  • It is completely dependent on a pet for PvP. It can’t function without it, yet a fix for that is as simple as any fix can be.
  • It has the most awkward and counter-intuitive AoE ever created in any game.

MM needs some serious love.

(Rockford) #92

True, I definitely used the wrong wording there.

Some of those bug fixes, and intentional change we’re huge in how MM played.

Lets not forget:

Explosive shot now working as we specifically asked for in moving away from the horrible skill-shot mechanic.

Removing that cancerous 50% bonus to Aimed on any target not previously hit by the player.

The balance of damage from Precise Shots to the corresponding abilities was very much intentional in an effort to make them more impactful than pre 8.1, while some of the other tuning and adjustments were absolutely needed for QoL (Lone Wolf ramp, Multi spread, Lethal Shots not giving us a stupid rotation).

That Trueshot change was huge, in it’s now a CD that matters.

Trickshots is still a horrible mechanic.
Yes, it can absolutely be improved further (past their efforts of improving in 8.1). Do you think they’ll replace the mechanic in BFA?

Yeah, MM still has issues. A lot of specs still do, and it’s not ok to discount our own problems because of that overall lack of design. 8.1 was good for us (at least in PvE).

With the exception of further tuning (and hope that talents can be more competitive), do you think the above will be addressed before 9.0 Alpha?

(Bertimus) #93

Numbers wise, it’s not great but not terrible in the current raid. I think a lot of things about the damage are livable. Trick shots to 2 seems pretty obvious but other than that, I’m really mostly okay with it. Not my favorite by any means, but whatever. It’s a lot different for rated PvP, though. It’s still missing core parts of it’s toolkit there, which I think we’ve covered pretty well in this thread.

(Llars) #94

This is right! i am not a bullet hose, i am an Archer!
A Marksman, i select my target and stand firm, carefully making my shot. All the time i devote to my carefully made aimed shots, i shouldn’t need to make more than a few… to put down an evenly matched enemy.

(Eddyv) #95

Aside from a completely made up class fantasy. There is nothing wrong with rapid fire, it’s mechanically a great ability that adds flavor to the spec (many of our most favored historical iterations were very one dimensional just doing instant shots in CD).

Also for an archer to hit a succession of 10 shots in a short window is pretty expert or maybe even a… Marksman. Go figure.

(Bertimus) #96

Here’s to hoping there is any kind of last minute adjustments put into 815 Tuesday. I’m of the belief that at least scatter dr should be something hotfixable enough to do like that.

Maybe 8.2 or even the 8.1.5.x update patch in April will have more substantive changes like some discussed in this thread, like talent shuffling in order to make some of the existing tools usable together and some pvp talent updates. It has to be obvious to someone that the non-damage kit is sorely lacking. I guess it’s just a matter of when that gets priority. It seems like kt humans put them behind which might be why 815 seems light on class dev.


They could bring back the passive for concussive barrage. Aimed shot and steady shot apply a slow at least steady shot.

Give it back to multi shot for pve.

Put the bleed back on aimed shot crits. Quick maybe 10 second dot with decent dmg. Or make it a longer bleed to pump our sustained

(Eddyv) #98

Them adding the slow extension to steady shot made absolutely no sense. It should have been tied to arcane shot. We don’t currently use steady shot enough to justify it.

Though I miss conc barrage, I miss having my big AOE ice trap. Tar trap radius is just too small. Let’s be honest we are one of the most pruned specs of our utility, which is really sad when we were a class of outplaying instead of our damaging.

(Bertimus) #99

Agreed. It was a lot of wasted dev time that didn’t really provide any kind of solution to anything. I wish they would have put that time into something relevant to our feedback.

(Kabbie) #100

Arcane Shots cost focus, and Steady Shots don’t. I don’t PVP, but I think being able to maintain Conc Shot on a target without fear of running out of focus isn’t a bad thing. Yes, the damage is sacrificed to a ridiculous degree and it turns you into a conc bot, but…y’know, now that I think about it, that’s not so great after all. Maybe a PVP talent that allows Steady Shots to trigger a free and instant Aimed Shot?

I don’t have a lot of complaints about MM because I mostly PVE, but I do wish Kill Shot was back - or that the cast time on Aimed Shot was about 0.5s faster. I still think Hunter’s Mark should go back to being baseline, and that the talent should enhance Hunter’s Mark in some way.

I’ve been underperforming for the last few weeks, but I just got a weapon upgrade, so we’ll see how that goes.

(Kajeron) #101

I like the idea for a PvP talent to make steady shot give you a mobile aimed shot.

On the pve side I have no complaints. I am actually really enjoying the spec. I also have not gotten a weapon yet and we are just moving into heroic.

(Yura) #102

MM really needs a instant short cd shot like the old days. I would bring back windburst for this as like a 10-12 sec instant shot. Even better make windburst make your next aimed shot instant. Spec would be 10x more fun.

(Bertimus) #103

You’re right, but we ARE at the point where there’s probably not going to be new, rotation changing spells added to the game. However, we do have some talents that could partially fill this gap if they worked better and were tuned better.

Explosive and piercing both have the same problem in that they compete with very powerful passives. The passives that they compete with are generally the best option for st and mt. The way the talented shots work now, they cleave an infinite number of targets, so it’s hard to tune the damage to make them viable for st situations without making them super op for mt situations. The end result is that they’re never useful because what the passive provides is a lot more consistent across the board.

My proposition for both explosive and piercing is to significantly buff the damage and/or lower the cooldown, but add a target cap and make the damage split between the targets. If there is one target, it gets all of the damage. If multiple, the damage gets split evenly between. This would allow the damage of these talented shots to be meaningful enough to where they actually stand to compete with the passives.

(Frista) #104

Piercing shot needs to have a 13 second CD