2 questions. Why mm is bottom tier, and one question about bm

Not if you have Aimed without charges…

Simply put, the current design does not support instant or non-CD Aimed.

Also, considering the re-tuning of Aimed without cooldown, the output of the ability alone would be seriously cut down.

It already doesn’t hit hard enough to justify the long cast time and cd so what are we saying?

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If it weren’t on CD, we would get the majority of our damage by standing still and casting Aimed Shot as much as possible. This means, of course, that moving would be a much, much larger penalty. With charges like this we can use our Aimed Shot strategically when we know we don’t have to move, and as long as we are keeping it recharging we are still doing our full damage potential.

In previous expansions they had different ways of dealing with it.

In Classic to WotLK Aimed Shot was on cooldown.

In Cata it only did marginally more damage than Arcane Shot per unit of focus. It was worth using if you were standing perfectly still. Otherwise, filling with Arcane Shot and only using Aimed Shot when you get the instant cast proc was only a small DPS loss.

In MoP you had a glyph to make Aimed Shot castable while moving. In WoD it was castable while moving baseline and there was no Arcane Shot.

In Legion you had the Vulnerable system where your Aimed Shot did very little damage outside of the RNG-based Vulnerable system.

Finally, in BFA we have this charge system.

I guess what you’re asking for is similar to Cata. Problem there is Aimed Shot’s damage didn’t feel like it was worth the cast time in many cases. We could also make it a mobile cast like in WoD and bring back the Sniper Training implementation of that expansion as a mobility compromise. This is actually the route I think they should go down. I would prefer to still have Arcane Shot for situational usage, though.

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Guys ty very much for all this info it’s super useful.
I’ll join the discord tomorrow and I’ll try to improve my rotation. I did yesterday nyalotha norm and I must say I really enjoyed bm (it was just the first half of the raid so the easier one). Having all that mobility sure does make everything smoother, and the whole frenzy stacking + win seconds on the CDs was quite enjoyable.
For some moments It made me remember of wotlk mm, it’s a pity they changed mm so much. I’m going to keep trying as bm and keep off pieces for mm later to try it again once I have better stats there just to compare but bm since a lot smoother.

Again ty for all your answers and guides!

So you’re going to gimp it further, allowing Aimed to be spammed during >80 <20, until you run out of focus.

Good job!

With a charge system, we are not penalised for movement while it is not capped. Without this, the stationary playstyle would be considerably worse!

Please, think about further design implications before you type…

No wonder the dev team screw things up when we have players such as you on the case!

Wotlk’s mm was perfect imo. Stings that made your next chimera get an extra action, aimed instant cast on a CD, kill shot, pet haste buff, and the CD to refresh all attacks (don’t remember the name) was awesome. And having to manage your mana by going viper stance and getting some shots there to recover mana made it really enyojable.
I fell in love with hunters on wotlk pservers haha

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Assuming that talent stays with kill shot on the way but ok

If they take their current design and buff arcane shot while keeping the passive that allows a free arcane shot out of an aimed shot it would encourage more of a flow and at least allow for less down time.

If they keep the charge system Aimed shot needs to be more impactful to justify its long stationary cast time and charge system.

Aimed shot not having a cd was ideal when we had chimera shot and aimed shot was the heavy hitter filler but without chimera shot and arcane shots hitting weak the charge system is odd and an ability that isn’t even that strong but is our strongest move.

So you’re furthering the punishment from movement, placing more dps into an Arcane buffed from Precise Shot. That will certainly go down a treat for the PvPers, who have specific issue with how MM damage is loaded further into stationary playstyle.

The design catered for Aimed having no CD or charges at the time. This current design would not favour Aimed in this respect, though would be best to consider the WoD mastery that did allow movement.

Alongside this, Trickshot being activated from Multi, instead of requiring 3 targets (as mentioned above) would allow for cleave.

The limit of targets hit from Trickshot could be considered, but may come as a sacrifice to AoE output at lower target counts.

It hits plenty hard when buffed with TS and during Careful Aim. Its cast time is sped up considerably by ITR (remember 8 seconds after RF, which usually has a 20s CD, something you can knock down again with Lethal Shots) and its critical hit rate is higher when you have UV stacked. Plus, you’re using HM to push its damage just a wee bit more.

I have my gripes about Aimed Shot as well, but try not to consider the ability in a vacuum. That’s a mistake I made as well until I considered how it all came together.

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MM needs uncapped aoe and different gameplay besides being a turret with boring abilities. Needs to go back to the glory days of chimera shot MM.

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I whole heartedly agree with your stance on the old Chimera Shot.
I miss those days of Serpent Sting and last second Chimera Shots refreshing the dot and dealing massive damage.

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ya ive been spending more time on my dh lately just because of how MM is right now. I tried to get into BM but something about it just doesn’t do it for me. I really enjoyed the old MM and old SV hunter but hopefully they can help MM and maybe merge it with stuff from the old SV hunter from back in the day to create a really fun MM spec .

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I think we just need old ranged survival back :drooling_face:

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that doesn’t do anything for mm :tipping_hand_woman:t6:

Maybe not but it would give me another spec i enjoy to play.

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I forgot all about this topic and am just now getting back to it and I know this is a bit late but I just want to thank you Bepples for making what has to be the best informative and well laid out explanation of what we hunters actually have to do to be successful with the spec. I just wish that people other than us hunters here in this forum would actually be able to read it. It sure would help with all the negativity and incorrect thoughts on how the spec is played.

I did want to say that along with all of what you said this last raid tier and still now we had to also learn how to manage using the Razor Coral trinket. That one item added a lot more than just press button-activate trinket-dps boss. As we had to ensure that not only did we build enough stacks to make it useful,but also that we lined it up with both our cooldowns and also our essences. And to make things more difficult we had to also work around things like Ashvanes shield phases along other fight mechanics and whenever the raid decides to Hero (which I absolutely hate when they do it at the start since there is no time to build any stacks with that trinket).

I would have to say that to really be successful you can’t just know what buttons to mash in what order. But you have to put in the effort to learn the things that are going on with the spec as things are constantly evolving. Without keeping up to date with stuff you could easily not know about something that could make a huge difference in your gameplay/overall dps. And let’s also not forget about having to manage your gear and talents and essences depending on what exactly you are doing. That alone sometimes is enough to drive me crazy as I find myself spending more time on the raidbots site than I spend actually in game it seems some days.