8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion

(Kajeron) #206

I know replying to just this small part doesnt do it justice but I’m tired. If you could bank or store stacks it would give viability to other talents. It would also preserve the current design if master marksman was taken because you would still want to use that proc and not back to back aimed shot.

(Bertimus) #207

Yep. It fixes a lot of problems without modifying the core kit much or adding new spells. I am definitely not trying to build the ideal version of mm in this thread, I just want to keep the perspective of what is likely on the table for mid-expansion.

We didn’t like vulnerable either but they eventually iterated it to a point where it worked, felt decent to use, and had advantages. Legion mm wasn’t my favorite but I still had a lot of fun playing it. I can enjoy an expansion if I can enjoy my mainspec.

(Xaedys) #208

The other avenues I recommended were talents, and just multiple options for talents they could implement. The suggestion was, baseline, only having one avenue: Aimed Shot applies it to the target. It also wouldn’t really be intended for AoE, we have Trick Shot for that, though I wouldn’t necessarily contest Legion’s Marked Shot for AoE (sans Legion’s Vulnerable mechanic and the RNG marking)

(Airese) #209

I know and understand the fishing for proc issue, like the 8.0 steady aimed trait issue. I guess precise shot is so bland imo and restrictive (gcd issue…etc) currently that I am hoping for something more exciting.

Maybe every target that is hit by arcane shot, multishot, rapidfire and aimedshot has a chance to proc an extra shot on that target(s). This is to account for st and aoe.

(Kajeron) #210

This would essentially be shaman elemental overload. I think it would be more bland because it would not be as visually interacting or require button presses.

(Kajeron) #211

I feel our aoe is already weak. If we are reducing our aoe then we need to compensate somehow.

(Xaedys) #212

Surprisingly, our AoE is stronger than most people realize. It’s not Outlaw level AoE, of course, but it’s still very solid, especially when you factor in cooldowns. Both Double Tap and Trueshot can provide immense boosts to AoE damage when uses properly.

Still, as I said, I wouldn’t contest something like Marked Shot returning, provided it left behind Legion’s version of the Vulnerable mechanic, and ideally left behind the RNG Marking Targets system as well. In the system I proposed, there’s no reason Aimed Shot couldn’t apply the mark to every target hit (via Trick Shots), either natively or as the result of a talent.

(Kajeron) #213

I think the main problem i have with that is the debuff being applied to the target instead of being on the hunter. That would be a massive downgrade. Marked shot was fun. However they only non clunky way of applying it i can think of is through arcane or multi shot.

Full disclosure i am a fan of the current way the spec plays. Also i was super bored yesterday and probably today.

(Airese) #214

I am a little confused or I am confusing you.
I meant aimed, rapidfire, arcane and multi shot have a chance at activating another different shot… Unlike elemental overload.

(Kajeron) #215

Yes i was confused. I understand now. You could essentially do the same thing with precise shots. The 2 differences in your suggestion is the proc is not automatic on every aimed shot, but can also proc of other abilities. The other difference is that there is a separate button. Is that accurate?

(Airese) #216

Yes. One more baseline ability to press.

(Straferr) #217

A change I would like is being able to dismiss pets in arena. Being able to use the different pet tree abilities would be helpful as well as making it easier to feign death camo when you need to. As MM it means you can actively plan on when you want to use the Lone Wolf buff for a burst and call out a pet when you need to play defensively.

(Kajeron) #218

Ok, now that i understand i prefer the more “reliable” application of what ever the buff is on aimed shot.

However having another button similar to marked shot to consume the buff rather then arcane or multi i could go either way with.

I think i like half your idea more then the other but it has merit.

(Kajeron) #219

Question for you guys, would baking master marksman into precise shots help at all? If precise shots didn’t cost focus then you would have more globals for other talents because you need less steady shot.

(Bertimus) #220

Yes. It’s a mandatory talent right now anyway. The question becomes what takes its place.

(Kajeron) #221

Yeah, i think it would have to be something passive to preserve that playstyle. But yeah i can’t think of a replacement.

I fixed hunters in Arenas you guys!
(Straferr) #222

The first tier needs a rework imo. I would like to see a return of some of our old aspects such as hawk, fox and monkey as talent choices in the first tier with some modifications.

Hawk instead of being a personal damage boost, I think it would be better if it applied an armour reduction debuff to anything hit with aimed shot to help hunters provide something useful for raid and dungeon encounters.

I think if we got aspect of the fox back as a passive talent that allows aimed shot to be cast while moving, maybe with reduced damged, that would be nice.

For Monkey I have two ideas of how this could work. Following with the aimed shot theme, it could increase dodge chance while casting aimed shot, this is a little bland but if it was a decent percentage it could see some use. The second idea was an active ability that applied a raid wide buff for a short duration that increases dodge chance, that would be a nice flavour and have niche uses in raid, rbg, dungeon and arena encounters. It might be a little much but I was thinking something like a 50% dodge chance for 6 seconds, 2 min cooldown.

I never liked MM having serpent sting as I don’t think of it as a DoT class and I don’t mind if it doesn’t have access to it. Same goes for crows.

As with master marksman I agree with above that it’s pretty cookie cutter at this point and should just be baked into precise shots.

(Kajeron) #223

THANK YOU! You gave me an idea. Master marks replacement. Aspect of the hawk. Speaking conceptually activate to make aimed shot movable while casting and have increased crit chance. Think of the lego from last xpac.

Giving it a focus neutral button and cooldowns adds some reactive play in pvp. Also the multi shot trait finally does something for marks.

(Bertimus) #224

I agree the first tier of talents is problematic. Master marksman is actually completely necessary for the base kit to work properly. Anything on its row, regardless of output becomes unusable. You cannot properly execute a trueshot sequence without it. You either end up ignoring even more arcane procs (losing damage) or not getting off as many aimed shots due to the need to break and steady mid trueshot (losing damage).

It would be easy to say “just make it baseline” or “bake it into precise shots” but then it has to be replaced with something. I just don’t know how many of our “things” that we are asking for baseline will or can be done mid expansion. Especially now that we again find ourselves deep into a ptr cycle with no meaningful changes announced.

I do think that master marksman at least would fit better on a different tier. It doesn’t make sense for a passive “focus saver” to be on the same row as two active abilities that cost focus. To me, it fits a lot better on the streamline row. But then you’d have to swap it with something there that also wouldn’t make sense in row one, or do a replacement somewhere.

Afraid they’ve designed themselves into a corner with many of these talents. Idk what the feasible mid-expansion answer is. Blue input would be super appreciated in that regard.

(Xaedys) #225

First off, your version of Hawk would make it a 110% mandatory talent in any sort of group content. There’s no possible way cast-on-the-move or a defense could possibly compete against any sort of raid damage boost. Group utility needs to either be baseline or not at all.

Second, I’m pretty sure you can’t even dodge while casting Aimed Shot (I know you can’t while actually casting things, I don’t know of Aimed Shot counts as a “cast”, though. Hunter shots are kinda weird, mechanically). Also, too many effects cannot be dodges, and the vast majority of group damage is undodgeable magic damage, so your raid version, despite being in theory group utility, would be literally useless against 99% of group damage.

You pretty much just grabbed a wishlist of things you wanted to see and threw them at the talent tree, which is not at all what talents are for. Group utility should be a baseline thing, because non-group-utility talents almost never win against group utility (see, for example, Ring of Peace, which it taken by something like 90% of monks of all 3 specs, with most of the remaining being Ox Statue, also good group utility, or Good Karma on fights that don’t benefit from RoP).

In addition, talents should provide similar benefits if they compete. Right here you’d have a raid DPS talent, an ease-of-use talent (especially if it’s an Aspect, it buys us very very little that we can’t already do due to the charge system on AiS), and a defensive/raid defensive talent. That’s a terrible choice to have to make.