10-Man Versions of Every 20 Man Raid

In Development WoW: Forever Beta Discussion
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Consider 10-Man Versions of Every 20 Man Raid for Smaller Guilds

During the September 17, 2026 Developer Q&A, at approximately 1:24:28, Tim Jones stated:

“Every single tier that we will ever do will have both a 10-player raid and a 20-player raid.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5zzSMSVhRo&t=5068s

I appreciate Blizzard making that commitment. It’s encouraging to see the developers recognize the importance of smaller raid groups.

However, I’d really like Blizzard to consider offering a 10-player version of every raid in WoW Forever. I appreciate the commitment to having both 10- and 20-player raids in every tier, but I hope the developers will consider taking that a step further.

My biggest concern is the long-term sustainability of smaller guilds. Managing a 20- or 40-player roster can be exhausting. Between recruiting, scheduling, attendance, and replacing members, running a raid team can start feeling like a second job.

Many of us have careers, families, children, and other responsibilities. We still want to experience challenging endgame content, but we’d prefer to do it with the smaller communities and friends we’ve played alongside for years.

I understand that supporting multiple raid sizes requires additional development time and careful balancing. Those are legitimate concerns. However, 10-player raids can absolutely offer meaningful challenges when encounters are properly designed and tuned. Nobody is asking for easier content or better rewards.

I’d also love to see more meaningful 5-player endgame progression so dungeons remain relevant beyond the initial gearing process.

I respect players who enjoy larger raids, and I wouldn’t want those experiences taken away. I simply believe smaller guilds deserve the same consideration.

WoW Forever has an opportunity to build on what made Classic great while making improvements that support different types of players.

I hope Blizzard will seriously consider offering 10-player versions of every raid. Smaller guilds are an important part of this community, and we’d like the opportunity to experience all the content together without having to abandon the groups we’ve spent years building.

Preferring 10-man or flex raiding has nothing to do with someone’s willingness to socialize. Smaller guilds are communities too, and wanting to play with an established group of friends shouldn’t be viewed as a negative.

Consistently organizing 20 or more people can be challenging, especially when schedules and availability change from week to week. For some guild leaders, managing a larger roster can eventually feel more like a second job than a hobby.

I respect those who enjoy larger raids, and I understand their importance to WoW. I’m simply asking for more flexibility so smaller communities can enjoy the same content together. Giving players more options doesn’t diminish the experience of those who prefer larger groups.

Not everyone wants to join or run some massive zerg community just to experience content in a game they’re paying to play. At the end of the day, we’re paying customers, and having reasonable options shouldn’t be such a controversial idea.

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I feel like it’d make more sense to just add flex raid sizes but I do agree, 20 player raids already is just a logistics hassle that isn’t fun

10 player raiding was peak imo

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You know when SoD started to die? As soon as they switched away from 10man raids to 20 - participation dropped off a cliff.

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YES PLEASE…

I prefer smaller guilds of tight nit friends. I also dont want to have ANYTHING to do with 20 man raids.. Not in Forever, not even in retail. To heck with that :poop:

I am not even kidding. I am allready NOT planning on running any of the 20 man or higher raids. The 10man raids, yes. 20 or higher, NOPE.. Not happening.

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Yeah, SoD started losing players as soon as they introduced 20+ player raids, and the community was pretty vocal about their frustration with that decision. Organizing that many people is a logistical nightmare. Even in Retail, plenty of players avoid larger raid sizes for that very reason.

I understand the appeal of larger raids, and I’m not suggesting they should be removed. But offering a 10-man version alongside them wouldn’t take anything away from those who enjoy that experience. It would simply give more players the flexibility to enjoy the content without the headache of managing a massive raid group.

Not everyone wants to join or run some massive zerg community just to experience content in a game they’re paying to play. At the end of the day, we’re paying customers, and having reasonable options shouldn’t be such a controversial idea.

Using the argument that larger raids somehow promote being “social” just feels like a lazy justification for limiting player choice. You can have a social experience with 10 people just as easily as you can with 20 or 40. We’re all adults with different schedules, responsibilities, and preferences. If the game doesn’t offer options that fit people’s lives, they’re not going to magically reorganize their lives around it. They’ll simply stop playing.

And honestly, I don’t see how giving players more ways to enjoy the same content is a bad thing.

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Ugh, god. No. Stop.

WoWF is built around and based on Classic. That means no “flexibile raid sizes” or scaling. No difficulties, no nonsensical retail mucking things up.

Raids will be 10, 20, and 40 player sizes. Each one unique and individual. That’s it.

Stop it.

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I respect your opinion, but firmly disagree. Nobody is asking for Retail. Offering a 10-man version doesn’t take anything away from players who enjoy 20- or 40-man raids. Classic’s identity isn’t defined by the logistical headache of organizing massive groups. And “that’s how Classic was” isn’t an argument for why it can’t improve. More options mean more players enjoying the content, without taking away anyone else’s experience.

And whether you are a fan of retail, or not. It pays the bills for all other Blizzard projects.

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SoD started losing people the moment it pushed its last raid tier and also during all the phases where they sat level capped for 5 months.

This was not because 20 man raids. Correlation is not causation.

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Agreed..

There are going to be those who want 20 mans and have the guildies to do it with. But like you mentioned. Not many do. IDK why we cant have 10 man versions of NEW raids. They are going to have to develop them, so why not?

Also, looking at retial as a metric for those who are actively raiding, 12 player raids are the norm. IDK if Blizz can do flex raids for the older ones. But new ones they could.

I know there are going to be some hard core classic players that will puke at the idea of flex raid. And I fully understand. That and they take more time to tune out and the code for flex raiding may or may not be in WoW Forevers code. So for that, I am fine and wold be happy with just flat out 10 mans.

The writing is on the wall though. Retail is in shambles. Just watching Bellulars video on 12.1.5 shipping with broken systems is just sad. They introduced a system called Delves a while back, not I havent played it since I dont play retail. But from what I can tell, its basically a 3 man dungeon system. IF retail cant even get 5 people to run dungeons together. Fat chance most people will ever step into a 20 or 40 man raid. BUT I also do not want them removed. Just want 10 man versions. EVEN if the 10 man version is a couple of items levels lower then 20 man.

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I don’t disagree with you. There were several factors at play, but the shift toward 20+ player raids was certainly one of them. Entire communities had formed around 10-man raiding, only to have that structure disrupted by changes many players never asked for. That shouldn’t be overlooked.

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Except every raid comp and buff setup was balanced around 40 mans and they had to make a ton of changes to the meta to make even 20 mans work. Swithcing to only 10 mans will lead to a design ofclass stacking to get buffs because they have to balance around those buffs or you get a meta where hard stacking buff classes makes content 40% easier or more and then that becomes the only meta and you get class stacking again like 20 warriors in a raid.

They cannot cut 20 mans, if they do they need to remove almost all buffs from the game. And make it super homogenous which makes it like retail which is not the point.

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You’re arguing against replacing 20- and 40-man raids, which nobody is suggesting. We’re asking for additional 10-man options. Yes, balancing smaller raids requires adjustments, but that’s a design challenge, not an impossibility. Class stacking and optimal raid compositions already exist in larger raids, so pretending those problems are exclusive to 10-man content doesn’t hold up. And offering smaller raid sizes doesn’t require removing buffs or homogenizing classes.

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What do you think happened when 20 mans came out in vanilla when 40 was the meta, even worse logistical issues. 20 mans are the target for raid balance, they said 40 mans will be for grouping two 20’s or pugging primarily.

20’s cut into 10 fine so you can just ignore that content if you want.

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That’s actually proving my point. When 20-man raids were introduced alongside 40-man raids, they gave smaller groups another way to experience endgame content. Nobody was forced to abandon 40-man raiding. And telling players to simply ignore content they’re paying for because they prefer smaller groups isn’t a solution. It’s exactly why having more options makes sense.

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Go look at the threads already talking about 10 man raid comps. You don’t take pure dps classes. You take stacks of hyrbids to cover buffs. They balance around having those buffs or every fight becomes a 20 second kill with those buffs cause they can add 30-50% of the raids damage on top for having them.

10 mans are problematic and can’t be the focus or it will kill class diversity and viability.

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You’re treating a potential balancing issue as an unavoidable outcome. Yes, buffs and raid composition matter, but that doesn’t mean 10-man raids can’t be designed around those limitations. Blizzard has already created successful 10-man content without eliminating class diversity. And nobody is asking for 10-man raids to become the sole focus. We’re asking for an additional option. Smaller groups shouldn’t have to be excluded simply because balancing them requires some effort.

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That seems more of the fault of bad class design then raid size.

EDIT: Also Forever classes are not the same as SoD classes.
EDIT #2: Also 10 man raids are generally more casual-ish players that dont focus to hard on min/maxing.

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They already said 10 and 20’s will happen every tier. Now you want more 10 man content at the cost of 20 and 40 man content…

Thats you asking to change the game. You don’t need more raids at 10 man then any other raid size your already getting parody. They have limited design time so you are 100% asking them to cut higher raids for 10 man and thats a terrible idea.

I would argue most play this game for 20 man. All the surveys had 20mans winning in all the content over 40 and 10 and you want to reduce 40 and 20’s for more 10…

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it’s wild to me that people consider a 20 man roster so difficult to fill. like holy hell you people would have been miserable in the vanilla era and I think it really does go to show where a lot of folks are actually coming from. 20 is pretty easy, a couple of tanks and a few healers and you can pretty much fill the rest with whatever. even a small guild should be able to pull that off without a ton of effort.

the fact is those who can only handle a 10 man roster will have raids. designing them in a way to allow half the intended raid size would cause more work and ultimately trivialize the 20 man version, like why even bother with a 20 man version at that point?

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You’re making assumptions about development resources and claiming they’re facts. Asking for 10-man versions of existing raids isn’t the same as asking Blizzard to remove or replace larger raids. Yes, development time is limited, but that doesn’t automatically mean one option must come at the expense of another. And even if 20-man raids are the most popular, that doesn’t invalidate the players who prefer smaller groups. The entire point is giving people choices.

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