8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion


(Kajeron) #247

There is something cathartic about it


#248

im mostly speaking from a pvp perspective. We barely have anything that can save us from getting trained by a freaking melee. How long can we keep casting steady shot to keep concussive up to keep em away from us? What about trying to escape a freaking rogue when they can just shadow step through it & even still break all of our CCs? We need more and its just the bottom line. 0.0% representation in 2100 arena brackets should be alarming to people and shows that we need most of our abilities back.


(Xaedys) #249

You understand that that’s not a problem with Steady Shot, right? Like, Steady Shot may be what you cast there to keep Conc Shot active (I’m assuming from context, I don’t PvP in the slightest), but that’s not an issue with Steady Shot, that’s an issue with our anti-kiting kit as a whole, and more broadly, our survivability kit as a whole. Focusing on Steady Shot seems a bit silly.


(Kabbie) #250

The thing I don’t like about Steady Shot (and I’m aware that I’m comparing it to old SV’s Cobra Shot here, so YMMV) is that all it does is generate focus. If I have enough focus like when Surging Shots goes on a roll and gives me a lot of Rapid Fire procs, then I don’t need to cast Steady Shot. If it had a secondary function on top of generating focus - like lowering the CD on TS, giving a damage bonus to the next shot, or resetting the timer on a DOT like Piercing Shots - then it would feel more…extra.


(Masoschism) #251

Its problematic in the cases where you need focus but can’t get any because your target is pillar humping. That’s not a “real” issue because the kit is so bad you can’t even step foot into an arena, but if we could it would be a problem.

Regardless, the fix is not in making Steady Shot instant (*), but in other solutions that I and others have posted, such as a baseline root and fixing the tools we do have to work more reliably in a PvP situation.

  • I also like Steady Shot as a cast time mechanic. It is somehow satisfying. I do wish the cast time was quicker however (1.5s base), like it was in the past. The spec in that regard feels too slow.

(Xaedys) #252

But would it, really? Like, if it had some secondary effect, and you do get a Surging Shot splurge, now you’re stuck either feeling bad because you’re wasting energy by overcapping and casting Steady anyway for its secondary benefits, or feeling bad because you’re not casting Steady and no longer getting the ancillary benefits from it. It would make focus regen from other sources less potent, because those other focus regen sources would reduce usage of Steady Shot and thus reduce those ancillary benefits. No thanks.

A good example of this is Barbed Shot for BM. They cast Barbed Shot to maintain the buff. The energy regen is completely secondary. If for some reason they end up overcapping energy due to casting that Barbed Shot, they don’t really care, because maintaining the buff is the more important part.

Precise Shots already operate as the inverse for MM during Trueshot. We’re getting this resource, these charges that make Arcane more potent, but we don’t care one wit about the RNG 2nd charge and completely ignore it. The only reason we use the first one is because it’s free and we need an occasional GCD anyway to space out our AiS and RF casts due to their CDs, even hasted as they are by Trueshot.

So two key examples of systems that already feel a bit clunky because the system in place actively encourages ignoring a resource at times.


(Kabbie) #253

That would simply mean making the secondary effect good, but not so good that it takes priority over every other choice.


(Airese) #254

Maybe changing rapid fire to focus spender and have steady shot as the only active focus generator mighy alleviate a couple of concerns? Increase baseline focus per second generation at the same time?


(Bertimus) #255

That would massively cripple the existing rotation/kit. You’d have to make some part of it hit way harder to compensate for the reduced number of shots you’re able to get off. Rapid fire is about 30% of your total focus regen, and if you’re using focused fire, that’s another 15%.


#256

I feel the same way, but minor secondary benefits feel to me like an attempt to force me to use a steady shot centered style when that fits poorly with the PVP content I prefer. Personally I’d prefer that they just get rid of steady shot entirely, and just give us faster focus regen or focus from autoattacks or go back to mana or something.


#257

I think Steady Shot is in fact the problem. The way things are set up, Blizzard apparently thinks that Steady Shot is a kiting tool, but when you use it that way, you can’t use much of anything else, so Steady Shot has to be all of the kiting kit. In theory if melee just kept blindly following you without closing, we could kill somebody in 5 minutes or so, but who the heck is going to keep getting kited for 5 minutes?

I do agree with those who don’t think the fundamental issues are getting fixed before 9.0. In the meantime, maybe we can get a couple of quick fixes like making scatter shot a stun and maybe a slight (5-10%) buff to overall DPS, including aimed shot. I’d also suggest a reduction in steady shot cast length during trueshot so trueshot was limited by the aimed shot cooldown instead of the steady shot cast time, but Blizzard would be sure to pair that with an aimed shot nerf, so no thanks.


(Straferr) #258

I actually wonder if changing the gcd for hunters would help fix the flow of the spec especially in pvp.

Rogues got to keep it at 1 sec but haste doesn’t lower the gcd below 1 sec for them. For everyone else it seems that haste can lower the gcd to .75 sec.

If hunters had the same system I think that would help alot in pvp. You could get more arcane shots out between concussive shots and we would be able to focus our stats more towards mastery and crit as a side benefit, which may help bump the damage up slightly overall.


(Bertimus) #259

No, this wouldn’t do anything to address the problems in PvP. The damage is fine. The problem is the non-damage kit. The entire matrix of mobility, control, and defensives is just not there. This spec excels when it has control tools. It can’t and won’t work without them, just like fire mage wouldn’t work without DB, nova(s), shimmer, temp, etc.


(Straferr) #260

I agree the damage is fine, and you are absolutely right about the kit needing more utility.

The gcd does affect gameplay though. For instance if you cast concussive shot which lasts 6 seconds, with a 1.5 second global, thats 4 arcane shots before needing to reapply concussive shot, otherwise you need to weave in steady shot. Now keep in mind the slow of concussive is 50% whereas most melee classes have access to 70% slows or some form of immunity to them, so they will catch up to you without needing to use gap closers, and save those for when we disengage/bursting shot.

Being able to to do more in a 6 second window would help immensely imo and seeing that we probably won’t get any utility changes until next expac, a gcd change might be something doable.


(Bertimus) #261

Here’s the highlights from the forbes article:

Class Changes and Revamps

  • Full class overhauls are something that happens in a new expansion update and not a patch.
  • Legion was an exception because it reinvented so many specs from the ground up.
  • Rotational changes, removing/adding abilities, etc are a jarring experience. This is the sort of change that is best received within the broader sweeping changes of a new expansion.
  • They will always address under performing talents or classes in patches.
  • There are definitely specs on the radar for a rework, but nothing to announce now.

I think even some of my ideas are out of scope. Strike any new talents or abilities from the board. I think best we could possibly hope for is a little bit of talent shuffling, scatter DR change, and maybe some numeric tuning. RIP.


(Xaedys) #262

I just find it so insulting that they completely ignored us for literally two months, leaving MM in a half-finished state with no word or indication of what was going on, during the main trunk of the beta, and then by the time they got back around to us, it was too late and they were doing numbers tuning and feature-freezing the major ability iteration. And then they release it, and now we’re told that the stuff they failed to complete during beta isn’t something they’re willing to do at all in major patches, and essentially that we’re SOL on any of the major necessary fixes they should have made during BETA (!!!) until the next expansion.

Like, I just don’t get their thought-process here. They revamped MM for Legion, it was lukewarm at best, so they decided to revamp it again for BfA, but devote barely more dev resources to it than they do specs just receiving a bit of polish iteration on their Legion incarnation. If you futzed the first revamp, wouldn’t you want to make certain you stuck the landing on the second one?


(Bertimus) #263

Thank you!!

Don’t completely tear down and rebuild a spec if you’re not going to be able to do it right! For those of us who play it, it makes the whole expansion suck!


(Masoschism) #264

Or just not revamp it at all. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

Oh, that’s right they had to revamp it because they promised to integrate the beloved and deleted ranged SV into MM…


(Masoschism) #265

I’ve given up on my MM. It’s just too depressing in PvP. I’ve been playing an Ele Shaman recently. It’s a really good kiting class, though a few melee are still extremely problematic. It has a ton of similar tools to MM, but they all work. It definitely doesn’t have the same feel. I miss using a bow and I miss being a NE, but functionally it’s quite nice and remarkably effective at mobile burst, battlefield control, and the survivability is insane. I really miss my hunter though. :slightly_frowning_face:


(Kajeron) #266

I was legit worried about you because you stopped posting for so long.

The only hope i would say is for essences. In that note do any of you guys know if the honor talent essence will help?