12.1 Discipline priest Feedback

12.1 Discipline Void Shield Priest Feedback

With the release of the 12.1 PTR and the announcement of many class changes coming with it, I wanted to take an opportunity to talk about the proposed Discipline Priest changes and provide some feedback on the overall design direction and gameplay implications as a result. In the bluepost containing the 12.1 class changes, we were provided the following Developer note about the design goals:

Developers’ notes: For Discipline in Curse of Ula’tek, our changes are aimed at reducing the spec’s reliance on procs for effective healing, improving sources of consistent damage, and improving Hero talent balance. We felt the spec was too reliant on Shadow Mend and Void Shield procs for effective healing, so we’re updating Shadow Mend to be a passive upgrade to Flash Heal and adding a deterministic way to gain access to Void Shield. Additionally, Smite contributes a low amount of damage despite being frequently cast, so we’re increasing its damage and updating the talent tree for easier access to Greater Smite.

While these design goals are great on paper, I want to break down why the proposed changes fail to accomplish some of them and simply introduce others in the process.

The Elephant in the Room

Including gameplay adjustments following the proposed class changes, Void Shield will be making up approximately (using an Oracle Raid Encounter Example):

  • ~25% of our DPS
  • ~45% of our Direct Healing
  • ~28% of our Atonement healing
  • ~40% or more of our total Atonement’s applied

To say that this spec functions entirely through Void Shield would be an understatement. While the proposed changes clearly stated one of the goals being our overreliance on Void Shield procs for effective healing, simply adding a way to force the proc and therefore increasing the expected Void Shield CPM does little to reduce how much of the spec is reliant on Void Shield to function.

While my ideal solution would likely be just simply going back to the drawing board for a new Apex talent, I understand that is simply not an option at this moment. Additionally, with the adjustment removing Atonement application from Penance, I don’t think the spec functions all that well in Raid without the Atonement application portion of this higher CPM of Void Shield post changes. As a result, I think the best temporary solution to the problem is simply reducing the effectiveness of the spell numerically and adding power back into the rest of the kit. The frustrating RNG aspect, the desire to track the deck via third party tools, etc. all go away as well when the spell only makes up a small portion of our output. These frustrations only exist because the spell currently makes up almost 40% of our total output. Additionally, while I understand that Inescapable Torment was disproportionally strong compared to other talents, it’s a bit unfortunate to see one of the only other major sources of Atonement healing take a huge nerf while the higher CPM of Void Shield largely counteracts the nerfed reflect rate leaving the total contribution of Void Shield mostly the same.

As a side note, one of the stated goals was to reduce the frustration of the RNG nature of Void Shield by adding a forced proc on Mind Blast. This doesn’t really solve that issue. You’ll still want to manipulate/track the deck to get a proc ready in advance of major damage events followed by then also force proccing one via Mind Blast and therefore stacking back to back Void Shields to make up for the nerf to the transfer rate. The forced proc doesn’t necessarily mean you just stop caring about the naturally proccing ones via Penance casts. I do not necessarily think anything needs to be done here, but I just wanted to make it known that as long as Void Shield is still this important to the spec, the addition of a forced proc via Mind Blast does not actually reduce the impact the RNG nature of the procs from Penance have on our output.

The Shadow Mend Treadmill

Focusing on reducing our reliance on RNG further, Shadow Mend has been adjusted to no longer be proc based. With the spell previously proccing off of Shadow Word: Pain ticks, whether you had access to the spell or not was a major determining factor in regards to your ability to handle single target healing requirements. While the removal of the RNG is a good thing, moving Shadow Mend back to just a spammable single target heal leaves us with a variety of unsolved problems.

Just looking at the proposed adjustments to Shadow Mend first, why does a single spell need 3 different downsides tied to it? Not only does it have the long standing DoT portion of the spell as a drawback, albeit a minor one, but now it also costs 38.9% more mana, has a 33% longer cast time, and costs 2 talent points in the capstone area of the tree for 45% more healing than simply casting a Flash Heal. Additionally, in any situation where you need to fall back on spamming Shadow Mend to handle a heavy DoT effect on an ally, 3 Shadow Mend casts with Grim Deliverance talented take the exact same amount of time to cast as 4 Shadow Mends without Grim Deliverance but do less healing overall. Grim Deliverance simply becomes a Mana save but an HPS loss unless you’re strictly utilizing Shadow Mend with only Surge of Light procs, which is unlikely due to the nature of how single target healing requirements occur. With single target healing having been a pain point for Discipline for so long, I’m not really sure why we need to layer so many negatives onto a spell that already has a talent point opportunity cost.

Moving past just looking at the current design of Shadow Mend, we’ve unfortunately been here before. Discipline Priest has long had issues with weak single target healing that only really is ever “solved” by continuously buffing one of a few spells (Flash Heal/Shadow Mend/Power Word: Shield). With these spells having no interaction with Atonement and Atonement having no method for more granular control over output on individual targets, we often end up in these awkward situations. Atonement becomes a very binary solution; either it’s enough to handle the incoming damage on a single target or it isn’t and there is nothing you can really do to influence that. Whenever it’s not enough, your answer is to fall back on Shadow Mend. We’ve had seasons in the past where our single target healing was weak so Shadow Mend got buffed. Suddenly Shadow Mend is better than your non-cooldown Atonement healing so you start just solely casting Shadow Mend whenever people need help. The spec quickly devolves into a non-Atonement focused Shadow Mend bot simply because it was buffed to help fix our single target issue.

We need to take a step back from just looking at Shadow Mend as the sole solution and instead looking at the design issue as a whole. Atonement is the core identity of the specialization. We need something that ties into Atonement that gives us the ability to force more healing into a single person on a cooldown to add layers to our healing. Something to add additional tooling that doesn’t just result in us jumping ship straight to Shadow Mend when Atonement isn’t enough to brute force everything. Looking at Druid for inspiration with their ability to have precise control over the output provided to each ally via number and type of HoTs is something that I would consider a well designed system. I’m not saying we need to copy their talents or spells as is, just simply looking at the overall system design as an example of something well done. Alternatively, simply adding a mid range cooldown (30-45 seconds) that can assist with single target healing that also ties into Atonement would be nice to give us an additional layer between Atonement and Shadow Mend spam. I’ve used something like Vitality Conduit as an example of something that could work well funneling HP from other targets with Atonement into a single target for a period of time effectively converting your AoE Atonement output into a single target heal. Overall, I simply feel that the single target healing problem needs to be looked at with a wider lens than just trying to make Shadow Mend both an interesting and one size fits all solution or else we’ll fall right back into the same trap we’ve been in before.

Greater Smite Gameplay Friction

With Greater Smite being mentioned in the design goals explicitly as a way to push more power into Smite, the talent has some lingering gameplay frustrations that I would love to be addressed. The spec already asks you to press a lot of buttons on cooldown: Penance (for damage and as a Void Shield trigger), Void Shield, Power Word: Shield, Mind Blast (to open Entropic Rift when Voidweaver and to force a proc of Void Shield), and Shadow Word: Death in execute or whenever pets are active under Inescapable Torment. With that much competing for your GCDs, you’re rarely casting more than 2-3 Smites in a row before something else takes priority. With the current design of Greater Smite, without stacking a significant amount of Haste, you simply cannot cast anything in between 2 Smites without losing your stacks. Even with stacking a significant amount of haste you’re still looking at tight windows with limited room for human error to not lose your stacks. As a result, your average Greater Smite stacks per Smite cast over the course of a fight ends up being incredibly low during relevant damage windows.

The easiest solution would be a simple small increase to the duration of the buff on Greater Smite. I’m specifically saying small because I don’t believe it should be some longer buff that turns into a maintenance requirement where we have to cast a Smite every X seconds to keep the buff up the whole fight. A small increase from 2 seconds to 3, or at most 4, seconds leaves the spirit of the talent alive being a temporary boost to smite during periods of focused usage without it actively punishing you or getting in the way of you interacting with fight mechanics or keeping up with the rest of the specs gameplay requirements. Being able to dispel between two smites and not lose the stacks or simply using Penance on cooldown or using a Void Shield proc and then going back to smiting without losing the stacks would make the talent feel significantly more impactful and remove some of the potential frustration of targeting haste breakpoints to get casts off between smites.

The Current State of Uppies

Unlike previous sections, I don’t have a hard suggestion here for a very specific reason. There are a very large number of different design and tuning directions this spell could be taken but I simply do not want to make any suggestions or recommendations without knowing what you intend for this spell design and power budget wise. After repeated nerfs to our damage or Atonement and its general tuning, this spell feels incredibly…meh to use. It’s a fantastic concept and visually amazing, but pressing it just doesn’t feel good. For a four minute cooldown, it barely keeps pace with, or loses to, cooldowns with half its CD or less. It’s lost all of its supporting talents from previous expansions, and I get near constant questions from community members about how its targeting priorities even work. In practice it gets relegated to a gap-fill cooldown or a personal defensive in keys, and it only saw meaningful raid use this tier because most encounters had split or spread mechanics during the high-damage windows that prevented the usage of Power Word: Barrier.

So rather than guess at a solution, I simply want to propose a question: what do you want this spell to be doing? Is the intended power budget meant to justify a four minute cooldown, or should the cooldown come down to match where the power currently sits? Are you happy with its current usage in regards to the general confusion around its targeting and the consistent misunderstandings in regards to what it actually allows you to go over vs what you’re still going to get hit by while in the air? Or is this spell a candidate for a full design pass? I’m happy to give detailed feedback on any direction once I have a better understanding on what the goal with this spell is, but as of right now all I can really say is that it doesn’t feel great or impactful to use.

TLDR:

  • Void Shield: The forced proc raises our CPM but doesn’t reduce how reliant the spec is on the spell. I’d like to see its numerical effectiveness reduced and that power redistributed into the rest of the kit
  • Shadow Mend: We’re shoving three separate downsides into a single spell at once. Buffing it has historically led to the spec becoming a Shadow Mend bot. The real fix is addressing the single target healing issue as a systematic design flaw rather than overloading one spell as the solution.
  • Greater Smite: The 2-second buff window is too short to facilitate normal gameplay or encounter interaction without friction/frustration or chasing degenerate haste breakpoints. A small increase to 3-4 seconds keeps the talent’s intent without making it a maintenance buff.
  • Uppies: I’m not proposing a specific fix here on purpose but instead am simply raising concerns about the impact and effectiveness of this spell. Understanding the intended power budget and direction of this spell’s design would allow us to provide significantly better feedback in the future, but currently this spell feels disappointing.

Conclusion

Overall I’m very appreciative that some of the common community concerns were heard and looked at, but I hope we can get a bit more attention prior to 12.1 releases to address some of the more immediate concerns and design frictions with the proposed changes and current state of the spec. Thank you so much for taking your time to read all of my rambling and I look forward to seeing what comes next!

41 Likes

Yes yes very much this. I absolutely adored vitality conduit major essence back in bfa, it fits with the spec beautifully, and is a unique way of approaching single target that other specs simply do not have. I honestly couldnt think of a better solution. Very minimal adjustment would need to be made to port it over to modern disc.

Honestly, the minor essence was also good, but the major essence literally solves problems that plagues disc today (and since legion).

Links to those unfamiliar with vitality conduit

Major Essence (must have):

Minor Essence (cool but would prefer major)

Hello! This is a really well thought out post regarding the changes regarding Disc Priest! I am gonna respond to some of what you said while adding my own cents along the way.

I can’t argue with the math regarding how much we rely on Void Shield. Though I understand your dislike for Void Shield, I do like the return of having a shielding aspect for Discipline Priests. Though I do have to acknowledge that every time that Blizzard adds a shield aspect to the Spec, it is either to overpowered and thus makes Disc Priests entirely reliant on the shielding aspect, or it is so weak that it is not worth it in the end.

I am also surprised to see how much Void Shield does for us, and I guess that is something I did not consider when looking at the changes. I do agree, if it is doing that much, then we should try to redistribute power back into base spells, and honestly back into Atonement.

I also agree with what you are saying regarding the Single Target healing and buffing of Shadow Mend, which is now starting to look like a band aid fix.

I have been fully against the idea of having shadow mend costing more mana, and with Grim Deliverance, the cost came out to 12,500 mana, which is 5% of our mana pool, while Flash Heal is 3.2% of our mana pool. Which is a 56.25% mana increase, for something that is not as strong as it was in our current season. With Priests in general lacking anyway of getting mana returned them, this will make this spec even more mana starved than it already is in its current form.

I also agree that the negatives attached need to be scaled back or some removed entirely.

I also think they need to start reducing the number of 2 point cost talent spots towards the capstone talents. We were already getting throttled by this during the current season, adding three points that make Shadow mend competitive, makes that throttling even worse.

I do agree with you that at this point, Priests need a system that allow them to have the same robust mana economy that other healers have. The pet package is simply no longer effective the way they have automated and gutted it.

I agree with everything you posted, but to add my thoughts to this, the fact still remains that Smite, just does not do enough damage to justify it being used as actual dps to healing button they are trying to make it out to be.

Without buffing Atonement, Smite needs more damage increases in order for it to be viable to be useable in a healing situation. As I mentioned, I agree with you that the stacks of Greater Smite do need to be extended, we have to much going on that casting Smite will simply not be a priority.

At this point, the only suggestion I would have is simply reduce the CD to either 3 Minutes, 2 Minutes, or 1.5 Minutes. The output in either healing or DPS is simply to negligible for it to continue to be a 4 Minute CD. The fact that I could press this in a key and someone would still be close to death, or it being highly ineffective in raid for it to be worth keeping it at 4 Minutes.

That said, if they gave it an ample buff with better decision making regarding where the bolts are going, then it could possibly keep the 4 minute CD price tag, but in its current form, it simply does not qualify for a 4 Minute CD.

I agree with this, it is nice to see them actually respond to the criticism that have been laid out, but they seemed to add more concerns onto the plate rather than taking some off of it.

Excellent post over all though!

2 Likes

Great post, and I hope Blizzard takes it into consideration.

I don’t foresee Blizzard adding a new mid-range CD/ability any time soon though. The suggestion makes sense, but it also runs contrary to Blizzard’s stated goal of pruning certain classes. A consequence of said pruning, however, is what you just described imo; that so much power is crowded in 1-2 abilities. Blizzard has boxed itself in design-wise, which can always change, but I don’t foresee them making that leap for priests mid-expansion (we are not hunters . . . ).

Working within those confines, I think a “Greater Plea” spot-heal would check the boxes, although I am sure it would have to have 2-3 negatives or require a 2-3 talent point investment to boot.

Very good post.

I agree 100% with void shield needing power taken away from it and put into other areas (hopefully atonement). I also love the single target healing idea being put into atonement.

One thing I was hoping to see in the class tuning notes was a comment from blizzard about atonement tuning in raid vs mythic plus. In midnight season 1, atonement nerfs aimed at raid really made atonement healing non existent in dungeons and it felt terrible. This also lead to voidweaver disc suffering the entire season. I am glad they gave voidweaver some buffs, I hope it doesn’t stop there IF it needs further tuning in season 2.

1 Like

One point of friction this past season has been that in spite of Void Shield’s design as an atonement applicator, its strength as a throughput button has led us to prioritize buffing it via our mastery by casting it only once we have applied atonement to the entire raid or party. This has been compounded by Oracle increasing shields’ power by a further 30% when cast on ourself, resulting in a very restrictive use of what is clearly meant to be a more flexible button.

To put this in the same terms as the recently announced Penance Atonement changes, these interactions create friction between casting Void Shield on allies that need shielding, allies that need Atonement, or, 99% of the time, simply on ourself to maximize the throughput of the ability.

I’d like to see changes made to how Void Shield interacts with our mastery that reduces this friction and restores some flexibility to how we want to utilize it. For example, Void Shield could be made to always benefit from mastery, perhaps at a reduced rate if some kind of tuning knob was required. This would make using it to apply a new atonement almost always the correct choice, which feels more in line with its intended place in our kit.

Given also the way Void Shield already interacts with mastery twice, first by increasing the size of the shield, and then by amplifying the atonement healing that comes from the damage it deals, some kind of specialized consideration seems warranted, if not overdue.

2 Likes

I seem to misunderstand? Is this hypothetical greater plea just a talent that increases plea healing? To me that just sounds like another shadow mend, except this time its instant!! Perhaps some clarification?

I would hate to reduce void shield for an oracle + EB spec. Maybe they could put some of the power back in the shield just for oracle via preventive measures being buffed if they lowered it baseline. They’re already fairly small shields compared to the gigantic shields we had in TWW S2. In Midnight S2 the amount of shielding compared to your health pool is probably going to be much lower than in MN S1 since we’re seeing our health go up a lot more than our healing.

If they wanted plea to be a useful button to press they could add a power word: life mechanic to it where it does more healing below a threshold. Or maybe automatically fire penance bolts at the target if you cast plea on them when they’re below 50% so it interacts with some of the spec mechanics. That would match the name better also.

The biggest problem with Plea is the “Atonement Tax”. The more Atonements you have our in your raid, the more expensive it becomes. It why for our ramp windows it was:

Archangel 》Power Word: Radiance x2 》Penance x2

If you got lucky you could use your Void Shield to hit 3 targets with Atonement, and drop the penance needed for Atonement seeding down to 1.

If we were to use plea as a button it would be:

Plea x3 》Archangel 》Power Word Radiance x2 》Penance x1

And that is assuming you can blanket the raid quick enough to push out some dps to take advantage of the Atonement. But you are going through alot of mana in the second route

While I think Plea could be the solution if they decide to continue ahead with this change to Penance (I am seriously clinging to hope that they revert it), they need to lower it down the costs of it. Currently it is more expensive than PW:Shield and we are told to be extremely stingy on that.

(Editted to remove false information regarding Plea Mana Costs)

What are you talking about ? Plea has a static mana cost. Your sequences are also odd, but Ill give you the benefit of the doubt thats its a simplified abridged version.

Nope, you are correct. I was under the impression this was the same Plea that we had in Legion. I needed to be called out on that one.

You have it right my friend. Within the framework of pruning classes in Midnight, I believe Blizzard is more likely to repurpose an existing spell, rather than add another ability to press. For example, Shadow Mend, Void Shield, and Benediction altered existing abilities in the kit, rather than create a separate button. I would argue these abilities are indicative of a pattern or logic by Blizzard. “Greater” plea would follow that same logic in my mind and, ideally deliver a mid-range cooldown.

Circling back, yes – just like shadow mend, because I think that check’s all the same boxes for Blizzard.

With all of this feedback and concern for how much power is going into void shield, the lack of patch notes, is concerning.

Honestly, that may be for the best given some of the recent changes. Blizzard nuked Inescapable Torment and now Shadow Mend, leaving us with just Void Shield spam. I think we will be lucky if atonement makes it.

This doesn’t solve any problems though, just adds confusion on whether to press ‘greater plea’ or shadow mend. They fill the exact same role. Would rather have vitality conduit minor essence (passive effect) than a second shadow mend. Then again, vitality conduit is one of my favorite spells of all time so thats not saying much.

That’s an entirely fair concern. I just think Blizzard has boxed themselves in as a result of the pruning.

I quit BFA early, and so I never experienced Vitality Conduit. It sounds great.

Great changes to greater smite today by increasing the duration. But the talent node itself is still in the exact same spot as it is on live and locked behind the same nodes, one being a 2 point node.

Some feedback after mythic raid testing.

Overall :

  1. UP feels better after last buff but still has very long CD. UP still has the pre planning problem. U need to know where u need to press it and save PWR charges for it.
  2. Atonement duration feels good in Oracle and not good in VW. Would be nice to see longer duration baseline or longer duration from PWR.
  3. Greater Smite is bad. 2sec buff had “any other spell cast = lose buff” problem. 4sec buff have " cast smite every 2nd or 3rd global" problem( I had 90% buff uptime during raid tests and 1min+ 2stacks uptime in a row. It is very annoying gameplay). I hope u will change it to something like “every 2nd smite deals 50% more dmg” or cycle style buff without duration or change it completly.
  4. Pets base dmg feels very bad. U buffed spells but forgot about pets. Pets deals dmg only with IT and now u nerfed it. Pets deals shadow dmg but Abyssal Reverie doesnt increase pet dmg transfer.
  5. Void shield reflect. In s1 only Dragons boss have issue with immune source of dmg so u lose dmg and healing bc of it. In s2 a lot of bosses have it. Its very weird to have Apex talent that can randomly cut in half on some bosses. I hope u will change it in some way so it will work fine on all bosses. Reflect deals shadow dmg but Abyssal Reverie doesnt increase dmg transfer. Occultist talent doesnt work with VS (other talents that increase healing work with it)
  6. Disc priest has a bit mana problems (mostly Oracle) and the only way to fix it is Shadowfiend execute window. Its very weird if the only way to sustain mana is to have execute targets or u will be 0 mana. I hope u will reduce SF effect and gives a bit more manasustain in non-execute window.
  7. SWD in voidweaver. Void infusion (75% more tranfer from Smite and Penance) makes SWD absolutly useless during rift. U have rift open most of the time with new set. I hope u will add SWD to this talent too.
  8. Shadow mend already has downsinde(dmg part) and now u gave it another one (huge manacost) and make talent for it that gives more downsides. Its very weird.
  9. Spec tree still has a lot of undertune and useless talents like Sactuary. Or why we have 2 swp spread talents?
4 Likes

Am happy with lots of the upcomming changes but wondering if we can get expanded shield status information to the base UI - so we can track the status of PW shield/Void shield and other absorbs properly.

( it currently just shows a white bar at the right of the health bar when there is any absor, even ones that are not mine, and that makes it hard to see if it is a 10k absorb or 200k absorb.

Popping in to say I dislike penance not putting up atonement anymore. Small thing but meh