8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion

(Straferr) #226

The idea was having a talent for different forms of content, so in theory for say arena and most pvp situations you would take aspect of the fox.

For group pve content, yes hawk would be the normal choice of talent, however I imagined the debuff applied by hawk to affect everyone in the raid’s dps while being unstackable. So in theory if you had 2 MM hunters they could work out between them which talent to take. The idea behind monkey is to provide a niche use for certain encounters such as rbg and arena, and for certain raid situations which deal heavy physical damage.

Especially for arena, a talent like this could become a very high skill cap ability as you can dodge certain cc abilities, but in that case I would probably make it 100% dodge chance for 3 seconds to really get some use out if it.


Why would you have talents on the tree specifically for PVP when there are PVP talents? I hate when that excuse is used as a reason for effectively dead pve talents are left unchanged because they see a lot use in PVP. The devs should move those talents to the PVP talent list, not leave it to compete with other PVE talents.

(Straferr) #228

Thats a good point. I guess I see the plight of MM hunters as overall in both PvE and PvP content as a lack of utility. There does need to be talents that give us more utility.

I am happy personally where the damage is atm, but there is nothing a hunter brings to the table utility wise that makes us competitive. The idea behind the aspects is to provide a more team focused utility that makes us unique. I would agree that something like fox should be a PvP talent but it would become a mandatory talent immediately which is also annoying.

Also I don’t agree that fox is a useless talent for PvE, as movement intense fights can warrant the use of this talent choice.

(Kajeron) #229

You are correct. Especially if it works like spirit walkers grace where you can cast it mid cast. If people are worried about pve viability you could always attach something like crit chance increase like last xpac aimed shot lego

(Xaedys) #230

Oh YAY, so one hunter gets to be the Curse of Elements dude for the raid, and the other gets to have full mobile DPS. Ya, that sounds so much better.

Hey, there’s this cool system called PvP talents. That’s where talents oriented towards PvP belong. Don’t add talents specifically intended to be largely useless in PvE content to the PvE talent tree.

As above. Also, the vast vast majority of raid AoE, even physical (like Grong’s Tantrum), are not dodgeable. Your Monkey would effectively amount to a really bad tank CD and nothing more, at least in PvE.

It’s not that it’s useless. It’s actually fairly powerful, though to be honest, the higher your skill with the spec and with paying attention to boss timers, the less useful the talent becomes. Perhaps if it were passive, simply letting you cast Aimed on the move, but moving reduced the damage of it, it might be a bit more useful, but ultimately it still would suffer from the same issue: the better you are at optimizing your movement, the worse the talent becomes. In an ideal situation, the talent is worth zero DPS, but even the best MM hunters occasionally have to interrupt Aimed for movement, so in practice it’d always be worth something, just less the better you are at timing your casts around forced movement.

No, the fundamental problem with that talent is that your proposal pitted it against a raid DPS bonus, which would be absolutely and completely mandatory. Fox wouldn’t even slightly be an option unless you had more than one MM hunter, and then one of those MM hunters gets to be the unlucky one and bring the raid buff instead of Fox while the rest get to enjoy their mobile DPS

(Rockford) #231

:point_up_2: This.
Never have a situation where a talent that increases dps (personal or raid wide), has to compete with QoL or utility.

If you’re the only Hunter, it’s a tier that is completely, and utterly lost, and would promote groups to demand Hawk or GTFO. Do you really want that for hunters seeking help from a pug?

Meanwhile in a raid setting, there’s one Hunter stuck with the needed raid buff, while others are allowed to run Fox.

Monkey, screams PvP, and should only considered as such. As a PvE Hunter with threat tools at it’s disposal, unless there are extremely niche circumstances (almost non existent) would be doing something very, very wrong to even need dodge in the toolkit.

(Straferr) #232

The way fox used to work was to provide the movement while casting bonus to the entire raid for a few seconds. So if it functioned like that it wouldn’t be the case that one hunter has the advantage over the other so hunters could work out between themselves which talent to take without anybody losing out. Though to avoid stacking, it would need to apply a raid wide debuff like bloodlust does.

You have a good point with the monkey talent though. The idea behind it is to have a raid wide defensive cooldown that would be helpful, so dodge may not be the best stat to use. But something like reducing enemies chance to hit might be better as that affects spells also.

I think we need more hybrid talents and have the PvP talents only be useful for PvP, It sucks feeling like you are missing half your kit when you are in a dungeon or raid.

For instance the trueshot PvP talent is excellent for PvE content as it reduces your CD and restores focus to full when activated ensuring you can maximize your dps, that would be a better talent if it was available for PvE, but it is still great for PvP, so we need more talents along those lines.


Hell let’s make melee survival a tank. Change two talents.

Aspect of the monkey

The hunter, takes on the characteristics of a monkey. Increasing Dodge by x and chance to Parry by x.

Survival instincts,

Increases the hunters health and armor gain by 40 percent.

Heightened Awarness
Increases the hunters Dodge and Parry by an additional 20 percent, reduces all dmg taken by 20 percent. 2 minute CD.

Already have cleave and an engage.


The hunter launches a harpoon at his target. Dragging the hunter to the target and generating high threat to all enemies within 10 yards.

Wildfire bombs,

The hunter drops wildfire bombs on all targets within 8 yards, dealing 1276 dmg to all enemies hit, and decreasing their attack speed(or reducing dmg done by x percent against the hunter).

Spirit Bond,( combine with flanking strike)

The hunter calls on the spirits of his animal companions to heal for x percent of the dmg he deals over the next 6 seconds(or make it a passive tied in with flanking strike)

Flanking strike, spirit bond(combine)

The hunter and the pet coordinate to attack. Allowing the hunter to heal up to 35 percent of the dmg received over the last 5 seconds. (Kinda like death strike but not as a shield, just raw healing through his spirit bond).

Should I keep going? This is kinda interesting at least.

(Bertimus) #235

Honestly at this point the question is scope. We need direction as to what is on the table for mid-expansion.

(Kajeron) #236

To that end i think wholesale revamps are off the table. I think small talent tuning would be possible. Although i think if they were thinking of anything as major as a new talent we would have heard something.

(Rockford) #237

Agreed. Despite what’s said to improve MM, were not going to be seeing drastic change until 9.0 at the earliest.

Talent revision is possible, though really not expecting much now for 8.2, despite feedback given.

I dare say that many specs are just left operational, while the design team is now focusing on internal builds for the next expansion. Though I’ve been disappointed before…

(Kajeron) #238

Getting rid of the steady shot build being the main spec was an improvement.

(Rockford) #239

Oh, absolutely!
That happens in builds that promote styles of play that are unintended.


Another week, another PTR Build without class tuning or changes. I tend to agree with the opinion there won’t be anything except tuning changes (and precious few of those) until 9.0 prepatch. I think the next tuning round will be for week 1 of mythic AEP, after they have some live data on throughput changes with new essence system.

(Airese) #241

Personally, I prefer more active abilities as baseline…like 5 or 6 buttons to press as baseline, as oppose to 3 or 4 baseline and the current talent system where active and passive talents on the same row.

More abilities as baseline may allow Blizzard to be more creative with the baseline active abilities interaction/synergy in passive talents.

More active talents, like the current system, does not always ensure more buttons to press due to number tuning. There is always the chance that passive talents are more superior than active.

I understand that not everyone loves more button to press…but imo, 5 or 6 active baseline abilities plus some cool abilities interaction sound more fun than the current 3 or 4 active abilities plus possibly all passives talents.


Hope in 9.0 they get rid of steady shot. Its such a lame focus generator and you hardly need to cast it unless you’re trying to kite a melee but we all know how that goes since everyone has a movement mitigation…

(Xaedys) #243

Not needing to cast it is more a product of our focus tuning than it is the ability itself. Still, I think you’re under-estimating its usage. In PvE at least, MM spends a bit over 20% of its total rotational time casting Steady Shot (about 12s per minute, or around 8-10 casts per minute).

I mean, I’ll grant you that Steady Shot does very low damage. It only accounts for about 6% of our total DPS. But then, it’s our spammable generator, it shouldn’t do strong damage, else our consumers have to be weaker than they currently are (both in absolute terms and relative to our generators), making the entire rotation and optimizing our resource usage feel less rewarding.


They should make it an instant cast with a different name in my opinion like how arcane shot was a generator in legion since it does whack damage. Our only heavy hitter is AiS so I see nothing wrong with it being an insta cast. It’d also give us an option to use a different talent other than master marksman cause we could be able to get energy back quicker. Even then I probably would still use master marksman though

(Airese) #245

For reasons quite mysterious even to myself, I prefer cast time steady shot over instant arcane shot as focus generator.

(Xaedys) #246

Arcane as a generator felt terrible. Chain-spamming instacast abilities for resources doesn’t feel good on a caster-style class hence why BM has downtime in its rotation, so you’re not just chain-casting instants all day). Having a quick instacast as our spammable consumer is a much better model, tbh, it lets us get the quick shots in when we need, but they actually feel reasonable to use, since they are at least a consumer and thus limited in spamming. Besides, what’s the issue with the cast time on Steady? It’s not like it limits our movement.