The PvB Experience: When Trust Breaks, Players Leave

TLDR: It was never about the game, it was always about the community. The game is just a vessel, which can build community if it’s designed to. There was a chance for me to reunite with the RP-PvP community after several years, but that was recently taken away from me.


The fight between players and devs is perhaps as old and as heated as the war between Horde and Alliance. It’s perfectly reasonable that a concerted understanding should be struck between the two for an optimal PvB (Player vs Blizzard) experience. When this balance is broken, players leave. Who is to blame is not the issue at hand, but should be a point where real communication should occur. When it’s effective, it’s a win-win. When it’s not, everyone loses.

So I want what you want Blizzard: for WoW Forever to be as successful as possible, but it is important for us to understand each other in order to keep not only the integrity of the game (and the Warcraft IP) as we know and love alive, but also the integrity of the communities that have formed inside of it.


I never played the original World of Warcraft from 2004, but I have always loved Warcraft from afar through private servers that return to that time since 2012 well before Nostalrius came alive to inspire what would eventually be Classic WoW.

So my official start was in 2019, on the RP-PvP realm of Grobbulus. When TBC Classic rolled around, Blizzard added purchasable Level 58 boosts and the world of Azeroth was mostly abandoned for Outland. Many still stayed after that, but I didn’t.

For many others, it was the WoW Token and the move to Cata which many consider the breaking point between Classic WoW and Retail since 2011, just repeated in Classic.

When players can’t experience the game they know and love, they don’t have much of a choice - private servers fill in the gap that Blizzard left behind.

So, inevitably, I became fluent in the private server scene. The seven years of my absence exists outside of what Blizzard could provide. Turtle WoW, Project Epoch, Project Ascension. All of these projects gave the world of Azeroth an unfelt love that Blizzard could not give to their own game at that time, and this is the primary reason why private servers became so popular.

(Now, should these private servers have made money off of Blizzard’s IP? Probably not, but that’s a whole other issue.)


The heart of it is still the aforementioned. If we do not have a home, we go somewhere else. The love for Warcraft will always be there, but Blizzard has not always been there for us. And I hate to see it happen again with refusing to give RP-PvP players a Forever home, since that is where I live when it comes to this game.

I can forgive Blizzard for 15 years of transgressions for abandoning the integrity and spirit of their original game, I can forgive them for making the same mistakes for what they did to WoW Classic, I can forgive them for ripping apart these beloved private servers with their C&D letters and lawsuits, and I can forgive the lore whiplash I received with the announcement of the Skyborne instead of Belves and High Elves, but ONLY IF they give the game I love, and the community I love, the attention and respect we all deserve.

I don’t care if they took the best of Turtle, Epoch, or Ascension (which by my eyes they did to some degree) to build WoW Forever, as long as they restore the game that we have all come to know and love.

I am only here because I believe WoW Forever is going in the right direction, by committing to stay on Azeroth, expanding it from there, and focusing on the journey rather than the destination through the philosophy of horizontal progression.

This change is the reason I’m coming back, but not having RP-PvP as a ruleset is weighing heavy on me on whether I have given Blizzard too much grace far too soon, since they are choosing to break our trust yet again. Many of us cannot and will not support that. The amount of refunds that I have heard about should be a sign that this choice matters.


I think for whatever it’s worth, even if symbolic in scale, long-term loyalty may be worth more than the savings that come with a community’s exodus and fragmentation. The most successful games are the ones where love is simply baked into it - and it comes from both devs and players. So refusing a whole community’s dedication and love for the game is just bad business. The magic is there. Capture it.

I want WoW Forever to be my Forever home, and we are not looking to experience another “you think you do, but you don’t.” At the very least, retest your assumptions, communicate with us, and let’s bring this whole thing to the finish line together, Forever.

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Appreciate the post Khal. It’s very frustrating to see the goodwill Aggrend had at the end of Blizzcon being burned by the same strategy as “you think you do but you don’t” and “we can pull the ripcord.” They know that there’s interest here, so I feel incredibly frustrated that they think it was just a once in a life time “lightning in a bottle” situation.

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It really does feel like “you think you do, but you don’t” all over again.

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Very much in agreement with the other replies here. It really, really does sound like “you think you do, but you don’t.”

I’ve been stewing for the last couple of days about the vitriolic state of these forums and their posters. I think it’s a big issue. Largely, it’s a community culture problem, but it is massively exacerbated by the lack of Blizzard’s listening to their own community (which is FURTHER exacerbated when they DO listen to streamers instead).

There is something to be said for the fact that our devs (and I really do appreciate all the work and love you all have done/shown, Aggrend and the team!) are going to be hard-pressed to listen to us when we’re constantly bemoaning things like it’s the end of the world. And I don’t blame them for that, I wouldn’t listen to that either. But, it’s never going to get better if they don’t work with us.

If any of the Forever team reads this, know that you are appreciated for what you’re doing for us. But, please, trust us!

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It would be helpful if they hired a Loremaster to oversee some of this. Not every streamer speaks for us, and some of them hold a reputation that is the antithesis of what our community stands for. An ambassador or subject matter expert on these things DESERVES to be hired.

It is a choice to be tone deaf when there are people in the know that you can rely on to give you the real scoop. Unfortunately, it probably looks like a bunch of barking ants until money is on the line.

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There’s a few decisions they’ve made so far that feel like that.

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All that’s really happening here is you got used to having something and now you don’t have it, but instead of looking at the situation objectively and creatively you’re acting like it is destroying your entire experience, when in reality all of that is happening between your ears.

What is RP-PvP? What was ever actually different about those servers from a RULESET perspective? Basically one thing; moderation. People would even argue that Blizzard doesn’t even really have the moderation team anymore to enforce that side of things… so really it’s more of an ancient thing from the old WoW days that hasn’t existed for over a decade.

What that ruleset actually does, is make a SUGGESTION that like-minded players who want themselves to try and play the game under a certain pretense, group together and do so… that’s about it. You don’t need a fancy ruleset because there aren’t any fancy rules. You get more RP tools from player-created addons than anything the server type is actually providing to you. You can RP whenever and however you want. I do it all of time in-game, mostly ironically when I think it’s funny to defend the honor of the earth mother from some undead whose putting his dirty feet in the Thunder Bluff water or something but still. Do what you want, coordinate with who you want.

In my opinion the combination of a simple RP addon and the familiar faces system is probably going to end up creating some of the best RP-PvP and RP communities that have ever existed.

Also, moonglade or w/e Goldshire Inn was degenerate anyways. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves lol.

nice post, i really thought it was going to address real issues like class problems (shaman, etc),

or how ridiculous and disastrous the racial changes are going to affect the game..

but no, you want a furry server.

heres the deal. 2 points why its a bad idea in todays gaming.

  1. it splits what little population we have, and for an mmo AND pvp game, you need population. stop not understanding that elephant. you know damn well it exists.
  2. Furries and the like are not all good people (just like any group), and RP servers allow the worst of the worst of humanity to hide in RP servers under the guise of ‘roleplaying’. Gamers are damn tired of this, we arent going to hide them any longer.

I unfortunately haven’t seen any reason to have faith in Blizzard’s Familiar Faces system to think it will work.

blink

I mean… that’s certainly a take… not sure where that all came from though

if you been gaming long enough, you seen what lurks in RP servers on many MMOs, WoW had alot of it (and most likely still does on retail, etc). Moreso, its about time to think about the kids and not the adults for once.

I don’t know what happened on Grobbulus, however I noticed all of you love it and want to re-create it. It sounds like managing a mega shard is hard, and that there isn’t enough rp-pvp interest, other then the 100 threads or so on here for it.

I guess make sure rp-pve is overloaded and looks like it requires a pvp version, maybe they’ll toss it in then. They stated that the rp-pvp tried to be recreated since then, and it turned into a nonsense of a show, people not following the ruleset.

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Dude, what are you talking about?

child predators.

they are and have always been a problem in MMOs, and they tend to hide in RP servers in particular. it’s why the MMORPG genre on the whole have stopped making the servers. You guys dont police them (in fact you protect them), and its just a nightmare for companies to deal with. not to mention the kids and the parents.

If all I need to do is flag myself for PvP on an RP server. Fine. But it doesn’t fix the whole problem. I know a lot of us are going to PvP servers alternatively. Not necessarily an ideal situation if you want the RP community to stay intact.

Plus, if moderation was the real problem for Blizzard, then they should have just led with that in their podcast instead of the response they gave us.

Finally, that last comment… dawg, what are we doing? Their degeneracy is not my problem. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

You’re not vouching for your own character by pointing out the flaw of these “roleplayers” by dunking on a ruleset you’ve never even been a part of. You are only showing us how toxic you are choosing to be by writing us all off.

If you got gripes with Blizzard for the normal PvE and PvP rulesets, I would rather hear your story on that. Because that’s not MY experience. But I agree that would have been valuable to talk about here.

Crusader Strike, the example provided, was doomed from the start. Streamers were trying to coordinate which server to go to, but there weren’t any names available for the servers yet. There were 2 PvP servers and 1 RP-PvP servers. The streamers had heard about Grobb and realized they could just go RP-PvP without any risk of the community being split up so they and their thousands of followers rolled on Crusader Strike.

After a large outcry from the RP-PvP community, saying the streamers were going to ruin the server integrity, Blizzard added Chaos Bolt after the fact. Many players went to Chaos Bolt, some decided to stay on Crusader Strike, which immediately split the community. Blizzard eventually prevented people from making new characters on Chaos Bolt and offered free transfers to Crusader Strike, a realm which was already RP-PvP in name only because of the streamers and their followers dominating the server and Blizzard performing 0 moderation. Crusader Strike had become the defact PvP mega server and the 1 chance for an RP-PvP server was taken out back and shot by Blizzard.

This all ignores the fact that SoD was seasonal and experimental, something which already turns away a lot of RP players to begin with. Them using SoD as the main part of their argument for not having RP-PvP is incredibly disingenuous and ignores Blizzards own significant part in killing RP-PvP in SoD.

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don’t pretend that a normal PvP server is at all conducive to RP :expressionless_face: it’s not

It’s working alright, the problem is that it’s being interfered with by other layering problems.

IDK we did a bunch of fun events in Kor’Kron Elite on beta and it’s not RP ruleset (they’re an RP-PvP EU guild). Seemed pretty conducive to me, at least until we started running into layering problems. That part of the system needs work but it’s also going to take time for you to “build” your community out with it. Play til 60 and mess with it for awhile before we can truly criticize it.

Is it though? I never noticed the familiar faces outside of the earliest stages of the game and the other layering problems are directly tied to why/how Familiar Faces is unlikely to work. They can’t get the basics of layering working, how are they going to have a complex system like familiar faces work?

IDK we did a bunch of fun events in Kor’Kron Elite on beta and it’s not RP ruleset (they’re an RP-PvP EU guild). Seemed pretty conducive to me, at least until we started running into layering problems. That part of the system needs work but it’s also going to take time for you to “build” your community out with it. Play til 60 and mess with it for awhile before we can truly criticize it.

We have a fraction of the release population. We all saw what happened to RP-PvP on Nightslayer.

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IDK but I see those blue names around quite a bit, they show up in my Durotar dueling area a lot now. Unfortunately I have the memory of a hamster now so I usually get these people all mixed up but at least the system remembers some details for me so I can be like “oh yeah we did WC at 20”.