Feedback: Rogue Updates

[Kaivax]

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Rogues in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Thank You

Before we continue testing The War Within, we’d like to take a moment to thank everyone who read and responded to the Hero Talent previews we posted over the last few months.

Looking to the Alpha

In this first Alpha build, every single class has at least one new Hero Talent tree available for testing, with the rest coming in the following weeks. We’re asking testers to initially keep several things in mind:

• There are UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
• Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI)
• New spell visuals and audio for several new Hero Talent trees are still a work in progress. Many trees are using placeholder assets for now that will be updated over the course of Alpha.
• There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus right now that we are prioritizing over other concerns such as tuning or generic class updates/maintenance:

• Finish building the remainder of the Hero Talent trees that are not yet available.
• Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

With the Alpha build being playable and all of the discussion that will occur around the flood of data, we wanted to reiterate that the responses to our blog previews were highly valuable. The feedback we received allowed us to make some early improvements or revisions while we didn’t yet have a public test environment. It allowed us to take some big early swings on certain trees, and then react to early feedback quickly.

Going forward, we aren’t planning to publish any additional Hero Talent previews in blog form, since we’ll add the remaining classes to the Alpha as soon as they reach their ready-to-test state.

Working from Feedback

Several Hero Talent trees have received changes after reading feedback to the blog posts. Some of these were tuning changes to ensure that the Hero Talent tree felt competitive, while others were significant design changes. The feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Going into Alpha, we feel good about the shape of the Hero Talent tree designs. Keeping a consistent number of utility and defensives nodes across all trees, having parity between number of choice nodes, and the overall structure of the trees are things we’re confident in.

We’re also working on tweaking some core class designs as well. In some cases, it was necessary to make adjustments to the class or specialization talent trees before significant work was done on a Hero Talent tree. In other cases, we did work seeking to improve base class talent tree designs.

Alpha Feedback

Now that we’re in Alpha, we’re looking for feedback on how it feels to playtest these trees. We’re specifically curious about:

• Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree.
• Hero Talents that create frustrating or unsatisfying gameplay or rotations for your spec.
• Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.

Throughput comparisons of Hero Talent trees are helpful, but we’re more interested in gameplay, feel, and choice feedback at this stage. Also, when possible, we appreciate it when you focus posts or articles on a single spec and Hero Talent tree, rather than combining feedback about multiple issues.

Again, Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback on Hero Talent trees and are very excited for you to see everything else we’re working on. Thank you!

– The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

[Eridian-tichondrius]

Trickster: A love letter to the old ways in a very Modern Rogue

• This is intended as feedback based off Alpha gameplay as a long time Subtlety rogue with the intent on how Trickster feels during various combat engagements, tools available aka utility, and a cumulative approach. (spoilers: the playstyle is fun, engaging, and requires thinking). It thematically fits and captures a Thief style play which I love and closes the gap a little bit akin to the old days while also creating interesting burst moments with Coup De Grace (capstone talent discussed).
• This write up is so that people without alpha can visualize what is occurring and a sense of how it is playing out instead of unnecessary bashing. This write up also serves to thank the developers for working hard on making something rogues may enjoy based on this playstyle as a whole picture (seeing the forest versus looking at the trees).
• I’m a very passionate and dedicated Subtlety rogue and I refuse to play anything else as this is all I have cared about since I started in late TBC / Early Wrath when I joined. I adore this tree as it marries the past with the present when you PLAY it instead of reading it. I encourage other rogues to look at it from an open mind instead of looking for silly gimmicks.

Terms and Keywords:

• Unseen Blade = UB, Secret Technique = ST, Shadowdust = Prep, Killing Spree = KS, Fazed = F, Flicker Strike = [FS], Flawless Form = FF, Restless Blades = RB, Escalating Blade = EB, Float like a butterfly = [FB], Internal Cool Down = ICD, Player Vs Player = PVP, Player vs Enemy = PVE, Nimble Flurry = NF, Surprising Strikes = SS, Echoing Reprimand ER, Goremaw’s Bite= GB , Sepsis = S, Don’t Be Suspicious = DBS, So Tricky = SoT,

Unseen Blade [UB]

• Primarily Feint activated instead of adding a new ability to our kit which would further pack Shadow Dance. Many others express how loading more into dance is not great and bridging the gap of the old days where Subtlety did some damage out of it instead of being completely reliant on Shadow Dance. I believe this along with the other triggers, does a solid job at accelerating interactions to get it to hit when you need it. Feint as others have spoken of, being a defensive primarily in the past and now with a offensive trigger at first glance seemed alright but after playing alpha feels completely fine. If anything, another trigger for UB could be added if the developers see that as necessary. After playing it a good bit, it felt easy to get rolling and Fazed offers different interactions which will be covered in a bit.
  Unseen blade interactions triggers

1. Feint (primary trigger)
2. Thousand cuts/ Flickerstrike (secondary triggers)

**Unseen Blade [UB] interaction with Thousand Cuts talent [TC] vs Training Dummy (rough example for illustrative purposes) **

• I saw anywhere of 3-4 triggers of UB without pressing feint due to TC. The trials were performed on a dummy just for data on TC. Assuming that FS behaves the same, a rogue can use at their discretion to trigger Feint for an initial stack and then 1 during an aoe event (depends on what all truly qualifies as an aoe attack that is listed) example being cleave attacks or attacks like shadowfury / Scorch and abilities that are multi target such as Fist of Fury or in pve with boss/ adds that do conical attacks to see if it registers (intended vs not intended) vs the Evasion aspect able to trigger from those events as well. Respectively, it still guarantees at least 1 trigger from either of those and will likely be tuned to perform accordingly. The table didn’t load correctly for accuracy but Mean = 7 PPM (3.5 ppm), 100 trials, Max = 11, Min = 6, Median = 7. This suggests it will reasonably proc during important events over time.

• Fighting actual enemies saw similar interactions where usually UB procced within the first few blows without using Feint. Stacks felt appropriately gained through TS and work similarly but through defensive reactions through Feint duration taking a blow [FS], or dodging during [FS] (discussed below).

Fazed [F]
How Fazed works [F]

• While UB is activated through one of the triggers, it will Faze the target and cause the rogue to deal 5% more damage. It feels as hemorrhage debuffing during Cataclysm (but with a 15 sec cd but with a 5% debuff) that was a great and interesting way to bring that back as Subtlety has been absolutely needing to marry the past with the present in more ways.
• It effects ALL rogue damage which is great and allows for build flexibility with that in mind which is a big win. SS from Fazed and Mastery amps from UB feel good to gain. Waiting to get into our next big Shadow Dance feels impactful instead of dreadful as [SS] / [UB] / [FF] help bring up those dreadful lows which have plagued us since Legion packing it all into Shadow Dance.
• Depending on how a person builds, amps through the specialization tree emphasize different strengths. The 5% helps bridge the gap a little and feels meaningful due to other talents also having supplemental effects which are solid.

Surprising Strikes [SS]

• While Fazed is active, makes generators shine more akin to the past. It can provide some decent backstab / Gloomblade (GB) hits if a rogue chooses to talent into it (sorely missed and heavily talked about over the past few expansions among the forums). This has a lot of synergy with Sepsis, Goremaw’s Bite, and Echoing Reprimand concerning special attacks and packs a punch. I really appreciate this as Subtlety always historically had some mean backstabs and ambushes, with the multiple triggers it can help bridge the gap a little and have some meaningful damage through specific interactions with F/ CC/ FF. A lot of us really enjoy generators and this tree has something for everyone. Backstab/ Gloomblade, and Shadowstrike are valued tools and talents should reflect that moving forward which has been beautifully done in Dragon Flight and this tree accents that further in The War Within instead of encouraging very limited styles. (big win)

Devious Distractions

• Simple and works well while emphasizing strong CDs (ST / KS) and accents NF and a rogue’s choice of other nodes to put the punch in those CDs even more or use that time to extend Fazed depending on how they want to operate. Nothing to sleep on where we need to see the full picture of how this all works well as it certainly does. This pairs well with Smoke / Mirrors for a small defense upgrade node while Fazed is active.
  Flicker Strike [FS]

• Upon activation of Feint or taking aoe damage while feint is active grants a second stack of EB (1x per 5 seconds during feint). Evasion grants 1 stack of EB with an ICD of 5 seconds (2 total possible to gain).
  Thousand Cuts [TC] vs Flicker Strike [FS]

• TC allows procs that occasionally occur (avg 3.5 per 30seconds) by auto attacks.

• FC allows for 1 stack of EC if hit with an Area of Effect (AOE) attack or 2 stacks throughout the duration of Evasion.

• [Prep] and [RB] are the main synergists when selecting this talent to help get a [CDG] up quickly along with the

• [+] Both can serve as a bonus during skill shot windows where the rogue needs to be mindful of CDs and encourages resource management.

• [+] great precise and quick feeling on the animation, deterministic way to build up a CDG hit,

• If the rogue IS NOT careful of spacing will break CC in pvp / dungeons as it IS an attack. TC does not offer control, however, provides a risk vs reward.

• The rogue will be limited to Feint when Evasion is down if not talented into TC. Feint activation as others have echoed in the Official Rogue forums have echoed a lot aren’t enthusiastic about using a primarily defense to turn into a tool for offense. After playing it on alpha, I can see that however we have 2 charges on a 15sec CD (good thing) with CDR for both specs where the rogue needs to maturely determine a space for using it if not talented into TC (Design Risk vs Reward presents itself).

• The Risk: If spacing isn’t mindful in close encounters that a hard CC such as Cheap shot/ Kidney shot are the rogue’s tools where Gouge/Blind/Sap will break much like other things in pvp with the large amount of poor awareness others show usually for a rogue’s cc to make an opportune moment really count.

• Reward: Additional stacks of [EB] sooner than anticipated can be prepared for and thoughtfully utilized for the next hard hitting [CDG].

• I don’t personally have a problem with how things are as is as TC is obvious to be offensive use and FS is a reward for defensive use without allowing for things to be too frequent while having high impact when they do occur (CDG in mind).

• The rogue needs to consider what can happen and whether they deem it necessary on the Risk vs Reward scale here. Either way, the rogue will deterministically build those stacks for the pay off during a burst moment while also allowing for higher fazed moments to bring the very poor lows as a Subtlety rogue up a little while waiting for our next Shadow Dance. (big win). Outlaw due to RB will have it more frequently depending on engagement per the natural ebb (good thing).
  o Request: Possible additional trigger if the development team is willing to as they deem fair and balanced without creating a “1 shot” paradigm. CDG is at a good spot where 2 per burst cycle can occur.
  o Both the choices have their place between [TC / FS] where it doesn’t “need” to change as it felt smooth where us rogues should consider risk vs reward and the gameplay associated. FS doesn’t feel behind TC and the triggers are different to encourage all talents and gameplay involved without scaling out of hand for EB interactions. I didn’t feel there was a problem with that and found it fun while positively challenging to figure out how I wanted to customize in my own style regarding specialization talents as a Subtlety rogue.

Flawless Form [FF]
Triggers of FF:

• 1.Secret Technique / Killing Spree
• 2.Unseen blade interactions

How FF works:

• Grants stack of 4.9% mastery per ST/ KS used or per UB trigger. Stacks can overlap and refresh the duration. If the target id distracted by Fazed, then the rogue gains 5 more stacks when they use CDG. With some luck you can land at pretty good stacks and gain 30-40% mastery during that time. A simple talent while not being disruptive to the rogue’s choices and benefits ALL builds.
• Having nimble flurry (NF) unlocked quickly provides ST and KS to have 10% increased damage, and more frequently due to both Subtlety and Outlaw maintain CDR on those key abilities also increases frequency of those attacks and Fazed debuff as well as the mastery hits. If a rogue chains together talents such as Cloud Cover + Elaborate Twirl (extends FF by 2 seconds for 7 seconds total) and uses feint, it gets pretty compounding and pays out strongly.

Cloud Cover [CC]

• What it does: [CC] Creates a thick smoke screen similar to Smoke Bomb in the old days where it was usable in all combat. This talent does NOT act as an LOS interference like the Legion to Present pvp version of Smoke Bomb.
• This is about a 12-yard range cover that causes all attacks you deal to any enemy within the cloud to apply Fazed [F]. The target takes 5% more damage from the rogue.
• The talent feels good as you can swap in case of priority targets to accelerate the process for a rogue and gain further stacks of FF to increase the mastery further and deliver some nasty hits which feels good. The rogue has control over what they want to do. The 90 sec cd did not bother me at all and was fun to play around with as someone who uses distract every expansion for various reasons even in dungeons. (ex: stopping an incoming patrol before they add frustration to the keystone).
• It replaces distract and can be used while a target is in combat unlike distract (It IS displayed in the tooltip of distract when talented). It’s a great talent that rewards the rogue for planning and adapting while bringing back beloved smoke bomb in a new way.

No Scruples [NS]

• NS is pretty nasty when considering 10% critical strike chance and didn’t feel behind CC. This works well when you want on demand burst where previously in DF it felt rough sometimes when 1 part of Eviscerate crits and the shadow part doesn’t. Outlaw has an affinity for critical strike and friends tell me that they are pretty happy with that.
• I enjoy this node as it is competitive while not making one superior over the other. I have a personal preference for CC but testing both has been a lot of fun for various reasons. Ex: More critical hits during a Shadow dance due to this being up versus CC providing me a way to forcefully activate fazed on multiple targets while not expending a charge of feint depending on the situation at hand (emphasized decision making of the rogue which I really like).

Don’t Be Suspicious vs So Tricky [DBS vs SoT)

• SoT is nice for rogues that don’t often press Tricks of the Trade or for chain pulling and is still useful and not to be discounted.
• DBS feels good as a decision-making tool where blind and shroud got a small but meaningful CDR to help accelerate things depending on what is needed. Good talents without serious impact that would alter or “cheese” things.

Coup De Grace

• This talent is wicked, It has a very cool flurry of slashes that feel satisfying as the animation and the blow from it lives up to the name (a deathblow / mercy kill). It grants 5 stacks of FF as previously discussed and can be chained well with other abilities. While Death From Above has been missed, I actually really like this way more instead of losing control of my character with a delay. Definitely would like to see this ability stick as is instead of adding another button in the future. This ability is great that it evolves Eviscerate and Black Powder into a new attack instead of flooding us with more cool downs. We are able to build it steadily, no crazy mini game to play, the buff Escalating Blade (precursor to CDG as a requirement) builds at a moderate cadence and feels impactful while planning instead of another annoying “1 shot” focused talent where Subtlety often gets put in time out for. It is satisfying for Outlaw as it upgrades into a big Dispatch that is equally effective.
• Side note: DFA was buffed to be a big hit again (40%) in this current alpha and it also feels like a satisfying hit instead of a way to avoid Crowd control effects.

Conclusion:

• Trickster is fluid, fast, and lots of toys that wonderfully pull inspiration as an option from the past to create a modern style of old rogue exist in our world. We have control over a lot of what happens save a few concerns that were discussed while not being restrictive or limiting. While some may disagree with me, I really and truly heartfeltly enjoy this tree as a rogue who likes to combine all sources of damage instead of finishers only.
• Generators feel impactful as someone who really loves the Gloomblade and Lingering Shadow route for big backstabs to hold me over until the next shadow dance. I really dig the crunch it throws on special attacks like Goremaw’s Bite and Sepsis as each tick did get harder and the final poison blast from Sepsis did considerably more damage due to talents like lethality and Surprising Strikes in addition to the new crit gems. It didn’t scale wildly out of control or feel at any point that some ridiculous interactions would occur. It encourages planning, precision, and turning the tide on enemies. I think the hero talent tree was well done and I have had a lot of fun slamming with it on alpha. I would like to encourage the community to think for themselves and unplug from number crunching for a moment as the developers said all the trees will be tightly tuned and they will be watching. The only suggestion I would request is a look at adding another trigger to Unseen Blade as the developers deem it fair and truly reasonable. This playstyle is quick, engaging, and impactful across the board. As a player who has been a rogue since I came into the game starting at the end of TBC / WOTLK and I do absolutely nothing else other than Subtlety it means a lot that all styles were thought of in this tree and all abilities get to shine instead of fixation upon one aspect of what has made Subtlety great over the years. Joining the past with the present in various small but weighted ways depending on how you build is a big win. Subtlety is more than just Shadow Dance. I really dig everything going on here and the current tools offered. Thank you and I look forward to further testing, I apologize if this was long but I wanted to illustrate how it feels and the cool interactions that were made. Definitely enjoyed this Hero talent tree and playstyle.

[Kaivax]

Greetings Rogues,

This week’s Alpha build includes many changes to Class and Spec talent trees, including a handful of positional swaps, tuning changes, and a few new and redesigned talents.

Feedback about these changes is welcome, so please post here with any notable experiences or opinions from your play in the Alpha test.

More change will be coming over the next few weeks, focused primarily on hero talents. Deathstalker is still lurking in the shadows and will be revealed when it’s ready (sometime in the next few weeks).

For Fatebound, more completed talents will be rolling in over time, and we have also been following gameplay and written feedback which will be cause for iterations to existing talents.

For Trickster, we’ve been following all of your feedback, and it has generated significant internal discussion. While the core pieces will remain in place (Unseen Blade, the Fazed debuff, and a grand finish in Coup de Grace), we expect to revisit the gameplay that fuels this engine, and most notably move away from Feint being a primary applicator of Unseen Blade. Unexpected randomly-timed procs of Unseen Blade have also proven to cause trouble and are being similarly reconsidered, in addition to minor updates for other talents.

Thank you to those who have played the Alpha and spent the time to share experiences and opinions so far. Keep it coming!

[Foreverguy-malganis]

Overall I like a lot of the changes. Crackshot has been since launch a pretty insane talent so giving some breathing room to other builds in the new expansion will be nice.

The only thing I really dislike is the global changes to Acrobatic Strikes, not just because of how fun it is to play with, but because Outlaw more so than most spec sort of needs it due to the way Blade Flurry works. Hitting all targets in range is significantly harder now, so hopefully some talent can provide the added range back to Blade Flurry at the least.

[Eridian-tichondrius]

Fatebound : Aggressively handing out beat downs
This serves as both feedback and for those who come to read this thread to get clarification from what to expect as a Player. I am NOT an Assassination or Outlaw rogue but I was testing it heavily from a mechanical standpoint, tried different builds and pushed whatever I could really heavily. My focus is to dispel confusion and illustrate what other rogues are looking at here based on combat and application. It is a lot of fun and it is really rewarding lining things up just like Trickster was but in a distinctly different way (really clever and rogue like for both trees).

Key terms: Fatebound = [Fate], Cosmic = [Cs], Tails = [T] , Heads = [H], Hand of Fate [HF], Chosen Revelry [CR] , Tempted Fate [TF], Player versus Player = [PvP] , Player versus Enemy = [PvE], Between the Eyes = [BtE] , Not Yet Implemented [NYI]

Hand of Fate:
How the Fatebound Coin works in combat:

• The coin stacks each time you Envenom or Rupture flipping between the 2. Heads increase overall dmg and tails increase the Fatebound Coin’s damage.
• The next finisher consumed immediately discharges the stacks of the Fated coin.
  • Ex: 5 stacks of 20% grants 100% increased damage added to the next finisher.
• The coin discharges the effect on the flip you land on, enhancing that ability. Ex: Rupture flips on tails, this will add a cosmic school hit UPFRONT in addition to Assassination’s damage over time effect.
  • Note: It is common to sit around 5-6 stacks during combat without CD usage. You can get 8 to sometimes 10 during burst windows using interactions described below without vanishing. If you can stealth or wait out vanish to enter true stealth, you can gain 2 more coins usually of the same fate and sometimes push some higher flips, but those events are rare as the probability usually flips to the opposite fate effect (fixed from the previous build where you could stack to 99 of the same face).
  • The low flips are not frequent, and they were observed to be around 3 as an average without any CD usage to guarantee fates.

Tails (T) being cosmic includes.

• physical/ frost / nature / shadow / holy/ Arcane / Fire
• This being cosmic (Cs), effects ALL modifications the rogue chooses for Outlaw and Assassination providing on demand damage when the rogue chooses to rip that finisher.

Heads (H)

Each stack of H will grant 5% damage increase, flipping sequential H will increase damage further. This effect will increase ALL damage of ALL builds to not limit the rogue on talent choices.

Chosen Revelry [CR]

• .5% leech is added to each consecutive stack you have consecutively landed on.
• Ex: T has flipped 2x, I now have 1% additional leech. Paired with any tertiary leech from enchants / gear / leeching poison/ shadowheart. Given Assassinations’ mixed profile you can have a considerable amount of leech as to help from healing. 3 stacks grant 1.5%, combined with leeching poison (pve only) is granting 15% leech which is considerably good. Stacks can reasonably be built between 5-6 stacks and then they reset the cycle usually. Be mindful that leeching poison is not increased in [pvp] but the leech is still fair as a cumulative effect to help assist Outlaw and Assassination. This talent functions somewhat like the old Roll the Bones effect that granted leech but not as extreme as to not create an unhealthy amount of tension.

Tempted Fate [TF]

• [TF] is very straight forward, the more critical strike chance you have, the more of a chance up to 40% to ignore 10% of any attack that would strike you. This did feel noticeable as I stacked what crit I could, especially with critical strike enchants on the alpha vendor and Outlaw naturally gaining it through [BtE] interactions.
• The choice between [TF] and [CR] felt close.

Mean Streak [MS]

• The coin having two sides is a 50% chance naturally, using envenom adds another 33% chance to land on the side you previously flipped to.
• Juggling between finishers when I wanted to switch or probability naturally evening the outcomes back to the opposite side for balance.
  • I noticed an average of 5-6 stacks of the coin’s effects when mostly using Envenom / Dispatch.
  • Using other finishers usually altered the coin 3-4 stacks on average.

Inexorable March [IM]

(NYI) Not yet implemented on this alpha but with consecutive flips (2 of the same face) will prevent you from being slowed below 70%. Stacks naturally accrue where there is very little down time without the amount needed to maintain the effect.

Death’s Arrival [DA]

• (NYI) Not yet implemented on this alpha but after using Shadowstep (Assassination only) or Grappling Hook (Outlaw only) , you can re-use the ability if triggered under 3 seconds. This would allow for Assassination / Outlaw to snap back to a primary target after interrupting or movement to a friend and peel for them in X content then step to another of your choosing if within the time frame of 3 sec.
• Both choices have benefits and are impactful (solid talents).

Deal Fate [DF]

• Straight forward, Mutilate or Fan of Knives generates an additional combo point for Assassination when triggered by Seal Fate
• When Sinister Strike strikes again, Outlaw will generate an additional combo point.
  • Felt smooth for generation and saved a fair amount of energy for both specializations. On critical strikes Assassination was either 5 or 6 combo points.
  • Outlaw had similar instances where ambushes generated additional combo points in addition to Sinister Strike and their natural kit where combo points were nearly filled regularly. There was a moderate cadence without going into dangerous levels of combo point generation.

Edge Case [EC]

• Using your major cool down Deathmark or Adrenaline Rush, will grant BOTH coin flip effects. Be mindful that the coins do not expire and if paired with Double jeopardy, can grant you 3 coins of both effects immediately if you chose to do so.
  • This talent felt nice as you can get some pretty nice consecutive flips with it when you want to on demand and eliminate RNG to continue an impactful cascade when wanting to preserve stacks during your burst to focus down an enemy hard.
  • Example: 326k envenom into a 196k [T] interaction on the elites in Azj-kahet did occur.

Threads of Fate [ToF]

(NYI), Envenom / Dispatch will duplicate 20% of their damage as cosmic damage in a group or in single target combat. With how well the Tails flip can naturally build, this talent will be impactful in both AOE and single target and benefits both rogues.

Delivered Doom [DD]

• Increases damage of the cosmic T coin by 35% when flipped by Envenom or Rupture for Assassination. This has some solid impact where it was exciting to line up big ruptures and paired with inevitable demise, could really destroy some elites in the area.
• For Outlaw this does not take effect while blade flurry is active. It’s for a good reason as well. The cosmic damage slams well enough to hold its own. Crackshot windows during testing are impacted and the cosmic amplification adds considerable amounts of damage for that or when using [BtE] on its own, or for Summarily Dispatched stacking to have an impactful finisher.

Destiny Defined [DDF]

• Adds another 5% to match your last Fated flip and gives 5% more application chance of poisons for Assassination. When testing this felt solid with Dragon Tempered Blades and getting a little more mileage out of it.
• This will add another 5% chance for Sinister Strike and by nature Hidden Opportunity for more Ambushes as it inherits the effects.
  • This talent is a nice positive feedback loop for both specializations and helped with energy economy a little due to generating some good combo points paired with [DF] and linked things together well.

Inevitability [I]

• [NYI], Cold blood has 2 charges and is ONLY affects Envenom / Dispatch. This also guarantees a desired outcome akin to [EC].
• The rogue will have control when they want to utilize a big stack during burst which will yield some interesting results depending on how the rogue plans and adapts.

Double Jeopardy [DJ]

After breaking stealth, your next finisher will yield 2 of the SAME coin flips. This acts as an accelerant to getting the stacks moving very quickly. Combine this with the other talents described and it felt very rewarding for the rogue to line up burst windows and the on-demand interactions.

Fateful Ending [FE]

After consecutively landing the same Fated Coin 7 times, you are granted a Lucky coin. While it doesn’t seem impactful, consider all the enchants and compounding effects the rogue can customize in their individual trees while not stifling talent choices.

• Agility is increased by 1% along with all secondary and tertiary stats (leech, avoidance, etc.).
• This effect persists in combat and grants a 10second grace period when combat ends to maintain the buff again. This does not restart by flipping a new outcome, it only falls off if you are out of combat past that 10 second window.

Overall Impression and closing note:

• Fatebound took very little time getting used to and I did feel it was engaging and fast paced.
  • It would be nice for another visual indicator to be added for the [T] interactions on the enemy, so the rogue knows they are popping that enemy hard or add the old Elaborate planning VFX to the rogue to know they landed on [T].
  • Damage ramping up reminded me of old “Red buff” in a sense except less extreme and not nearly as much wait.
  • The rogue can turn the hand of fate by using certain CDs in combination with proper planning and the pay of feels significant. The tree does a solid job at not “forcing” certain talents and benefits all damage while providing some nice quality of life in several talents as a supplementary effect to encourage different styles of play.
  • Once the fates were lined up, there was definitely a lot of pay off and abilities slammed pretty hard. After observing other classes do their thing; rogues are holding our own in both the Trickster and Fatebound tree despite the skepticism and unwarranted dooming.

This was fun to play and matches well for Assassination and Outlaw while having solid on demand damage when they choose to activate it. It was fun to make new combinations of abilities and plan around. The same can be said about my previous write up on Trickster. Solid tree and I encourage people to play it and find your own style. Both the Trickster and the Fatebound tree offer different playstyles that focus on the core mechanic instead of turning us into something silly. They don’t feel stagnant and are very dynamic which definitely kept me adapting. There are triggers built into both that give you the on demand interactions that you need.

[Inhume-eredar]

Losing acrobatic strikes is going to be the biggest rewiring of every outlaw rogue that has been playing since at least legion. Please reconsider this kind of thing for outlaw. That’s 8+ years of hard wiring to undo for some people.

My biggest want of removal going into TWW is to remove UHUH and the whole extension of AR. It’s caused AR to be no longer a cooldown but a maintenance buff that is extremely rewarding but even more punishing. Playing the game without AR up all the time is like a different game. You have a longer GCD, you have less energy, you have less energy regen and you even do less damage.

The removal of shadowdance is an overall nerf for rogues and I feel this was the wrong decision. As of right now, there are barely any exciting talents in the rogue general tree as capstones. You’ll have an extra vanish, energy restoration and an extra ability attack.

We need things like DFA, cannonball barrage, anticipation (extra combo points stored), fangs of the father effect or shadow dance. Things that do cool things for rogues. Right now, you could have a general rogue capstone talent and no one would even know you did something different.

Fatebound (definitely not a fan of this name, feels like it’s more of a gambler/maverick) and Tricksters should definitely switch places. Assassination doesn’t have the finisher numbers to keep up with the number required for the coin clip mechanic.

IE
Fatebound - Outlaw/Sublety
Trickster - Outlaw/Assassination

Shadowheart - I’m not sure I like this talent, it’s 3 seconds of extra leech if you don’t go subterfuge or a talent that does leech while you just sit in vanish. That’s almost 4 talents now dedicated to self healing for the rogue. If you’re going for utility, go for talents that buff distract range/reduce cooldown since that’s going to be a feature in trickster currently.

Trickster
Unseen blade - can’t comment too much since it was stated that this is going to change on the activation. I hope it’s tied to things like BTE/bladeflurry/secret technique/symbols. Just something that naturally happens in the rotation and allows for spread on the AOE abilities

Smoke/mirrors - can’t complain ,these seem fine

Thousand cuts/flicker strike - this seems hard to balance in terms of procs from flickerstrike versus procs from thousand cuts. It should probably just be one is an active (IE feint/evasion) and the other is the passive auto attack)

Cloud Cover -This talent is just bad for the rest of the tree. You’re going to have a 90 second distract which lowers the value of Surprising strike. It’s a great talent for utility but it kills the rest

Surprising strike - Lethality is barely taken currently in any builds and we’re adding another talent for 25% crit damage. This is just going to end up being a meme build thing.

So tricky/don’t be suspicious - these are really good utility talents but that sap range is absurd. Blind cooldown too? That’s just a nightmare for AWC pvp.

nimble flurry - seems good

flawless form - both outlaw/sub are going to have different values on how good this talent is.

Coup de grace - seems…ok? Just another maintenance buff to maintain/watch

Fatebound
There needs to be a cap on the number of flips in a row for a bonus. Losing a 13 stack was oof for me. It would flow better for fateful ending to consume the stack, grant bonus stats and then deal damage.

Edge case - I don’t think works right with Double jeopardy. You end up getting a weird set of double flips instead of both flip.

Double jeopardy - good way to game the stacks as it were

Deal fate - Sinister strike is going to do 1 , 3 ,4,5, 6 combo points. Can we just get it normalized a bit to just one extra combo point all the time?

Delivered doom - this talent needs some sort of activation for bladeflurry otherwise it’s a dead talent in M+.

Inevitability - This talent should probably be buffed to 3 dispatches. It’s not competing enough with Destiny defined. 5% extra attack and 5% extra chance on flips is strong comparatively.

Inexorable march/Death’s arrival - overpowered great talents, probably too good in pvp settings.