8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion

(Bertimus) #41

I noticed someone mention the fact that we need something closer to consensus of opinion for clarity. I feel like we actually kind of have that here. Everyone has different ideas of how to fix problems, but I think we are pretty solid on what the problems actually are.

We lack trap setup and don’t have enough effective control/non-damage/utility abilities in pvp. Trick shots having a 3 target minimum feels arbitrary and bad. Many talents feel out of place, and precise shots being what it is compounds that problem.

(Masoschism) #42

It’s not bad. Tar Trap really needs a makeover though. Its AoE is so tiny its almost not worth using.

None of that thinking is allowed here (because I said so). There is no “stealing from other classes”. There is no “stepping on others toes”. There is only, “does it work, does it make the class work, would it be fun”. The whole idea of not stepping on toes is a made up concept that has nothing to do with reality. All abilities are derivative.

I have been playing this game since the beginning. No two classes have ever felt “similar” until after they decided to start pruning because “classes had too many similar abilities”.

I will have none of that nonsense.

As for the specifics of monk. I used to play a monk quite a bit. Such a mechanism is NOTHING like what monk does with disable.

(Frista) #43

I am still baffled at the fact hunters mark is a freaking talent instead of baseline. Hell I would even like the way it was implemented in legion. When MM was the quick on your feet sharpshooter blizz said they wanted to implement. But so much for that now :confused:


I too played monk quite a bit and i have to disagree. The mechanic of use an ability snares a target, use a snare ability against a snared target will instead root the target is very much like disable. The only difference in the example given is the use of 2 separate abilities. Using 2 abilities cost 2 globals which is something youve voiced concern for in other threads, precise shots specifically.

In any case, the point of this thread is getting a collective of ideas that MM needs to be viable. To that end, ill withdraw my opinion since thats not allowed so we can get back on topic.

Bert basically hit the nail on the head with this and i want to keep going in this direction without further trolling.

(Masoschism) #45

My chastisement was intended to show “tongue in cheek” to an extent. I certainly do not want to shut the conversation down. On the contrary, my comment was intended to keep it on the right track, which is exploratory. If you’re constantly worried about “stepping on someones toes” you can’t actually get anywhere. There will always be at least one set of toes between you and your destination.

That’s fine and fair, and you’ve provided an argument to support your disagreement which I very much appreciate. Now I will counter. Abilities are similar if and only if they cause you to make the same decisions for the same reasons. A monk can disable whenever the hell they want. The only reasons to not root with disable is to not put root on DR at an inappropriate time, or because you would rather just pew pew at that exact moment instead. Monk root is basically free otherwise.

The suggested ability is quite different. Trap is on a 30s CD. Concussive Shot is on a 5s CD. You are spending a valuable resource to get a trap + root off; in this case substantial future waiting time. Therefore the decision process is very different. It is decisions that really separate abilities. As I said, all abilities are derivative. How similar one small part of a mechanic may seem has nothing to do with how it fits into the class as a whole.

I am not against combos. If two abilities that are separately functionally useful can be used to cause thought and decisions multiplicatively that’s (potentially) a great way to increase skill. Precise Shots is the opposite of that. Precise Shots is an extension of Aimed Shot into another button, more globals and more focus. There is no decision there. I don’t choose to not cast Precise Shots right after Aimed Shot. I mean I could, but there is no reason not to. And even if I did, it can’t be anything more than a trivial decision, such as a target swap or I don’t have the focus.

Precise Shots adds zero skill to the spec. All it does it make us effectively worse at kiting by tying more of our damage into the stand still long cast Aimed Shot. Aimed Shot + Precise Shots is still making up more than 50% of my total damage. All of that damage requires me to stand still for longer than I have the tools to do so in PvP. It is a cancer in the spec that needs to be excised. What it is not is a “combo”.

Which is exactly why I do not want anyone shutting down ideas that “step on someone elses toes”. As I have said before, that concept has always been a fear, but has never proven itself in reality. No class has ever been diminished by someone else having a similar ability. Not in the entire history of the game.

It’s like if my neighbor had a dishwasher and I did not. I saw his dishwasher and thought, “I need to get me one of those”. If I then go out and buy a dishwasher my neighbors dishwasher is in no way diminished. The ability for his house to function is in no way harmed by my new dishwasher. Of course this is not a perfect analogy, but it is not intended to be. I am attempting to illustrate a point. Envy, or even worse, the unfounded fear that someone might feel the emotion of envy in the future is a contrivance. It never really happens on any large scale. It is the rare individual that has issue with someone else having the same toy as them. Those individuals need to be taught their behavior is not OK, not catered to on a population level.

Edit: I shouldn’t have used the word “envy”. That’s not the right word. It’s more like reverse envy, or “spoiled bratism” that I am referring to; where you don’t want someone else to have what you have, because then others will envy you less.

(Masoschism) #46

I should note that my diatribe above is not intended to be supportive for the proposed Trap + CS = root suggestion. I think it’s interesting, but not necessarily a good path towards a solution to the “MM problem”. I just didn’t want it shut down for the wrong reasons.

(Bertimus) #47

Something that needs to be pointed out:

The huge change to healer mana draws even more attention to the problems that this spec has. The name of the game now is avoiding/stopping damage to keep your healer from going oom. The classes that are good at it are the ones that either have spammable control abilities or a robust cycle of short cd control/utility abilities. MM is even worse off now because you have so few realistic stops and you are so squishy/immobile. A mana sponge if you will.

(Masoschism) #48

Thank you for pointing this out, and I agree with the logic, but it doesn’t really change anything. The same solutions to this problem are the same solutions to the problems the spec already has. We are already at 0% arena representation above 1800. This isn’t going to make matters worse, because there is nothing less than 0%.

Edit: Maybe it will make it impossible for the 5ish people who have comps/friends/skill that have made it to high level to retain that level. I feel for them. For the 100k rest of us however, it makes no nevermind.


First off i might of come off a little strong in my last post…i really should refrain from posting while at work so i apologize for that.

basically same thought i had and the reason i wanted to withdraw. Not because i was afraid of stepping on toes but more like i rather focus on ideas and contribute more to what MM needs. I dont care too much of i step on toes if the situation calls for it however i do like to be flexible and adaptive to fit in as many people as i can into 1 idea if that makes any sense.

(Bertimus) #50

Yep. Same problems, just even more unfavorable meta for that set of problems.

Random thought that occurred to me:
Survival of the fittest (the thing you get when not using pet) is an area with some potential imo. It could be another charge of turtle or something else better. 20% damage reduction for 6 seconds on a 3m cooldown is pretty bad.

(Eddyv) #51

I was the one that mentioned we had no consensus on a solution.

I agree most is us know what the problem is and have made it clear to blizzard regularly. But we have no consensus on what solution is appropriate for the class.

I hit 2700 last season and my third glad title (I come back off and on to test how things are). But this is the first season I literally haven’t touched PvP other than the first week. I have been singularly focused on pve because of how boring the game has gotten for pvp. And it’s only gotten worse.

Even if they gave MM scatter off trap DR it wouldn’t even make us good due to the fact we have garbage survivability and no way to hold our target in LoS to actually pressure/force CDs.

Dilly has mentioned this before and the pure fact is hunters can’t exist in a meta that’s slow unless they fundamentally change our class. We are a bursty CC class that requires momentum to be viable.

Back in Wrath all my damage was in 10-12 sec CD burst. You would do aimed/chimera as your main burst and fill with other abilities. This allowed constant pressure on DPS for every single trap.

Currently the only real pressure we create is through popping TS. But this is a fundamental problem with blizzards design in general. They wanted to make cooldowns super powerful in PvE to make people feel like super heroes for a short window.

I hope they take the feed back this expansion and really fix hunter for 8.2 or 9.0.

(Bertimus) #52

Well since we haven’t really had much back and forth with blizzard on it, it’s kind of hard to get random people on the internet to come up with the same random solutions independently from each other. I don’t disagree that the overall design is not the best, but the damage is definitely good enough to be workable now.

Whether the solution is baseline disorient scatter and binding and postehaste moved to different rows, or a tar trap root + disorient scatter, or anything else, they’re all solutions in the same direction. I think scatter dr is as close to unanimous as possible. I think the need for the root is unanimous, just where is it going to come from. 3-target cleave minimum is another.

(Eddyv) #53

Here’s the solutions I can think of from the multitude of posts hunters have made:

  1. Scatter off DR

  2. Either add or replace Unused existing PvP talents to give us entrapment back for tar trap (first time an enemy enters trap they are rooted for 4 seconds).

  3. Given trick shots has 6 target cap it should not have a 3 target minimum. Even in PvE where this change was focused leaves MM as trash tier in council/cleave fights and mediocre in parts of M+ like reaping or high tier keys where you are either doing big pulls or cleave pulls depending on what your group can handle. The mechanic is also very clunky when adds are moving around since it’s easy for an add to escape the range and for us to lose out on AoE dps.

Things I’ve noticed that can be easily resolved/balanced:

  1. T15 (first tier) of talents has horrible options and MaMa is the only one. Make serpent sting interact with piecing shots so it does 75% more damage. It would had complexity and flavor to the class. Also serpent sting is the only dot in the game I believe that doesn’t benefit from pandemic, I’ve brought this up but I don’t know if it’s a bug.

  2. Make hunters mark undispellable, it’s already a giant indicator we are going to train/kill the target and one of the only good talents in this tier. HM should only be removed by rogue vanish.

  3. Buff/change streamline to be 20-30% haste instead of duration increase. The duration increase doesn’t interact/benefit with/from Surging Shots and also the duration increase makes the ability feel MORE clunky.

  4. Honestly nerf Trueshot to 50% CD reduction and 30% cast speed on aimed shot. And as compensation move aimed to 2 sec cast and steady to 1.5 sec cast. Spread out our damage from being almost completely centered around Double Tap and Trueshot to more consistent damage.

None of these changes being recommended are outside of any changes that have happened for other classes. These changes also don’t take the core class design in some far off direction.

(Bertimus) #54

Another idea:

Binding should switch places on the talent tree with trailblazer, and it should be a shorter cooldown since it’s just a root now. There are too many root breaks on short cd for it to be a 45s cooldown. A 4s root on 25s cooldown would be much better, and moving it off the postehaste row makes it actually usable. You’d also have to drop camo for it which is a fair trade.

I also very much like the idea of making streamline just do more shots in the same time as opposed to increasing the duration of it. Having it last longer messes you up in trueshot since trueshot doesn’t increase the cast speed of rapidfire. I also think it makes sense to switch hunters Mark with master marksman, as masters marksman fits better in the “things that generate or save focus” row.

(Masoschism) #55

Except that it isn’t. Camo is a playstyle. It allows me to play a Hunter. A root is a functional necessity for the spec. There is no trade-off there. There is no choice. We would simply lose Camo as a playstyle. Just because you may not care about camo as a playstyle doesn’t mean it wouldn’t suck for the rest of us that like to play that fantasy.

Both should be baseline. The spec requires a root to function and it should therefore be a baseline ability. Everyone knows it needs a root. Making necessary abilities into talents removes choice. Look at Posthaste and Scatter Shot. Every single MM has both of those because the spec can’t function without them; ergo they should not be talents or should have direct competition in the exact same vein (like the Disengage talent tier from MoP/WoD e.g.).

Camo was always baseline. It is just how a Hunter plays: in the shadows, choosing targets. That’s quintessential. It should baseline again.

(Masoschism) #56

Hunter’s Mark also has no right being a talent. It is something we have had since the beginning of time. It is rogue/druid bane and I want it back baseline. Change the 5% damage to whatever, remove the wonky focus generation that encourages bad gameplay.

I want these things back baseline because the current design is awful. They have sucked the soul out of MM. Talents can’t be interesting when they are all either regifted previous baseline abilities or competing with them.


(Bertimus) #57

I feel you. I’d like that too and if they’re willing to do it mid-expac great. If not, I think what I suggested is better than what we have now.

(Masoschism) #58

It allows you to do what (I assume by previous posts) you want to do most; play arena. It takes away my ability to stalk, because I would have to chose the path that made me actually effective over the one that did not.

Regardless, there is no reason to assume swapping a talent is “more desirable” to the devs than making it baseline. That is pure assumption with no basis in history. Instead of “compromising”, state what is needed. You can’t compromise when you don’t know what the other side wants, so don’t try.

A root could easily be what the spec needs. If it needs a root, that automatically means it doesn’t need it as a talent. It doesn’t need fewer choices. It just needs more. It’s simple math really. 1+1-1 = 1. That’s not more, that’s just moving the numbers around.

(Bertimus) #59

I definitely understand what you’re saying. Its not the BEST solution, but a possible one that wouldn’t require them to come up with new talents. You are right in that it would be an arena focused change and that you’d be relatively the same in world pvp since you’d still be using the same camo + postehaste talents. Imo the current toolkit is much stronger there than arenas, so i see it as a net positive. Your thoughts are definitely valid though.

(Bepples) #60

I really enjoy your uncrompromising approach to these discussions.

That may sound sarcastic, but it’s fully sincere. Hunters have compromised away too damn much since WoD and it feels like every other patch we are expected to give something new up while melee specs seem to be getting everything they ever ask for. I’m tired of it. I’m sick of dreading each patch for what it removes from the class.

Too many people are willing to settle for “small tweaks” on the current design. I find myself doing it sometimes. Screw that. IMO every single PvE and PvP talent that used to be baseline needs to be made baseline once again. Come up with new talents or GTFO.

Another one is Careful Aim. Pretty much necessary, also provides an execute that is otherwise missing. Both Careful Aim itself AND an actual execute used to be baseline.