PSA: stop chasing numbers and start talking about class feel!

TL;DR: NUMBERS ARE GOING TO CHANGE THROUGHOUT THE BETA. DAMAGE, HEALING, AND BALANCE MATTER, BUT THEY ARE ONLY PART OF THE PICTURE. WE NEED TO SPEND MORE TIME DISCUSSING HOW OUR CLASSES FEEL TO PLAY!

With the WoW: Forever beta well underway, I think we need to have a conversation about the kind of feedback we’re giving Blizzard.

Lately, a lot of class discussions seem to devolve into damage numbers, DPS meters, percentage buffs, percentage nerfs, and comparisons between classes. More often than not, I see the same conversations in chat, on the forums, and across the wider internet:

My (insert class or spell) does X damage.

This talent needs an X% buff or nerf.

My DPS is lower than Y’s.

This class topped the damage meters in my Wetlands run…

Blizzard said XYZ…

These things can be useful information, but THEY ARE NOT THE ENTIRE PICTURE. They should not dominate every single conversation, all of the time.

We’re in a beta. The numbers are going to change.

Damage coefficients, weapon damage, talent percentages, and ability tuning can ALL be adjusted. Blizzard can change those things relatively quickly compared to redesigning a talent or reworking the way a class plays.

CLASS FEEL IS A DIFFERENT STORY.

Instead of immediately arguing about how much damage an ability does or how its numbers look, we need to first ask: WHAT IS THIS ABILITY OR TALENT SUPPOSED TO ACCOMPLISH?

  • Does this ability give my class a new tool?

  • Does it create interesting decisions?

  • Does it create opportunities for counterplay?

  • Does it seem like it will work in PvP, PvE, or both?

  • How does it feel in a raid, battleground, or the open world?

  • How does it feel while questing? Am I actually getting use out of it?

  • Is this ability satisfying to use? Why or why not?

  • Does it interact meaningfully with the rest of my class’s abilities?

  • Does it fit the class fantasy I’d like to see?

  • Does it make my class more interesting to play? More interesting to fight against?

  • Is it fun? If so, why? If not, why not?

These are the kinds of questions we should be asking.

If a talent feels pointless but its damage is competitive, increasing its damage might only mask the underlying problem. Likewise, if an ability feels fantastic to use but deals too much damage, that might simply be a tuning problem.

WE NEED TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN A NUMBERS PROBLEM AND A DESIGN PROBLEM.

Numbers do matter. Balance does matter. Nobody is suggesting we ignore damage, healing, threat, or other measurable outcomes. Those metrics can help identify issues and support our feedback.

But numbers alone rarely explain why something FEELS wrong.

Instead of only reporting that your ability does too little damage, explain what happens when you use it. Instead of only saying your talent is weak, explain why it doesn’t feel worth taking. Instead of only comparing your DPS to other classes, talk about the experience of playing your class and the situations in which its toolkit feels rewarding, frustrating, janky, clunky, or incomplete.

Give Blizzard something they can actually use to understand the problem.

BLIZZARD NEEDS CONTEXT. THEY ALREADY HAVE THE NUMBERS.

The distinction matters because numbers can be tuned, but class design shapes the experience of PLAYING THE GAME.

If we spend the rest of this beta arguing over percentages while overlooking fundamental problems with how our classes actually feel to play, we risk reaching the end of beta with reasonably balanced numbers but gameplay and classes that are still underwhelming and unsatisfying.

Please start asking questions before jumping straight to the damage meter and demanding nerfs or buffs.

We don’t need to agree on every answer. Disagreement is useful! Different players approach the same class differently, and that’s precisely why we need to discuss our experiences.

Let’s make those discussions as productive as possible while we still have the opportunity to influence the game. Our time in beta is limited.

19 Likes

Well said.

The Warlock class may be “balanced” on paper. But it’s boring and feels bad.

Tab

Dot

Dot

Dot

Dot

Tab

Dot

Dot

Dot

Dot

Life Tap

Life Tap

Tab

Dot

Dot

Dot

Dot

Tab - dots worn off?

Dot

Dot

Tab - dots worn off?

Dot

Dot

Tab - dots worn off?

Wand

Wand

Tab

Dot

Wand

Wand

Tab

Wand

Wand

This is every pull. Dots don’t even last long enough to kill 1 mob and they require babysitting and constant refresh. It’s tedious and annoying.

Oh, and now our summons don’t even work in dungeons. So we bring mediocre damage to dungeons AND now we can’t replace a PUG if they flake out on the run.

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Thank you, Muruka! This is exactly the type of feedback I’m trying to get us to consider giving!

You’re not just saying Warlock damage is too low or too high, or asking for a percentage buff. You’re actually describing the gameplay loop and explaining WHY it FEELS tedious.

The summoning issue is another great example of a game design question, because class value is not limited to damage meters. Class utility affects how groups function, and losing that utility can have consequences beyond the class itself.

I really hope Blizzard sees feedback like this, because it gives them something to actually investigate rather than just another percentage change request.

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The AI response :rofl::joy:

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Hows this for an AI response…

Do you disagree with the actual argument? If so let’s discuss your disagreements.

I mean, sounds like warlock probably isn’t the class for you.

or maybe, I dunno, not go affliction?

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I’m curious. Does everything you come across that is written in an intelligent, well-structured and thoughtful manner appeal to you as written by AI?

If so, it’s possibly because the AI you’re familiar with using was created by humans who were the ones that wrote in that manner.

And those humans do still exist.

3 Likes

The response was obvious AI and it’s the first one I’ve even said anything about. Do not claim to know how I see things just because I laughed at the obvious.

4 Likes

Numbers can change how a class feels.

Chain lighting in my opinion is a defining spell for elemental shamans. It is so satisfying to cast and use. But it’s been nerfed to oblivion.

There is no reason to cast it outside of AoE and even then it’s not that great.

In classic it gave us something awesome to cast when we got a clear casting proc. Which is cool. You hear that proc and now I get to cast this hard hitting spell. That also has an awesome animation and sound while being too mana intensive to cast off of CD.

And looking at the changes it seems like Chain Lighting was nerfed into the ground (also taken off of MSW for enhance) because they decided to giga buff fire nova.

Fire Nova the far clunkier spell to use basically lost no spell power and now gets +35% damage in the tree. They made fire nova shamans best damaging spell for some reason.

By just moving numbers around, nerfing fire nova and moving the damage to Chain Lighting you can make the gameplay more interesting. It will give us something awesome to cast when we get that clear casting proc, even giving us some decisions to make (do I cast CL now or LB with my proc?).

You also give enhance a reason to cast it too. You could even put it back on MSW

Numbers can dramatically change how you play a class

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I’ve played multiple classes. Most of them have engaging playstyles without endlessly tedious loops of excessive clicking per mob.

“Don’t play affliction” isn’t a fix, it’s an admission the spec has a problem. Affliction is the DoT spec. If the core identity of a spec is tedious to play, that’s worth fixing, not avoiding.

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Yes obviously, but you seem to be complaining about having to cast and manage dots as affliction.

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I’m not going to claim to know how often you make your observations. I am asking simply, agree or disagree with the actual points being made here and discuss them, or move along. It’s very simple. We don’t need to derail this thread from the topic.

1 Like

Yes, I disagree. It is the DoT spec. You put up DoT and rotate the abilities to utilize how the playstyle works. It is the core mechanic of the spec. You DoT, and keep them going to take down the enemy.

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I agree with this. Elemental Shaman is my go-to character and what I would be playing if it didn’t have so many issues with the entire class. Including removing our ability to dual wield in the Enhancement tree (it was so fun when I wanted to just get toe to toe with a mob), nerfing the dungeon xp so Resto sucks.

But I fully agree with your assessment on chain lightning and the other spells surrounding it on the elemental spec.

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That’s fine. The response wasn’t to you, it was to Muruka who made the claim at me. Not you. I already responded with my disagreement on the topic.

The thread is about gaming experience vs. raw data and damage output analysis.

This isn’t a thread about AI. And none of your responses at me were related to the topic of discussion.

Your attempt to antagonize the OP by accusing his post of being AI was what I responded to. And you are continuing to do so off topic.

Applying and maintaining dots is the core mechanic of a dot spec. I don’t really think Muruka is arguing otherwise.

The question is: does the current implementation offer a gameplay loop that is enjoyable?

There’s a difference between managing dots across multiple mobs as an engaging part of your core rotation and constantly refreshing dots on mobs that die before those dots have had any chance to tick. If the case is the latter which it is usually, you’re mostly wanding.

Intended gameplay loop is one thing. Actual playable experience is another. Does the current implementation deliver the experience the design is intending to provide?

1 Like

I responded to you 1 time, not multiple. I am allowed to laugh about what I want freedom of speech is pretty awesome.

So are we talking about level 30, or level 60? Mobs are going to have a lot more HP at higher level.

I’m used to Qtxfoxgurlyo posts being much longer than this, and it’s a bit awkward trying to figure out what I’m going to do with all this extra time on my hands after reading such a compact distillation of sentiment, but here’s a shot at engaging with the content…

Primarily I agree with your TL;DR, that really it’s pointless to even worry too much about output numbers when the beta is likely still very different from the final product that we’re going to end up with at official launch.

Regarding class “feel”, I do wish people would pay more attention to those aspects, and highlight them more in their critique of the current design. This can come down even just to something as small as sound effects or ability animations, and reminds me of someone in another thread talking about how they no longer play retail because the thunderclap ability has no actual thunder :high_voltage: visual effect anymore. Small stuff like that actually adds up a lot to how it ‘feels’ to play a given class. I hope designers take it to heart that whether a rotation or playstyle is enjoyable comes down to much more than how large the numbers are.

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