WoW Forever Won’t Stay Forever If Gear Keeps Scaling

Horizontal progression needs an actual power ceiling

I really hope somebody from Blizzard reads this, because I’m currently worried about how horizontal progression will be implemented in WoW Forever.

I’m very excited for the game, but I’m concerned that “horizontal progression” could end up meaning the usual WoW gear progression with smaller increases between raids.

If every new raid gives slightly stronger gear than the previous raid, the result will eventually be the same. It might take longer, but older content will still become trivial and older gear will still become obsolete.

That creates several problems.

  1. Players who return after a long break will be far behind everyone else.

  2. New players may have to work through several abandoned raid tiers before they can join current content.

  3. Players with older gear will get destroyed in battlegrounds by people who completed the latest raids or PvP seasons.

  4. Earlier raids will eventually become something people skip, carry, or solo.

  5. Classes that scale extremely well with gear will become increasingly difficult to balance.

Season of Discovery is an obvious example of excessive scaling, but this also happened in regular Vanilla. By Naxxramas, geared characters could trivialize large parts of the level 60 world. Warriors became ridiculously powerful because of how well they scaled with gear.

Keeping the level cap at 60 will not prevent that from happening again. If item levels and character power continue increasing, Forever will eventually become a normal expansion progression system trapped at level 60.

I think Forever should have a limited number of permanent power bands.

  1. Tier 1 would be the entry level raid power band.

  2. Tier 2 would provide a meaningful increase for established characters.

  3. Tier 3 would establish the permanent maximum item level and stat budget.

  4. Future raids would be designed within those existing power bands.

New raids could still have desirable equipment without increasing the overall power ceiling. One raid might have excellent armor and stamina gear. Another might have agility, avoidance, threat, resistance, unusual set bonuses, or weapons with specialized effects.

A tank could collect different sets for physical damage, magical damage, avoidance, threat, resistance, or solo content. A damage dealer could have different sets for particular enemies, weapon builds, or talent combinations. The player would gain more options without eventually becoming powerful enough to make the rest of Azeroth irrelevant.

Future updates could also release more than one kind of raid. One could be an accessible Tier 1 raid for newer and returning players. Another could be a harder Tier 2 or Tier 3 raid for established groups. Both could provide useful gear while serving different audiences.

The test I would use is simple.

  1. Could somebody wearing Barrow Deeps or Hyjal gear return two years later and participate in current content without completing every raid released during their absence?
  2. Would players two years from now still need a real group to complete Barrow Deeps?
  3. Could somebody in launch raid gear enter a battleground and still contribute?
  4. If the answer eventually becomes no, then the progression system is still vertical.

Other online games have already faced this same problem and found ways to preserve older content while maintaining strong player retention. Other MMOs have shown that players do not need endless numerical gear increases to remain interested. New content, different builds, useful sidegrades, cosmetics, achievements, collections, and new challenges can all give people reasons to keep playing.

My main question for the developers is this:

Will WoW Forever eventually establish a permanent maximum item level and player power ceiling, or will every new raid continue raising that ceiling?

Small increases would delay the problem. A permanent ceiling would actually solve it.

64 Likes

Yeah this is the biggest one for me. I really hope power creep is not added through gear like this. It won’t be noticeable now but a couple tiers down the road it will become such a massive barrier to entry people just won’t play.

16 Likes

Absolutely. I’m also concerned because in Greenfield’s own words he said:

“World of Warcraft is a vertical progression game, and that’s part of the power fantasy, and we’re never really going to take that away. But I think having a little bit more nominal power gains per step-up will help.”

And although I agree with him on many things, this is 100% an awful take to hear from one of the most important people currently on this project.

Small steps up is NOT a good thing, it will simply make the illusion of horizontal progression last a little bit longer.

23 Likes

It kills itemization too. Like in eso I can run different content to get pieces I want to mix and match to make my character how I want. If im locked into one specific content for bis then whats the point of it being horizontal?

10 Likes

Blizzard sounds like they want to lean into horizontal progression, but are scared no one will engage in the new content if the rewards aren’t better than what’s currently available. Which, maybe they should lean into pieces & sets that don’t have higher numbers, but more varied minor tweaks to abilities, spells, and talents.

Idk, there’s so much more to give as rewards than bigger numbers.

23 Likes

Yeah if they gave different attribute combinations or had fun equip effects. Maybe even more 3 pc or 4 pc sets. Let players mix and match to make something unique to them and cool. That and lean into cosmetics, titles, mounts etc. ANYTHING but more vertical slop. Its why I quit retail.

20 Likes

I 100% love the idea of creative pieces & sets that don’t have higher numbers. There’s so many directions they could go with this game. I’m genuinely convinced this game will die a slow painful death if they keep vertical progression.

10 Likes

Problem is solved with GDKP. Now, good luck with the gap.

3 Likes

They are already addressing this via several factors:

Different sets will be good for different classes and drop from all over the place.
They said that they will add items to every single raid that are similar to the desirability of Gruuls spine trinket which made people farm that raid all through BC despite the fact that higher ilvl items dropped from newer raids. GDKP wasnt a massive thing in og BC or vanilla. Yet all the raids in both those instances of the game were run and farmed throughout the entire lifetime of those games.

Also new pvp gear will be added as its the only thing that is going to be seasonal in Forever.

People just need to train themselves out of the constant dopamine hits of the retail style of the gear treadmill.

3 Likes

they should advertise a new raid to fomoers. then on day 1 when they enter it should just teleport you back to the starting zone at level 1
then it says the journey is the destination and the raid members is the friends youll meet along the way

5 Likes

It works in Guild Wars 2

14 Likes

Horizontal progression won’t work for WoW. It barely works for runescape and thats due to the weakness system (stab/slash/crush) etc. WoW doesn’t have a combat system that supports horizontal gearing/scaling and content.

I’m excited to see how it’ll play out in the long run, maybe blizzard can get creative and make something happen, it just doesn’t seem possible. They’ve shot themselves in the foot listening to streamers and the handful of boomers who think vanilla is peak wow.

3 Likes

100% this. No I-level increases. Just give me shiny new toys to play with.

12 Likes

They honestly DONT need to increase PvE or PvP ilvls beyond a certain point. If they create vertical scaling in this game, there’s literally no point to calling project “horizontal” progression. Frankly, they have one chance at making this the best version of WoW, and I really hope they don’t blow it by creating new item sets that just scale-up indefinitely.

Josh Greenfield said the increase will be “small steps up”, as if that wouldn’t still be a HUGE PROBLEM. I’m not even being dramatic, if we are going to indefinitely scale-up, no matter how small, it will eventually become a MASSIVE problem.

Here’s how to keep ilvls capped in PvE:

Like OP said just make different tiers of raids gradually over time. Each raid release might have a couple raids that are of different tiers (difficulty tiers). Like, one raid is tier 1, one raid is tier 2, with unique challenges and mechanics that will benefit from very specific gear. But… the tiers will cap at like… maybe tier 3 or 4. You can just keep creating super creative fun gear sets that don’t actually scale beyond a certain ilvl and stat load.

Here’s how for PvP:

Frankly, PvP ilvl’s shouldn’t increase at all besides maybe based on rank, just create new PvP gear “skin tokens” or think of another creative way to make new PvP gear, like a new season might have a crit set for rogue, versus one that’s a haste set. Either way, they need to stop vertical progression at some point.

You cannot just keep scaling things up in a perma 60 world.

Blizzard you have one chance to make this right. PLEASE Don’t do vertical scaling beyond year 1 of the game. Maybe just scale up based on raid difficulty TEMPORARILY within the first year of the game, then just do raid “difficulty” tiers.

11 Likes

But whats the point of raiding if the player doesn’t benefit from it? If theres no better gear, nothing that makes the players character feel more powerful, people just won’t see the point in raiding outside of maybe once to see the content.

4 Likes

Other games already do this successfully, and keep players active and other players coming back for the new content and gear regardless.

The new gear and content is what brings people back. Also you said “better gear”. Better gear in a horizontal progression system is SUBJECTIVE. The gear will enable you to use a different playstyle, or be creative with your build. The stats just won’t keep ballooning, because that would destabilize the permanent level 60 game world.

I mean this respectfully, but if you want vertical gear scaling, play a game that was meant for that, like retail, or classic servers.

11 Likes

The only other game i can think of that does this successfully is OSRS, and thats because the gear does get stronger, but also OSRS has a weakness system. X boss is weak to stab, another boss drops a weapon that has the highest stab bonus, thus giving you a reason to kill one boss to assist with killing another. WoW doesn’t have a combat system that works like this.

I don’t care if its horizontal or veritical, I just want it to work. I don’t see a way where horizontal progression works in WoW, without us eventually doing WOTLK damage numbers at 60…which i’m fine with TBH.e

2 Likes

Horizontal can absolutely work. I’m not sure what your concern is? You want to get infinitely more powerful? That’s the problem. This game is magical, that exact power fantasy of getting infinitely more powerful over time is the problem that doesn’t work, it trivializes 99% of the content that came before it.

Examples of horizontal prog: ESO does it, Guild Wars 2 does it, and it works very well.

There is no universe where vertical progression works in a way that enables a game to remain at a fixed level, those two things are incompatible, and Blizzard needs to realize this.

8 Likes

Fun.

/10char

12 Likes

Okay, but how does it work in WoW is my question. What’s the point of raiding new content if it doesn’t provide anything of value?

With vertical progression, it seems like it trivializes all content in general once the player has gear with no available upgrades.

1 Like