12.1 Survival Hunter Feedback

In Development Midnight: Curse of Ula'tek Public Test Realm
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Hello! I wanted to start a thread for Survival Hunter feedback. While we might not have many changes so far, the ones we DID get have been requested, which is great to know our feedback was heard.

I want to briefly go over some of the biggest issues and concerns that remain. Before getting into that, though, the Primal Surge change is great! The new Capstone is interesting as well. I am looking forward to these changes on live.

Tier Set

I won’t spend too much time talking about it here (I’m making a separate post in the tier set feedback thread) but in terms of gameplay, it’s incredibly lacking. The 2pc and 4pc do not interact, nor do they have any gameplay implications. Both bonuses are passive damage increases and have nothing engaging or interesting.

I would love to see something added to the tier set, like “Boomstick pauses the duration of Mongoose Fury stacks while channeling”. This would really lean into a Mongoose Fury tier set and create some small burst windows that you want to set up and create some new gameplay.

BUGS:

Outland Venom has been bugged since Alpha began. There are two issues with this talent:

  • It is supposed to increase critical strike damage by 4% per dot. It only increases crit damage by 2% per dot currently.
  • It only counts dots sourced from the PLAYER. This means that Rend Flesh and Sic 'Em does not contribute to Outland Venom.

The only DoTs that work with this talent are Wildfire Bomb/Shrapnel Bomb and Sanctified Armaments.

I DO think that fixing both of these issues at once would make the talent too powerful. Either of them getting fixed would probably be enough.

Additionally, there is no visual indicator for how many stacks of Outland Venom a target has. When we used this talent in The War Within, a very frequent question was “does Outland Venom even work?”. There is no way to tell if Outland Venom is even active on your target without very extensive testing and this seems really unintuitive.

Hunter’s Mark

Hunter’s Mark can now be applied to up to 5 targets. While this is very nice, we still have to manually cast Hunter’s Mark on each target. This already feels awkward on the PTR and I think it will feel even worse in raid environments, where the ideal play for hunter is to just cast our raid buff several times in a row. Other classes that apply a damage buff, like Monks and Demon Hunters, have it apply automatically. Can we at least get the option to have Hunter’s Mark apply to 5 targets with one button press? Casting it 5 times for 5 targets is a bit excessive.

Flamefang Pitch

Flamefang Pitch is another part of the talent tree that has been problematic since Alpha.

Currently on Live, FFP builds are around 8% worse on ST and 6% worse in AoE. The spell itself would have to be DRASTICALLY buffed to cover that gap. FFP itself also comes with the frustrating issue of being a ground-targeted AoE that mobs can run out of. There are some fun parts to FFP though, like Grenade Juggler and Wildfire Imbuement.

Flamefang Pitch could be cool if it had more interactions within our kit. Currently, our Raptor Strike/Raptor Swipe loop with Strike as One has a ton of interacting talents within the tree. Flamefang Pitch is pretty neglected and doesn’t do much outside of pure damage. It’s also incredibly frustrating to play with. Nobody likes playing with ground-targeted aoe spells that mobs can run out of. We have been here so many times with effects like Soulforge Embers in Shadowlands, Wild Spirits in Shadowlands, and the old Lunar Storm last expansion. Lunar Storm, for example, was changed to be a mobile circle, due to player feedback.

This side of the talent tree really needs some attention and I would hate to see it neglected for another tier.

Hero Talent Balance

Sentinel has not been viable in raid since October 2024. While it seems to be closing the gap slightly on PTR, it is still behind Pack Leader by a bit. During the Midnight Prepatch, Sentinel received some nerfs and the hero tree never recovered. It would be nice if some of these were reverted to help balance Sentinel; one of them in particular nerfed the Wildfire Bomb CDR from Sentinel’s Mark procs from 6s to 4s. This nerf made it so Sentinel’s Mark can proc but you still do not have enough CDR to cast Wildfire Bomb. It would feel much smoother if it were reverted back to 6s. This became an issue recently because in 12.0.5, Lunge was changed to no longer grant Wildfire Bomb CDR, which didn’t impact Pack Leader much, but it did make Sentinel feel worse to play.

Sentinel does not have enough Wildfire Bomb CDR to make use of Sentinel Mark procs.

Lunge

The 2H vs DW balance is getting much closer! Currently, Dual Wield is still a bit ahead, but I think there is an easy fix here.

Currently, Lunge increases Agility by 2% and an additional 2% if you are Dual Wielding. If this were changed to 3% and an additional 1% while Dual Wielding, I think the balance would be perfect. Neither would be overperforming the other like Dual Wield currently is.

Hogstrider

The Hogstrider change in 12.0.5 was great! However, there is one issue with Hogstrider. This is a 20 second buff and Boomstick has a 45s cooldown. These two will rarely line up on Single Target and it’s also not worth holding Boomstick to line up with Hogstrider, either. It’s also mildly annoying because it makes Boomstick glow for 20 seconds, even though you cannot cast it.

I think either increasing the duration of Hogstrider or making it automatically apply to your next Boomstick is the simplest.

Outro

Thanks for reading my wall of text and thanks for listening to feedback so far since the Alpha began.

36 Likes
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everything in this is 100% accurate blizzard please read this

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I like the talent after FFP about coating your weapons in fire, wish FFP wasnt an ability at all (jank to use and adds screen clutter with that fire on ground graphic) and just a passive that allowed your fire dmg procs to interact with your wildfire bomb DoT and cause them to explode/echo dmg or something.

Center tree is Takedown focused, right side is Kill Command/Tip of the spear focused, left side should be Wildfire Bomb focused.

Feels like PL gets a lot of thematic support from talents like bleed convert/physical dmg conversion but with Sentinel being arcane dmg, left side fire dmg talents just clash.

I personally enjoy the AoE talent build loop of reducing cooldowns via Boomstick and WF bomb and kinda wish Lethal Calibration was more near the Boomstick talent area with a more Tips/KC talent at the bottom capstone. Having Lethal Calibrations for the ST build as an option if the left side receives more changes would be fun? the small game play moments it creates when adds spawns or you are min/maxing reducing your Boomstick CD to fit another one in is enjoyable.

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this would be such a good idea

FFP design right now is just too awkward. the cooldown is too long for a ground targetted effect that mobs can just walk out of.

name is awesome tho

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My only gripes with SV hunter atm are really a couple of things.

No customisation at all on boomstick, seriously just have it hook into your ranged weapon xmog choice in that set, before anyone uninformed on the xmog system comments this does not effect your DW/2h chosen mog and can be set-up in tandem right now in the system as is. So it’s an easy fix.

Flamefang Pitch, it’s an awful ground based ability that doesn’t move, is easily trolled by remove this asap and rework it into a melee based flame slash cooldown that leaves a dot on targets hit and imbues your weapon, think the Flintslate from Hollow Knight:Silksong, ignite your weapon, do a sweeping carve and then deal extra fire damage for Xs after cast. This would fix a core issue of SV being too gadget/tool focused while also bringing in another melee animation to it’s gameplay to help balance out visual fatigue of you always throwing random bombs or pulling out a low poly gun to blast with.

Hunter’s mark rework. oh boy, i made a thread on this one in here with my initial thoughts.

TLDR: on that, just make it a passive applied to all targets or make it a raid buff like Battleshout, Skyfury etc that makes you do 3% more dmg to your primary target and 1 or 1.5% additional damage to secondary targets. This 5 target cap nonsense of having to press hunter’s mark up to 5 times is the most unhinged and out of pocket nonsense I’ve seen in this game in a long time. The friction caused here is ridiculous.

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100% agreement with Leak, thank you for taking the time for making this post and everything you do for us survival hunters.

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Please listen to Leaku here. Especially with Hunter’s Mark and Hogstrider both things are very awful to play with as they are.

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Raptor Strike

Raptor Strike should be baseline, known upon character creation. It is the fundamental melee ability. This will let players know off the bat that melee is an option for Hunter. And for those that want to go that route, they can do so in an interactive way instead of having to grind out 13 levels by auto-attacking.

Serpent Sting

This iconic ability is sorely missed in this iteration of Survival. By making Raptor Strike baseline, you would free up an early talent slot where we could gain access to Serpent Sting. I would suggest filling the empty slot with the following:

Venomous Fangs - Your Raptor Strike and Kill Command apply Serpent Sting to the target. Applying Serpent Sting to a target already affected will spread Serpent Sting to up to 3 nearby targets.

This would also give some much-needed weight to talents like Unnatural Causes in the class tree and Outland Venom in the Survival Tree. It would also add a little more credibility to the claim we see on the specialization screen that Survival utilizes animal venom.

Boomstick / Flamefang Pitch

Boomstick as a mandatory talent has been extremely polarizing for Survival Players. Some players love it while many consider it an afront to what the spec should be. Flamefang Pitch on the other hand seems to be universally considered a disappointment with its ground-based damage over time. Kill two birds with one stone by making the following adjustments:

Change the Boomstick talent to Fury of the Eagle, which could be given an updated animation / function of 4 slashing attacks like we see with Raptor Swipe + Aspect of the Eagle. Damage and range would be the same as current Boomstick. Talents that affect Boomstick could retain their same function, needing only adjusted names:

Shellshock > Isolated Prey

Mongoose Rounds > Fury of the Wild

Wildfire Shell > Controlled Burn

Lethal Calibration > Blood on the Ashes

I would then like to suggest that the Flamefang Pitch talent be adjusted to the following:

Fire Power - Wildfire Bomb is upgraded to Flamefang Pitch, exploding for X Fire damage in a cone and igniting the ground beneath its target. Enemies caught in the flames are set ablaze, taking Y damage over 6 seconds. (Ground-based flames apply the DoT instantly, and to any enemy who passes through while they remain)

Fury of the Eagle is upgraded to Boomstick, dealing its damage as Fire damage from 4 shots over 3 seconds. (Ignores armor, benefits from Flamebreak)

This would inadvertently buff Wildfire Imbuement, igniting your attacks with every WFB. This is a much-needed functional improvement to an otherwise fun talent that many people want to use.

I would then like to suggest that Grenade Juggler be changed to the following:

Deadly Devices - Flamefang Pitch (WFB) reduces enemy movement speed by 30% decaying over 3 seconds. Multiple applications of its damage over time may overlap. Its ground-based flames apply a stack every 2 seconds.

Raptor Swipe

Raptor Swipe is a great Apex talent, but I want to see more of it for the 4 points that I have to invest. I would recommend the following adjustments:

Rank 1 - Raptor Strike upgrades itself to Raptor Swipe, dealing X damage to all enemies within 15 yrds in front of you. Damage reduced beyond 5 targets. (100% chance to upgrade)

Rank 4 - Takedown upgrades Raptor Strike to Raptor Swipe for its duration.

Raptor Swipes that benefit from Tip of the Spear provoke an additional Strike As One at Y% effectiveness and extend the duration of Takedown by 1 second.

Hatchet Toss

This ability adds a nice bit of flavor to the spec but largely fails to justify its existence. This ability could be so much more by allowing it to take up the role that Kill Shot once held. In the aftermath of the pruning that many agree has left the gameplay feeling bland, bringing back Deathblow procs would be a great way to inject a bit of excitement and interaction into the spec.

It would also make a great deal of sense to incorporate Hatchet Toss and Deathblow into Survival Pack Leader, given that Rexxar has become the face of Survival and is widely known for his axe-throwing skills, and Pack Leader utilizes his pack of beasts.

Hatchet Toss could deal 350% of Attack Power (compared to Raptor Strike’s 393%) as physical damage, but against enemies below 20% health its damage would be doubled.

Sic ‘Em in the Survival tree could also include a Deathblow proc, giving your bleeds a chance to cause your next Hatchet Toss to deal damage as though the target was below 20% health.

No Mercy in the Pack Leader tree could also increase the threshold for Hatchet Toss to deal increased damage to enemies below 35% health.

Hogstrider could just grant Deathblow and cause Hatchet Toss to strike up to 4 additional targets when consuming Deathblow. (Parallel function to BMs Hogstrider)

Hoof and Blade could cause Hatchet Toss to deal its damage as bleed damage (ignores armor, benefits from increased bleed dmg talents) and increase the number of targets struck by Hatchet Toss by an additional 2 when consuming Deathblow.

Sharpened Fangs could also cause the cooldown of Howl of the Pack Leader to be reduced by 3 seconds when consuming Deathblow.

Hatchet Toss is incredibly slow. The speed of the projectile should be increased by at least 100%, but probably more.

Target Engagement

The neutered target engagement of Survival continues to be a pain-point. This was once one of Survival’s greatest strengths and reasons to the play the spec, but after the pruning, Survival is now one of the worst melee specs in this department.

We only have a single charge of Harpoon on a 20 second cd and its cooldown is no longer reset upon killing a target. Warriors have 2 charges of Charge, both on a lower cooldown than Harpoon, for example.

Both Coordinated Assault with a 40 yrd range and a 15 yrd range Flanking Strike every 30 seconds were taken away for the consolation prize of Takedown with a 15 yrd range. Havoc didn’t have The Hunt and Fel Blade merged into a single cd with a 15 yrd range. So why was Survival’s target engagement nerfed so heavily?

Please take another look at Survival’s ability to engage its targets. Returning Harpoon resets on kill and increasing Takedown’s range to 30 yrds would seem well within reason.

Thanks for all your hard work as well as your time and consideration of player feedback.

4 Likes
Two buttons rotation survival
Two buttons rotation survival
Two buttons rotation survival
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I wish they’d get rid of dual wield. It’s made gearing so annoying especially with the new void cores. And having the best weapons be daggers doesn’t fit the hunter theme at all.

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As a SV Main for all of 12.0, I think there’s so much room for improvement (bug fixes, QoL fixes). Please listen to what Leak is suggesting, some of this is common sense and if blizzard were to take a closer look, some really low hanging fruit to fix and make this spec feel less overlooked.

Thank you!

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Leak is definitely the person to listen to!

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While I appreciate Primal Surge access earlier in the tree, I would really prefer if the new talent Razor Edge was a single point. It’s the only capstone that requires 2 points.

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I hope these are being considered for next PTR build; these issues are just becoming more apparent with more time on PTR.

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This single handedly makes me not want to play pack leader Surv.

It causes major anxiety pressing boomstick before I get a boar proc because I know the second I press it that stupid pig is going to sprint across my screen and boomstick will glow without the ability to use it before the buff is gone. :frowning:

I never know if I should wait for an RNG proc or just send it during takedown windows even if I miss the boar. There has to be a better way to design it.

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Step 1: You pretend that it doesn’t even exist and go about your business.
Step 2: You get a CDM that hides the proc glow so you don’t have to look at it.

On a more serious note it’s just poor design. It’s not something you play around, it’s just something you ignore and if it lines up at some point it lines up. If anything it needs to be more deterministic if they want it to add an interesting interaction.

Primal Surge moving up higher is a good thing (should be baseline for SV imo) but what should be a win by allowing for more build diversity is hampered by the fact that you will probably still just go down the same side. You will pick up Razor Edge and forget the left side of the tree exists.

Would like to see a rework of Flamefang Pitch, ideally not a ground targeted spell. Also Pack Leader is getting a little stale and would love for Sentinel to get some play for once.

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just ignore the talent. it’s cool when it lines up but otherwise not worth stressing about it

so real

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Ive said it in every thread talking about Hunters Mark, this needs to be worked, single target HM spamming is dumb on a M+ scenario.

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perhaps next week

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I agree with everything that OP stated. Especially regarding Hunter’s Mark.

Having to click it 5 times is just silly and takes the fun out of using the ability.

The only thing that I would add is Tauren Hunter still can’t use Ancestor’s Might when the totem is the STAPLE TO THE TAUREN RACE!

I want my Tauren SV Hunter to be able to use a giant 2-hand totem just like Tauren warriors and Paladins can.

Give Ancestor’s Might the option to be a transmog for both 2-Hand Maces as well as Staves.

ALL Tauren should be able to use Ancestor’s Might.

MAKE IT HAPPEN BLIZZARD!

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I have nothing to add other than my discontent with FPP being dead on arrival (which is good because it’s horrible to use), hunters mark being janky as hell to use and then somehow being made more janky, and bomb being so weak it’s just a filler thrown for focus.

Flamefang could easily be remade as a proc for bomb that turns it into a giga-bomb that has the same effects as pitch and refunds a charge to use it immediately. Resolving both it’s weak power problem, awkwardness of it essentially being a large wildfire bomb, and how awful ground targeted rotation abilities are to use.

Sentinel could use the mark damage being returned to 130% and refund to 6s. It struggles to have enough bombs to proc marks, and the marks themselves feel quite weak.

Bomb in general is pretty weak. We don’t even run the Wildfire Shells talent because Raptor just outshines bomb’s damage so much.