Paladin Feedback [30 Oct Datamined Changes]

In Development WoW: Forever Beta Discussion
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Following up on my last thread here, Paladin Talent Feedback

The Prot and Ret changes feel good!

Shieldsworn is actually exciting for Prot! Moving Templar’s Bulwark higher is a nice Defensive option for the other specs to take if they want it! Imp Seal of Fury removal is nice! Prot looks a whole lot more interesting - again, not a tank nerd in terms of CTC or TPS, but the fantasy and rotation for Prot looks a great deal better.

On other fronts, The three talents I specifically outlined in Ret/Holy were actually changed and shockadin fits so neatly now as a true alternative to Seal Twisting!

The Holy Tree as a whole, however, is a bit strange. We’re forced to put one point in a damage talent to be able to reach Holy Power - none of them feel particularly good to take. Another pass feels like its needed here.

Changes I’d like to see;

[Reverence] - one rank added for 3/3 and 30% regen which feels much fairer. Our regen being completely gimped until deep into 60 because of lack of crit on gear is awful, and this offsets that.

[Divine Precision] Adjusted - 3 ranks at 4% each to reach 12%

With the above two, the goal is about talent point count while avoiding talent ‘waste’ it allows Holy to reach Holy Power without having to take DPS talents. It gives DPS paladins a choice to make based on gearing - if their gear has too much hit they can drop a point for some mana cost reduction or extra regen. It’s a much more interesting choice to make overall for all specs involved without feeling like we need to waste a talent point. Hpals who want to hybrid things up don’t really lose anything from these changes.

[Oath of Light] to be swapped with [Consecrated Ground] ('CG]'moving forward) - making it less awkward for DPS paladins because CG is a very cool talent - any cool DPS talents in Holy being below Row 4 genuinely feel bad for any DPS paladin, particularly when a spell fits into the other roles like Consecrate. ’

I could understand if CG was something different aimed at making Exo do more things for Hpal focused hybrids - but Consecrate is used by Prot and Ret more frequently. I can see cool setups with Light’s Vigil in some dungeon pulls, but moving CG higher means all specs can benefit from CG if they want to without sacrificing Row 6 in Prot or Ret.

If our goal is to feel roughly 1% more effective within our gameplay loops based on how we want to play, then changes to Holy are necessary because having to put a dead talent somewhere JUST to reach rows 6 and 7 feels bad if thats how we weight talent points.

Overall I’m genuinely happy with how things are progressing - like I’ve pointed out above, Holy’s talent placements could REALLY use another pass, but I’m a lot more excited to be a Paladin main forever now than I was before these changes.

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HPal looks extremely, overly good for talents for healing HOWEVER Light’s Vigil 730 mana needs to come DOWN. Significantly.

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Agree - I have no issues with how it plays at its core, just the talent placements are extremely awkward, and a regen buff to compensate for all the changes in Forever would go a long way.

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Why is there simply NOT enough points to be able to actually spec into Holy 21 points (to get holy shock) without needing to take a non-throughput talent? The same goes for 31 points…it is actually impossible to be a healer as a paladin purely. Why was 5% int moved to prot? Why make our cast pushback the first talent AND 5 points, that is insane? Why is Conviction melee crit only not just crit? There is nowhere for me to spend the last 10 talents to increase my healing ability at all.

Other healers have options, multiple of them, to be better healers. Paladins have one spec, period, to be mid level healers with Holy Shock being the weakest single trait as a healing throughput ability of any of them.

Prot paladin as the same issue, there is a single talent setup, with it massively lacking the ability to actually tank effectively since Holy Shield is just a worse version of Shield Block in every manner. I am forced to take mana talents, which is fine, but it makes me have to go into Holy, and I also have to dive into Prot for lower judgement cooldown since my taunt is tied to a DPS ability that is required to hold threat.

Why, as a Ret paladin am I required to take an efficiency or defensive ability as my first 5 points…not a damage increasing one? WHY am I required to take Repentance…it does literally nothing in a raid. I guess that is fine since Unsealed Wrath is one of the worst designed talents of all time in the game. But, similar to Holy, I have nowhere to spend my talent points to get to it anyways. All my choices do not increase my damage. What other spec (maybe Sub?) has this problem? May as well spec down to Holy Shock itself, actually 31/0/20 may be a better spec overall than a full Ret spec period. Holy actually has 10 talents that are damage oriented vs 11 that are healing oriented. While ret has a whole 10 talents that are DPS oriented. Again, what other spec (or even class) has this kind of limitation when it comes to specs?

Why does druid get TWO 10% int talents?

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They moved Int over to the Prot tree which at first I was like wtf? Then I realized it’s a good move as we want Guardian’s Favor anyways and moving other Holy talents up closer or in tier 1 makes that diversion into Prot less painful.

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Take another pass. Conviction now reads “all spells and attacks”

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Why does Holy Shock deal and heal less than Penance, and cost more, but with 2 second shorter cooldown?

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They needed something!! Not having a 31 point damage talent felt horrible. I was begging for something to press and I hope it’s enough. I wanted Avenger Shield but hopefully this new talent hits hard and gets snap threat and has a cool sound/animation.

True and also Holy shield earlier is nice.

I’m a tank nerd, it’s getting there. They buffed redoubt back so now it’s 30% block and looks like getting Uncrushable might be a thing now. Moving Divine intellect into the Prot tree could also be huge for other builds.

However I still believe Prot Pal’s identity should be a spell power int tank. We can’t get Champion of the light so having divine intellect while nice can’t get spell power with our Int.

At least the Devs are moving in a much better direction because Prot Pal wasn’t playable before the changes. Being able to maintain Iron Creed damage reduction and passive buff to Righteous fury was good with the higher block chance.

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Because paladins aren’t priests…

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haha yeah and its almost like holy shock is instant and isnt channeled… crazy

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Give is the HotR CLANG sound plz

Redoubt should not be counted when calculating for uncrushable

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Yea hope so, actually just realized too you can block spells now. Actually huge. Does this mean you can fight mages and block spells triggering holy shield on them?

Giving Prot Pal the ability to block spells is a niche that is iconic.

Yea guess that’s true. I’ll take the 30% though for trash then.

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I was excited to finally be able to play a Spell power Ret/holyShock paly…! But now why even bother making holy shock deal damage if you gotta spend 21 points just to get the skill and not even be able to get nodes that scales its damage portion … i mean seal twisting dosent appeal to most players… give us a alternative! plz

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I’m not sure if this is a troll or not?

You can go 21/0/30, get Champion of the Light and still get Holy Shock? CotL is 30 deep and Holy Shock is 20 points Required.

It’s better than the old tree by a wide margin - because the spell hit got moved up a row so we can get it on the way to Shock AND we get instant HoW now with it being folded into CotL

Deep Ret Shockadin is eating EXTREMELY well

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Wait…they stripped spell crit out of holy and put it in the 2nd row of ret? Thats kinda whack since most of the healing in the holy tree works off spell crit… they want Holy Paladin to become flat healers like priests? This change needs to be reverted.

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But most of the talents in holy to our way to holy shock seem not great , like why not give it damage instead of only its healing part

Srry my english aint that great

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It should be lower to make it more on par with the mana/healing of Prayer of Healing but I do wonder how Illumination works with it? That could be why it’s so much more mana.

Can each instance of healing crit and if so how does that effect the mana return?

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The optimal build right now is still 23/28 because 10% holy damage is worth more than 24% more of your int as spell power.

So you don’t get that instant HoW for free. You have to give up dps to get it.

Also they the moved the int talent into prot tree and left str talent in holy tree which is another small nerf for shockadin.

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I Think it’s in a sweet spot right in the middle of Priest and Druid - Prayer of Healing is 1070 mana and Druid Wild Growth 550 mana
P.S. Chain Heal is a lvl 54 Spell only hit 3 targets total for 405 Mana

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I think Light’s Vigil is fine but I can see why people aren’t happy with it; as a capstone talent, it’s very weird.

Your capstone talent should really flesh out the strength of your spec/role and double down on what you’re good at, not try and cover a gap in your toolkit

Light’s Vigil falls under the latter - a CD to cover a gap in the paladin’s healing kit feels bad as a final talent. It SHOULD double down on our tank healing and single target healing in general - hence the frequent calls for Beacon of Light - even if it didnt have 100% uptime, it fits much better than Vigil in the toolkit.

The issue will come when Holy Paladins just don’t take the talent and opt for minor passives in the other trees. Its not like Ret where the tree is designed to take Shock if you don’t like Twisting - there is no other real alternative for Hpal.

I’d rather something more iconic that interacts with Holy Shock personally - Glimmer of Light stands out as something that is quintessially Hpal while also making Holy Shock a lot more powerful.

Every Paladin tree needs reworked