8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion


(Rannoch) #63

Bertimus, one of the mental mistakes you’re making is thinking that there have to be trade-offs and sacrifices to get what you want. I don’t want trade offs, I want improvements.

Masochism is correct: if you want improvements, there shouldn’t have to be any trade offs. Camo should have been baseline from the start; if Blizzard can’t think of a talent to take its place, then implement “Improved Camo,” which starts the CD upon casting Camo rather than leaving it. Hunter’s Mark should have been baseline from the start - if Blizzard couldn’t think of a talent to take its place, then hey, make one that causes Arcane and Concussive Shot to apply Hunter’s Mark called “You’ll Only Die Tired” so I don’t have to waste a GCD when I’m swapping targets. Binding Shot should have been baseline, and if there has to be a talent, it should improve it.


(Bepples) #64

It’s especially egregious when Camouflage used to be baseline.

In WoD they had the same number of talents that we have now and they weren’t taking signature abilities off the baseline to put on talent rows… yet (except for Stampede…). Zero excuses for so many formerly-baseline mechanics to now be talents.


(Bertimus) #65

Here is a VoD with the only hunter match (start @5:33:00 ish) in a BFA awc tournament. Please just note everything that happens, from the opener to the rest of the match being completely lost due to lack of… everything from the hunter. And this is arguably the best hunter in the world. Please also note the commentary before the match. Everything said and everything that happens lines up 110% with the feedback we’ve been giving for the last year or so for the direction of the spec. Lots of ideas in this thread. A lot is needed.


(Masoschism) #66

Everything that happens is everything that happens to all of us. Turtle is crap when compared with double deterrence, and after that we have no CDs. He had no Kill Shot to actually get a kill making all that burst useless. Bursting shot was hilarious. Jellybeans: “I bursting shot you”, them: “who gives a crap? It stopped my burst for less than one second lol ur ded”. The spec has too little to effectively allows us to kite, and very little burst and no sustained damage unless we can stand still. Of course we can’t stand still because we have ZERO tankiness, probably the lowest in the game.

What a joke.

I hope someone who matters was watching that (and cared).


(Bertimus) #67

I hope they watched it and decide to reread our feedback. That was a perfectly set up and executed opener against one of the most vulnerable targets to such an opener, with no teammate having to do anything to prevent a death. After the kind of halfway scary all-in opener that netted one defensive cooldown, the match is effectively over. Nothing is ever scary again and the hunter just dies.


(Waidmann) #68

Right now I don’t see it looking better even then .

Personal opinion is over the last 2 expansions MM hunters have gotten a big :fu:


(Eddyv) #71

Bursting shot is literally a joke of an ability, even after they added the slow to it, it’s still trash. Bursting shot has a small AoE cone, the knock back doesn’t go very far and has limited use.

MM damage and CC needs to be legitimately threatening to justify our lack of defensives. All the best classes right now either have near infinite defensives to rotate through or have such insane passive tankiness that it allows them to faceroll through set ups and pump damage.


(Yura) #72

MM in bfa :-1:


#73

I’ve been waiting to chime in on this thread until I had more experience with 8.1 marksman, as the change to trueshot really changed how the whole marksman talent set worked together. Now that I’ve been using it for a while, mostly in world PVP during assaults, but also in PVE instances and battlegrounds, I feel like I can provide feedback that may be useful in 8.1.5.

First, as much as I really hate to say this, I think we have to give up for now on the idea of being an effective kiting class in PVP. As long as Blizzard thinks warriors’ complaints about not being able to catch up are as legitimate as hunters’ complaints about not being able to kite, kiting is not going to be a viable strategy. For kiting to be reasonable, Blizzard has to realize that being kited is a choice, and answer melee complaints with “you can just stop following”. That will require a complete revamp of multiple classes, not just Hunter, so it’s not going to happen 8.1.5, if ever.

Instead, we should concentrate on something close to the “sniper” class fantasy, which Blizzard seems more amenable to.

While we’re not going to get one shot kills, trueshot does now give us somewhat reasonable “burst” as long as no one interferes with us. For example, in world PVP, if we can find a target who is busy with a mob and oblivious to all else, we can do our double tap trueshot rotation, and get a kill in 10-15 seconds. All it takes is a target that fails to notice it’s being attacked while taking half a dozen aimed shots. Granted targets that oblivious are the exception rather than the rule, but it does happen, and anyone that oblivious can hardly argue that they died because “hunterz overpowered” rather than because of their own inattention.

With competent opposition, trueshot is much less useful, since pretty much any CC will largely negate the chance of its producing a kill. For arenas, an initial burst DPS team might have some success - I understand there’s a marksman double boxer that tries for kills at the beginning of the arena - but once we’re out of camo, all surprise is lost, so we don’t get a second chance. Still, this is closer to a workable strategy for us than anything else at the moment.

I’d suggest a couple of key changes to get us out of the basement and into the “almost competitive category”:

  1. Restore double tap to full 100% effect in PVP. This will accelerate our burst by a fraction of a second, which could help make burst kills in arenas and elsewhere a more realistic possibility. It will also help reduce jarring differences between PVE play and PVP play.

  2. Change the scatter shot effect to a stun. This will provide us with some utility for arenas, and also make ice trap a little less useless since it will be on a different diminishing returns timer.

The other advantage to these changes is that they don’t significantly affect our sustained PVE damage rate, which seems to be already adequate.

Regarding the rest of the thread, I also have a few comments:

  • Making Streamline a buff to the rapid fire damage rate, rather than to the duration, is a great idea. Streamline has been largely useless in 8.1, since that other ability that buffed rapid fire damage for the duration was removed - I don’t even remember whether it was a talent or Azerite trait - making rapid fire produce less than the long term sustained damage rate, rather than more. In fact, with the duration increase, streamline actively interferes with the Azerite trait that happens when streamline completes.

  • The change to sniper shot, which was supposed to be a buff, ended up being a flat out nerf, as the additional cast time gives the target too much warning of an impending attack. I haven’t used it since 8.1 dropped. Switch it to “sniper stance”, taking it off GCD and making it increase the range of all other shots for 6 seconds, instead of making it a shot of its own.

I’ll admit I’ve been guilty of helping to mislead Blizzard’s statistical analysis on these two, as I haven’t bothered to change them due to the lack of compelling alternatives.

I think we need to be careful about the ideas which involve switching talents from one tier to another, as they may mess up existing combinations that work. Well, except the streamline tier - go ahead and create or move one talent that’s actually useful into that tier, but leave the other tiers alone to avoid competing with talents that are already useful.


(Masoschism) #74

While I agree with much of your post, I disagree with some of the thinking.

Specifically, the quote above is a false premise in two ways:

  1. Kiting absolutely exists in this game as an effective strategy for both Mage and Balance Druid (SV is actually better at it than MM).
  2. Warriors, unless they take Double Time, are towards the bottom of the totem pole in the mobility column.

Both Mage and Balance are quite good at kiting. The current meta requires both a root and a reliable way to have more base speed than melee in order to effectively kite. More base speed can come in the form of increased speed yourself (Fire Mage, Balance) or an effective, easy to apply slow (Frost Mage). I think increased speed is actually more effective since there are so many abilities that make snare useless.

MM hunter is obviously designed to be a kiting class as well, but it is missing at the very least a root, and possibly increased speed in order to be as effective at kiting as the classes listed above. Both Mage and Balance are also much better at dealing with incoming damage than MM, so the fact that they have a more effective kiting toolkit as well just shows how bad current MM design is at its intended function. It needs to be fixed by giving us back the tools we used to have to fulfill our function, not changed into something it isn’t designed to be.

This does not follow because as I said, your premise was false. Hunter requires a baseline root, and possibly a return of the real Aspect of the Cheetah and all of the sudden they are on par with Mage and Balance, at least in the kiting toolkit.

Trying to win from an opening burst might get you all the way to 1500 where you will wallow in obscurity, holding your friends back until 9.0. This is not something to shoot for.

What MM does not need is more burst (though it could absolutely use a finisher (Kill Shot)). It simply needs a fix to the kiting toolkit, and some slightly more reliable way to get off a trap, both of those can be accomplished by a root.

That’s it as far as “needs”. Of course there are things that are very close to “needs” that are really “wants”, but that really is all it needs to be viable in PvP. At the moment is is not viable in any way, and that’s a crime against anyone who wants to play an archer, one of the most core fantasies there is in the genre.


(Bepples) #75

Honestly I think a serious issue right now with the state of the game is the proliferation of self healing among DPS classes, especially melee classes. Hunters used to be an extremely valuable PvP class but with the growing self-healing capabilities of just about everyone else along with the gap closers and control abilities the melee classes are always picking up Hunters have stagnated/fallen behind.


(Bertimus) #76

Absolutely. I think about it in terms of “stops”. A knock is a much less consistent “stop” than the other CC’s. It’s really only something to deal with on z-axis maps. Things that prevent death or root/silence/disarm, loss of control cc, etc. are much more consistent “stops”. That’s why a squishy fire mage can last until 50% dampening vs. twd in the tournament (with win opportunities) and the marks hunter dies before dampening having only forced 1 defensive cooldown.


#77

Hunters mark used to be baseline. It increased our dmg by a flat percent on the target and could keep rogues from hiding unless they vanished.

It was then changed to be on whatever target we we’re attacking with arcane shot…I think. After that it became a talent and that hurt a bit


#78

Oddly this made me think of some…sniper ish shot ideas. Remove concussive shot from marks and give it wing clip. Deals x dmg and roots the target for 3 seconds. After the target is slowed for 3 seconds. Its a buff to concussive shot kinda but Mm exclusive. It has to have a long range. Like 30 yards so it’s more than charge/deathgrip/monk roll/etc And it needs like a 30 sec CD. Otherwise it’ll be too strong.

But that would give us scatter, wing clip, ice trap. Tar trap. So that’s a hard root and disorient. With a skill shot/slow. Be harder to get to the sniper. But not impossible


(Eddyv) #79

The original hunters mark was increased RAP by a fixed amount per rank.

Then I believe it was off GCD so people could macro it into their rotation. Then in MoP or WoD it was literally built into the rotation without macroing.

Then it was changed to marking targets in legion which allowed us to use marked shot.

The current iteration feels like a last minute “look we brought back old abilities” but it really doesn’t function well outside of raiding.


(Masoschism) #80

Taking away the snare we have had since the game began would be a truly awful idea. It is part of what defines the class and how it plays.

We need a root, we also need a snare. While snares are not sufficient by themselves to kite due to the proliferation of anti-snare abilities, having some ability to have greater speed than your target is essential. Your idea would be an overall nerf to the class’s kiting toolkit.


#81
  • Windburst on a 10 sec CD, nature damage, cost 20 focus. (delete Rapid Fire, most stupid ability ever)
  • WOD Exotic Ammunition
    -Steady shot cast time reduced, generates 15 focus.
    -Fix a couple talents to synergizes with Steady shot and windburst.
  • Exhilaration on a 1:30 min CD baseline. Add the WOD reset by killing mobs.
  • Camo baseline and make it work like the old camo, no selfhealing, but on a 1 min cd and the cd starts as soon as you enter in stealth. So you can spam it.
  • Scater shot DR with freezin trap (jesus christ, fix this already)
  • Bursting shot, increase range of the aoe effect (5 more yards), and forget about the snare effect, make it disorient for 3 secs or root the targets when they land for 3 secs.

(Frista) #82

Agreed. I hate rapid fire so much. Marked shot was way better IMO cause of the insane proc rate we deserved and needed


#83

Concussive shot is a short slow. Adding a root to it and shorting the slow would compensate for the difference. But you could leave it as a 6 second slow still.

As fast as a snare, disengage used to have one built into it so that we couldn’t be charged as we disengaged. That would be a good thing to bring back


(Bertimus) #84

I could be wrong but it feels like we are at the end of the road for 8.1.5. There doesn’t seem to be much class development at all and we are now 1.5 weeks out. Probably because they are/were behind on kul tirans, which sucks. I would rather have a good human marksman hunter than this version of marks as a kul tiran.