Do you honestly think that simply giving people gear is going to make them better? Because I see an awful lot of players in raids in 400 IL doing sub 10k with lust/heroism and in mythic+s who still don’t know dungeons and die to almost everything.
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I disagree - and objectively I don’t see how it doesn’t increase the pool size.
You can recruit for heroic/mythic raiding along with M+.
Agreed - in my opinion so does playing a game for fun and not worry about what gear people have above your own.
I understand the frustration - many smart people can do the things other people can do 5 years into career. They still have to go to school, get a degree, get an internship, get experience and then get hired into their first year of a career.
If they want to complain because they don’t get into 10’s - fine. People complaining about that kind of stuff are likely the people that can’t put in the time and effort into being a high end player for progression content. They can grind out their io scores like everyone else. That’s what I did on my alts - and I’ll admit, it is a bit annoying - but in my opinion it is well worth having a good pool of players to recruit from.
Do you know how many 400+ ilvl people I will recruit for a m+ that have never done a 10 or anything close?
Zero.
My recruiting pool did not increase. It stayed the same. It just became more annoying to wade through all the people that will apply now.
This isnt about worry about what gear people have. This is more worrying about the complaining people with that gear will do when they realize that gear doesn’t make the toon. This is more worry about the people that will insist mythic raiding or m+10 is over tuned. Because their 405 ilvl guy can’t do it.
And that dirty elitists are holding them back by not inviting them.
This isn’t directly about the gear. This is about the attitude that will come with the gear, that has been shown time and time again on these exact forums.
I find this specific sentiment interesting.
I am told not to worry about gear. Yet you get to worry about it, because you get to do it from the “moral high ground” approach.
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I am advocating for those seeing the worst of it. That’s why I liked the change Blizzard proposed in the OP.
Also, the arguments appear as “SJW nonsense” because they were a reflection of their inner evil upon extreme disagreement.
If you were like that guy and said “Agree to disagree, no insults” on first disagreement, I don’t mind.
It’s when you go into further extremes than that in which I tend to reflect insults given.
For example, Tewah. I stated a Wrath system, he thought I was lying. Repeatedly ignored evidence and said I was lying.
I wish Akston apologized.
The lady who got my thread unlisted/locked is up there too.
The lady in the pirate hat was also like Akston on the old forum.
Jalen/Baruup just immediately resort to insults.
I could go on for the one and dones, but decided to stop.
The people on my list aren’t doing a favor to kind elite players, either. Hence, Elitist.
By saying these things, like “abhorrent behavior”, make the problem worse, not better.
Maybe if you all apologized and stopped being who you are, then maybe I’d reconsider quitting.
Three days left still.
To be honest WoW has been continually favouring casual players increasingly over each expansion. BfA is by far the most casual friendly expansion that WoW has ever seen, with increases to RNG rewards, higher scaling WQ rewards, timed “big” rewards, and more catch up mechanics.
Esports have had their place (albeit more minor) in WoW since BC and the introduction of arena, with the “race for world first” being prevalent since Vanilla/BC also. None of this is really new to the game.
The big issue that I see is that regardless of content we were completing, all previous expansions felt like you had something to do when you logged on. Didn’t matter if you were doing Heroic dungeons, daily quests, or raids it always felt like you had some way of progressing your character. And how you achieved that was up to you.
These days it feels like there is nothing to work for as everything is handed to us, and instead we have a laundry list of weekly/daily/fortnightly requirements that we need to do because they grant far superior rewards to the standard content they come from.
We feel like we are getting less in BfA than in WotLK or TBC or MoP when really we are getting so much more. It has nothing to do with the game becoming more elitist or divergent but rather, in my opinion, because of how accessible it has become.
We expect more because we receive more, just like we never expected much because we never were handed much.
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What do you want me to apologize for? Specifically?
Calling you a troll back in October?
Eh, agree to disagree there.
The Elitists will find ways to bar people from their content regardless, see the Premade Group Finder Dungeons section.
The pure problem was, the Elitists, not kind elite players, were turning a day of celebration into “Why am I playing this game?”.
I should never have to feel like that as a casual player, but I do.
@Akston
Yes. Exactly. The moment I first called you out in March/Earlier this month, you should have.
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Can you define “elitist” real quick? What does that word mean to you?
If possible, what would be “borderline-elitist” … any example/scenario you could give?
Example:
Underrot Normal, leveling a Ret Pally.
Offending Elitist, a Priest, said we were all babies for body pulling.
When confronted, toxic insult “git gud” was used.
Borderline? I can answer that too.
“Normal Jaina, Link CE, 415+ iLevel, must be in Discord, don’t suck or speak up at all about our guild run.”
M+:
“+10, link Keystone Master and/or highest average IO score, 2k+ IO Score, Discord required, don’t suck or speak up about our small group of friends from the guild.”
I see. This is interesting.
You are demanding an apology from me for calling you a troll once 6-7 months ago when you regularly lied about me in multiple threads in multiple posts since? Stating you would only stop slandering me if I stopped disagreeing with you?
And to recap, lets look at what was being talked about 6-7 months ago.
Someone made this remark:
I like how the op calls everyone else elitists when the idea of starting from the bottom and working their way up is for some reason beneath them. They want to cut in line to the +10 and that sweet loot without doing the +2 in blues and 340 gear first. So they make these stupid “queue everything!” Posts because they think it will mean they will be carried to 370 and be part of some magic club.
Those darn elitists started 120 in leveling blues too. They just played the game, learned, socialized, and geared up over time.
This was your reply:
It’s not beneath me. It’s impossible.
This is when I stated you were either a troll or out of touch with reality. I 100% stand by those statements. For someone to say its literally impossible to level a toon to 120, and get geared up over time…is exactly that.
If you are waiting for an apology from me, then I am sorry (giggle). I will not be able to apologize for what I said back 6-7 months ago.
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To be fair the statement you made was
Which is incorrect because just having increased gear does not increase their ability or make them “better”.
Yes you have increased the pool, but you have diluted it and in essence dropped the skill average making the pool “worse”.
But how does this translate? I understand that people have better gear and it makes them “gear ready” for harder content. But being able to complete 20 WQs in a week and having 407 ilvl in no way prepares a player to complete Mythic raids, high M+, or even Heroic raids.
At the end of the day you would just be recruiting inexperienced people who are not ready for the content, hindering your guild, whilst also enabling the player themselves to fail.
Now I completely agree with you, but unfortunately it isn’t what we see from the community when translated to actual experience. People don’t want to re-run valueless content to get high raider io scores so that they can do content that is applicable to their gear, and why should they? They didn’t design the game in that way, so why should they be punished by doing obsolete content?
That is the issue with the availability of gear, if you hop, skip, and jump over content you are stuck with two inevitabilities. Either you are able to do higher difficulty content where chances are you will fail repeatedly due to lack of exposure to those situations previously, or you will be forced to do unrewarding content in order to build up experience and (in the case of raider io) an arbitrary score value to show that you can complete it.
I can’t see how this design is better than allowing players to follow a linear progression where they are constantly rewarded whilst doing slightly more difficult content so that they can naturally progress in skill and gear.
When a child learns to swim late at age 5 or 10 we don’t just chuck them in the deep end and say “well everyone else your age can already swim in the deep end, you’re the same age so that’s where you should be also”
Instead we support them first, then let them swim by themselves in the shallow end where they can still touch the ground, then we move them deeper and deeper as they become more able and confident.
That is how progression should be handled.
Still on the list then. Darn, was really close to having one less reason to quit.
Curious.
How many apologies have you given out?
Edit: And follow up. Do you still feel its physically impossible to level a toon to 120 and gear him up over time for higher end content?
If they ask for one, they get one. Simple.
Not physically impossible until an iLevel barrier named/dubbed “The Community Wall” has been reached.
When this thread was made, I was celebrating that the wall shrunk.
Do you know how many sub 400 ilvl people I will recruit for M+/Mythic? Zero.
Gear is the tool that helps enable people to do the tougher content - skill/io/achievements is the experience that shows you can handle your class.
If you’re worrying about complaining - then I hate to break it to you, but life is gonna suck for you. People in every aspect of life complain - you shouldn’t let it get to you.
I’ll take muting someone any day of the week so that I can get some well geared people to have fun with.
I don’t worry about it - I’m grateful that people have access to it so that my guild can keep pushing content and having fun running M+'s as filler throughout the week.
There’s no high ground - just being thankful.
So sounds like the m+/mythic raiding pool isn’t going up. People need both gear and experience, and just adding better gear doesn’t make the person good enough.
Sure seems like the change is pointless! The gear doesn’t let them get the experience. The experience, though, will get them the gear.
Correct - they need both. Just adding gear doesn’t make the person good enough - but adding the gear further enables them to be better.
That’s why the military doesn’t arm it’s new soldiers with junky weapons. They get good quality gear - because they’re better off as a whole to fight the bad guys that way.
The issues with premade group finder have unfortunately been in the game since it’s conception. Unfortunately a lot of players feel the need to have evidence that a player who is to join their group will provide a benefit, not a hinderance to their group.
To that end they need to use some sort of metric, in earlier stages in WoW this was calling players to an accessible location and viewing their gear (no transmog) to see how well geared they were, in WotLK this changed to “gear score” when item levels on gear became accessible and people were able to determine a number from it.
Continue on to Legion and BfA, there is no large distinction between a Heroic raider and a solo world quester in terms of gear, so players turned to another method. In this instance it is raider io, where they determine a number for the content you have completed based on an algorithm.
It removes ilvl out of the equation and now bases your “io” solely on what you have proven yourself able to complete.
Now I’m not saying I agree with it, and personally I mostly just play in guild groups or join as opposed to creating groups, so I don’t veto people using IO myself. But we have to accept that people will always feel the need to have a method to access a players capability, raider io is simply the latest one to be used.
So be fair, they aren’t targeting you, nor any other player realistically. They are targeting Blizzard.
And yes, I can understand why people would grieve at such situations, and no, I don’t believe it’s exclusively the Elitists.
You see, the issue is that a lot of these people, most likely normal and heroic raiders, have been putting a lot of effort into content that they deem challenging, either for themselves, or for their group/community.
They have been earning themselves a level of reward for that content only for it to be made almost irrelevant.
Great, you have progressed up to Heroic Jaina! A shame killing her is worth the same as completing a shell game.
When you put yourself in their shoes you can understand why players who worked for something would be disillusioned at it then being handed out for relatively no work.
It’s not against the players the outrage, it’s against the system and the demeaning of effort that people have put in.
My personal opinion is not to engage in those types of discussions or read those comments if they are potentially harmful. I know that’s not a great solution and it doesn’t fix the issue, but unfortunately the forums are full of differing opinions, and a lot of those can be extreme and unforgiving to those on the opposite side of the fence, and it’s not something that’s looking to change any time soon without heavy moderation.
I would try to find enjoyment within your group of people within WoW, whether it’s a guild or people you just play with and focus on that. If your guild isn’t accepting either, then perhaps it’s time to move, there are a lot of friendly guilds out there who are more interested in who you are than what DPS you can do. Aim to surround yourself with a culture you enjoy spending time in, disregard the haters.
Good point. They take new people off the street and hand them the best gear.
Oh wait. They don’t.
The people go through many hours/days/weeks/months of training. Getting experience. Then they get the gear.
I am not sure that analogy is really one that supports your case ![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
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DPS doesn’t matter if you’re dead. The issue is players are scared to fail. It’s a sin to wipe. It goes both ways – people make mistakes and will eventually learn, but there is no reason for players to stay patient with others. Rather than carry someone with no experience, they instead opt to avoid that type of player outright.
A player’s gear doesn’t need to get better, a player’s actual skill needs to improve or be recognized. Blizzard made gear meaningless, so players took it upon themselves to weed out inexperienced players when it comes to more challenging content. When community doesn’t matter, everyone becomes selfish.
Players asking for 1000 IOs for a +5 are stupid. But those asking for a 1000 IO for a +10 are fine. Mythic+ isn’t casual after a point.
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