8.1.5.x/8.2 Marksman Discussion

(Masoschism) #265

I’ve given up on my MM. It’s just too depressing in PvP. I’ve been playing an Ele Shaman recently. It’s a really good kiting class, though a few melee are still extremely problematic. It has a ton of similar tools to MM, but they all work. It definitely doesn’t have the same feel. I miss using a bow and I miss being a NE, but functionally it’s quite nice and remarkably effective at mobile burst, battlefield control, and the survivability is insane. I really miss my hunter though. :slightly_frowning_face:

(Kajeron) #266

I was legit worried about you because you stopped posting for so long.

The only hope i would say is for essences. In that note do any of you guys know if the honor talent essence will help?

(Bertimus) #267

They gave us knock trap, so not really. Knock trap is already redundant to bursting shot and they share the character forced movement DR.

(Masoschism) #268

Explosive Trap is far from redundant. It is twice as much of the same CC, but Explosive Trap can be placed anywhere, is a lot more reliable than Bursting Shot (though not reliable enough) and has a (much) larger area of effect. I can’t live without Explosive Trap. It’s probably my favorite ability. Saying its “redundant” is like saying having two stuns, or two roots, etc. that don’t DR is redundant. What it is, is insufficient.

We don’t have enough Honor Talents that really help. What will we take instead? Something meh. No one will use it over the other essences. Its useless in that regard.

(Yura) #269

I actually just hate this spec now. Worse than Legion.

(Bertimus) #270


Frost DK:


Additionally the tank changes and adjustments in the last build that didn’t get their own posts. It’s UNREAL that marks literally got 0 attention. It is still in a tier of it’s own in competitive PvP (not in a good way ofc) and has a forced build in PvE with all of the active talent choices being DPS LOSSES. This is so frustrating.

(Kabbie) #271

Blizz devs are like, “Marksman spec? That’s just a dude with a bow (or gun), how exciting can you possibly make that?”


Really the changes need to address a sudden bloat in marks. Rapid fire and the talent for it, making a channeled move part of the rotation is not good. Reduce the cast time of steady shot and buff it’s dmg a bit.

Really though removing rapid fire and then changing steady shot some would alleviate the problems.

I’d rather they gave it cobra shot and baked in some more (old survival). Serpent sting baseline and cobra shot as a focus Regen and refreshing serpent. You’d get better sustained. Have a reason to cast your builder(physical and nature dmg) would show as a buff while kiting.

(Kajeron) #273

I would not like this. Rapid fire is one of the coolest abilities we have gotten in ages. Cobra shot would be redundent with arcane and is visually horrible. What you describe may be fun but its not marksman.

(Xaedys) #274

It’s a bit thematically odd, since firing arrows/bullets that fast on any of the weapons we have access to (bows, crossbows, or musket/blunderbuss type firearms) is flat out impossible. It also has a fairly lukewarm animation, where we just kinda spasm for a few seconds, and the length of the channel contributes to the “slow” feeling for the spec.

That said, it sorta fits the bill for the instacast short-CD signature nuke that Chimera Shot used to fill (except for the instant damage that Maso wants from such an ability niche). My beef with it is mostly that it’s a generator rather than a consumer. In any generator/consumer model, the idea is that generators are low damage, but generate resources to enable the higher-damage consumers. You cast your consumers as much as possible, and your generators when you can’t consume (plus some variance based on ancillary effects, like monks weaving in generators due to their mastery, even if they have the Chi to use a consumer. Resource pooling is also a thing).

Rapid Fire up-ends this. It is our second-highest DPCT ability, behind only Precise-buffed Arcane (and possibly not even that with the addition of Focused Fire and Surging Shot, I’ve not looked at the DPCT comparison in a while), and yet it’s also a generator, and a reasonably significant one (though it’s still our lowest source of focus, it’s still responsible for ~20% of our total focus generation). This causes significant distortion in our rotation, because our highest-priority DPS ability is also a generator, and thus we have to avoid both being too low on resources (and thus not being able to use our consumers when we need to) or being too high on resources (and thus wasting regen from RF).

This is exacerbated by the RNG generation added by Focused Fire and the RNG reset provided by Surging Shots. Now, instead of simply keeping an eye on the CD, we have to account for the fact that every AiS may reset it, so we always have to keep our focus low. Focused Fire, on average, increases the focus generated by RF by 60% (a normal RF hits 10 times for 10 focus. On average, 3 of those will trigger Focused Fire, for an extra 6 focus), but can up to triple the focus regen (which, to be fair, is only a 1 in 170,000 chance, but there’s a 4.7% chance, 1 in 21, that it will generate at least double the focus).

If RF were a consumer, like we begged for, repeatedly, during the alpha and beta, this issue wouldn’t exist. Heck, they had to change our mastery back in beta just to avoid making RF a consumer. RF as a consumer, compensated by either a higher passive regen or a higher regen per Steady Shot (either would work, really, but passive would be better for a number of reasons), would make both RF and MM as a whole play and feel a ton better.


I really don’t see rapid fire as a builder being an issue. It’s not difficult to play around the fairly small focus generation. If you make it a consumer you just take away even more difficulty from the spec because it’s literally just make sure you aren’t completely out of focus and press rapid fire on cd, instead of making sure you won’t overcap beforehand. I like it as a builder and I hope they don’t change it, though fixing the other talents to allow for some more complexity would be nice.

(Xaedys) #276

First, RF, including the passive regen for the channel duration, can generate up to 36 Focus over its duration with Focused Fire, and on average will generate 22. That’s not very minor, all things considered. It’s half again as much as Steady Shot, over barely longer duration. And the reset from Surging Shots means you have to be in a position to cast it after every Aimed Shot usage.

That said, all short-CD rotational nukes are that way. Heck, RF by in large is too, because the DPS loss from overcapping focus is less than the DPS loss from delaying RF. There’s just optimization to be done in avoiding that overcapping, but there’s little difference between that optimization and ensuring you have the focus to cast it on CD. Having limits on both ends of the focus bar, however, narrows our range of permissible focus, which makes resource management more of a chore than it really should be, even for a generate/consume spec.


I’m not going to take the time to do the math right now, but changing rapid fire to a spender wouldn’t really increase the permissible range of focus, it just shifts it higher up the scale. It might actually get even narrower depending on how high the focus cost would be. The resource management doesn’t really feel like a chore to me, maybe it does to you and others but to me it just adds a little more depth to the spec.

Mostly I just hate pressing steady shot and don’t trust the devs to not mess up the focus generation if they change rapid fire to a spender lol.

(Xaedys) #278

Not even slightly. Right now, you need to maintain enough focus to cast AiS (30), plus possibly the follow-up 2nd Precise Shot, if it procs, though this strictly speaking doesn’t have to happen instantly. So 30 is your minimum there. RF can generate up to 36, so you can’t be higher than 64 before you cast it. So your band at this point is 34 focus wide.

If it were a consumer, you’d need to be able to cast AiS + RF back to back. In order for your band to be narrower than it is now, RF would have to cost at least 44 focus (you passively regenerate 7.5 focus during the cast time of AiS), and that’s extremely unlikely. More than likely it would cast 10-20, akin to Chimera Shot back in WoD.

(Bertimus) #279


Ok so first of all, playing around the max possible focus gen of rapid fire is pretty pointless because, as you said in a previous post, that’s a 1:170000 chance. You’ll basically never generate more than 31 (1% chance per cast).

Second, staying under 69 focus is only applicable for a normal cast of rapid fire, which is exceedingly easy to prepare for and no different than any other generator for any other spec. For a proc from aimed shot, which is the real issue, you only need to be under 100-31(rf)+30(AiS cost)-7.5(passive gen during AiS)=91 focus. That gives you a range of 61 focus that’s acceptable.

(Masoschism) #281

Let me throw in my opinion. This is largely an agreement with Xaedys so I will be brief.

My issues with Rapid Fire:

  • Who shoots that fast? No one irl or fantasy. It’s WAY too fast to make any sense and destroys the immersion. That doesn’t mean the idea has no merit, but that many shots per second is ludicrous. Maybe two per second might make more sense to the senses.
  • Because of the above, the animation looks quite literally like an epileptic fit, further destroying the immersion.
  • The channel time is way too long contributing to the slow feeling of the spec, which is ironic all things considered. Maybe reduce it to two shots per second for two seconds instead.
  • While it does contribute to “on demand” burst loosely, its long channel time reduces our ability to perform the PvP essential requirement for on demand instant burst.

As for it being a builder vs. a spender I am on the fence. I agree with Xaedys argument against; it does require unnecessary focus management, but it is manageable. I think the more important problem is that having such a high damage ability as a builder caused all of our abilities to be put on mastery. This caused the delta between Steady Shot and Arcane shot to be static. While that delta has been increased since the beginning, this fact along with Precise Shots ensures that Arcane Shot will never feel good to cast as a filler.

I do also think the spec would flow better if Rapid Fire was a spender and our native focus regen was increased.

That should be 4.7% for more than double, or 15.0% for at least double (probability of five or more successes out of ten with p = 0.3).

Shouldn’t that be 39 and 25?

The expected value for Focus Fire regen is 6, plus the native regen is 3*3=9, plus 10 base = 25 focus, etc. for the 39.

(Masoschism) #282

What exactly constitutes a “full class overhaul” is ambiguous. This statement has no meaning without being more explicit and is otherwise subject to the interpretation of the individual reader. By many measures it’s also a provable lie.

It could be (and has been) argued that BfA had as many or more changes to the way classes functioned than Legion.

This is just an outright lie to cover the fact that they don’t seem to want to fix BfA’s, Legion’s, and WoD’s (accumulated) classes’ mistakes.

This is also another insultingly obvious lie. Even worse, those changes that they do make more often than not completely ignore consensus feedback. I mean like, who cares that they are increasing the dot damage for Arms mastery because Arms is underperforming. It’s a fix that is the exact opposite of consensus feedback.

What is “reasonable” is unknown and unknowable. What I consider my best suggestion to minimally fix the spec is completely doable in a patch. I could code it and test it in a day. Let me reiterate those changes.

  • Remove Careful Aim, replace that talent with Kill Shot, and adjust Aimed Shot damage up by 15-20%.
  • Add back in the baseline ability Careful Aim that increases crit chance by 30% when the target is above 80% (to retain that “sniper” feel without regular Aimed Shot feeling bad to cast).
  • Remove Precise Shots and add a armor bypassing shot with a 4-6 RPPM (or proc chance off of all actions) of equivalent damage to current total Precise Shots damage (equal to 1.5x per Aimed Shot) that stacks twice.
  • Allow Trick Shots to work with 2 targets with the same damage as now.
  • Make Binding Shot baseline, preferably with half the effect and half the CD.
  • Increase Bursting Shots AoE to 8 yards and 120 degree cone (or at least 90 degrees ffs).
  • Make Explosive Trap work more reliably
  • Make Tar Trap trigger before someone gets to the trap, not 2 yards after they run over it, and increase the AoE to 10 yards.

These last three are bug fixes. For the last two, they could copy/paste the code from previous iterations (Ice Trap and Explosive Trap from WoD e.g.). It could be argued the Trick Shots issue is a bug as well, though it was almost certainly an intentional bug.

This is far from my ideal MM. I’d have to talk about a plethora of talents; bringing back previously baseline abilities (Scare Beast, Aspect of the Beast e.g.); making baseline again all the talents that used to be baseline (SO many), and many other things that are wrong with the spec. But the above list covers almost all the deep issues in the current iteration and would help us fulfill our intended role in both M+ and all areas of PvP, as well as would just be a whole lot more fun to play.

(Yura) #283

yea it was cooler in 2012 when it was called barrage.

rapid fire is so slow it’s honestly a joke. the whole reason the spec is not fun to play is because we cast a slow aimed shot or channel a slower shot.

(Xaedys) #284

I stand corrected, I grabbed the wrong field from the binomial calculator (because I can’t be arsed to do that stuff by hand anymore). Good catch.

Another good catch, somehow I had it in my head that RF took 2.0s, not 3.0s. So yes, 39 and 25.