FEEDBACK: Brewmaster Monk changes

In Development Ghosts of K'aresh PTR
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Have one on the regular forums but wanted to start this one for all brewmaster feedback/discussion

Bugs
List of bugs that I know of (feel free to add more so I can include it, also will report them all on ptr

Niuzao summoned from Call to Arms does not cast Stomp when you use purifying brew

Niuzao’s Resolve is only counting 1 healing sphere for its total healing

Flurry Strike fizzling still exists, this can happen when a target dies, when you proc flurry strike on a newly pulled pack and im sure other conditions as well

Tier Sets

From initial testing Shado-pan is the clear winner in AoE, MoH was quite strong on ST but will have to see in real testing environments

Talent Rework

Haste Scaling Still no resolution to the haste scaling issue, would like a change similar to the windwalker one and use press the advantage as the catalyst for that and move it up in the tree

Face Palm change is fantastic and exactly what we needed for that.

Celestial Infusion is an interesting concept, smoothed out damage intake instead of a bulky shield so far I think the idea is good but need m+ to get accurate testing.

Niuzao is doing big damage atm, not sure if bugged or not

Niuzao’s Resolve Is currently bugged and is only giving a hot based on 1 orb regardless of how many consumed, this needs to be a stacking buff or accumulate all the orbs you’re consuming

Zen State Good replacement for zen med, just overall a better talent

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I am really upset about Brewmaster changes. Don’t get me wrong, I am happy to get at least some good changes, but it’s by far not what I hoped for.

BRM needs huge changes for decades now and all we get is 3 new talents and some redesigned talents.

We need a rework of our base kit, not more talents we can’t choose because we have 30 must have talents…

At the same time, the Prot Warrior is being completely reworked, with the reasoning:
“Many of Protection Warrior’s talents in each gate provide either key capabilities or powerful bonuses that make those talents ‘locked in’. As a result, Protection Warrior builds don’t change much in different situations or based on personal preferences.”

It’s really annoying.

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I agree we need more of a core rework, this is more of just a talent touch up and doesn’t exactly change much. I’d love to see a mastery rework, i feel like our mastery is very mid

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If we could not waste 5 talent points to make Dave a decent pick, that would be great.

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agreed, atm hes worth picking with just the 1 point. damage is quite good so thats always nice, just sucks his other talents are mid and the extra cc is locked behind so many points

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I don’t want to lose Zen Med. I know it has niche use cases and currently has pathing that makes it mandatory, but I have too many good memories attached to the spell.

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Their bjggest crime is not updating those two Ox Stance Capstone talents. I don’t understand why the “Trigger on hits that are 40% of current HP” isn’t just a choice node with the 60% one

Also, Spinning Crane kick should get some buffs so that people actually press it in AOE consistently. Maybe add it to blackout combo

“Spinning Crane Kick deals X% more damage per enemy hit, up to X%”

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agreed they are horrible, id rather just have dance of chi-ji instead of ox stance

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I agree with a lot of what has already been said, but I wanted to add my own feedback.
I come from an almost strictly M+ mindset and so my feedback will be tailored for that content in mind.

Can we make some of these talents, including some class talents, baseline?

For example, why not either make the black ox statue baseline for Brew or just remove it? Why is it so far down in the class tree to begin with? It is such a frustrating talent - you have black ox statue, but not to be confused with Nizu, the Black Ox. My opinion, remove the class tree talent or make it baseline for those that want to use it - or bake it into the actual Brew kit.

Class tree: Why can’t some of these healing sphere talents just be baseline? Like August Blessing, just bake that into the baseline kit and stop making us waste or potentially waste points with that.

The pathing overall just needs work. I would love to take some Nizu taents, but like others have stated - why are we wasting so many points on this playstyle? Not to mention it seems impossible to get some left side talents and right side talents at the same time - it seems like I am giving up a lot of talents to make Nizu “come online”.

Faceplam is cool and all - but again, it’s way on the far right side with only one linking talent. So that means I have to take all the other talents before it. Can we just please get better talent links?

We need M+ for further testing, obviously. But this “rework” so far is nothing but adding a few talents that produces even more bloat in the talent tree. A lot of these talents can be baseline for Brew. Stagger talents can be linked better/closer together with a reduce talent point cost.

I’m glad they’re looking into Brew, but I just believe we need more.

If you want flavor, why not add an optional talent to adjust RoP or Leg Sweep? Add something that pulls them in, like Sigil of Chains? Allow Nizu to pulse and force enemies toward the statue - something similar but unique to Brew?

Why not add a BR or Lust to Monk?
It just seems like without a unique reason to bring Brew, they’re still going to be less favored in M+ content. I don’t care about lore reasons why or why not - or lore flavor or anything like that.
Make the class desirable without adding button bloat and senseless pathing.
Mystic Touch, Leg sweep, RoP, etc., are not enough to streamline Brew nor does it help it contend for upper content.

We all know Brew can do it - and for the vast majority of players it’s fine and they can do their weeklies while also having players who can push it to the highest keys, etc.
But I don’t want to feel like I am giving up control/viability just for the sake of " I wanna play Brew" .

Hopefully, they will continue to adjust and I am sure they will.

Here’s to hoping they improve and build upon their ideas.

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Agreed I think each specs statue should be baseline and tbh all the celestials should be baseline, only exception being chi-ji because it is a transformation.

August blessing is kind of niche so i understand it not being baseline, stuff like speccing into breath of fire is very silly though.

Facepalm could definitely be higher up and I just hate counterstrike tbh.

they were trying with the new ox knock talent but its just too many points, idk why they want us to spend 4-5 points for it. RoP used to be a silence/pacify to mobs in the circle so just change it back to that and let it attach on players. Leg sweep could have a knock down effect which would be an opposite of the shockwave talent colossus arms warriors have (knock down vs knock up) and it would be a 2 in one CC and would circumvent stun dr’s which is really nice.

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Please change Weapons of Order so that it’s a self buff and not a stacking debuff. Imagine the uproar if prot pal have to stack their Avenging Wrath. 1st stack for extra holy power on Judgment, 2nd stack for increased healing, 3rd stack for crit change, 4th stack for more damage.
Yes WoO it lasts longer and deals more damage and can be extended to ~40 sec, but it feels terrible when it has to be stacked.

I too, also concur the talent points required for Niuzao is too high, and, again, imagine how the paladin or DH forums would react if Lay on Hands or Guardian of the Acient Kings or Fel Devastation is locked behind 4 talents to be fully functional. 5 if we include pathing node that leads into it.

If that’s all the changes in store for Brewmaster, then I’m sorry to say this buts it’s just plain unimaginative and lazy band aid masked as a rework.

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Feels like a situation where the person doing the rework hasn’t put a lot of playtime into it. Need someone to sit down, and try to run a key at around the 16+ range. Do some on the lower end. Do a few raid bosses. Make them do it with pugs too who aren’t just other designers/QA testers with hundreds if not thousands of hours of playtime. THen go play prot warrior, vdh, guardian druid etc on live and compare their experience.

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I would actually be okay with that style of RoP.

August Blessing is niche, I agree - but with Celestial Fortune already there - just bake it in with Fortune. Just remove that as a possible talent.

*Shuffle - why are we speccing into this and why is just off by itself? Just make Shuffle baseline.

*Quick Sip - Really? Again. Why. This could easily be baked into the Shuffle mechanic or baked into another talent.

*RJW and SD - Blizzard needs to look into this. If RJW was an automatic thing based on another ability, I would enjoy that much more. Or if it lasted longer - was an aura, even. If I could just click this on and leave it for my key - I would love it. To me, this is an iconic Brew ability and I want to use it - but I’m not adding another button to my bar that persists for 7.3 seconds. I don’t want to waste a global on that when I’m concerned with all the other stuff going on with Brew.

*Elixir of Determination - I think this could be combined with other talents or made baseline for Brew.

There are many others that I’m sure we’ll discuss at some point - but there are plenty of talents that could be combined and shuffled around. And like you said, why am I even talenting into BoF? Or even Purifying Brew - like the spec doesn’t even work without PB. Why is that not baseline? lol

For Brew - why not just make Nizu baseline and then add the flavor talents for it, without making it cost 5 talent points to come online. Like, why is Walk with the Ox 2 points? Lol. And Improved Nizu, just make that a baseline function of Nizu.

I think we would all agree it seems like we’re being punished in such a way that we have to spend so many points for very little gain. Abilities that should be baseline for the specializations are talent points, talent points that should be combined, and just the sheer amount of bloat. It just seems they’ve spread out so many different playstyles in the tree that it makes it difficult to even adhere to a specific playstyle.

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baking it into CF makes sense they are cut from the same cloth pmuch

speccing into shuffle is a crime LMAO, i feel like replacing purifying brew and shuffle at the top of the tree w/ blackout combo and breath of fire, both of them are spec defining and you can’t spec out of either blackout combo or breath of fire and the spec really just doesnt feel complete without either atm.

would be so easy to just tie it into blackout combo, complete 1-2 combos and proc RJW for 8 secs

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I’d argue they need to pug a 17 or 18 minimum to really know how it feels in the high end key range.
Current tire bosses are a breeze, but last tier, mythic Rasha’nan to be exact, is a royal pita to tank as a brew, I almost had to power level an alt tank just to prog that over grown flying lobster.

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That’s something I forgot to mention: Blackout Combo.
I agree that baking in RJW into Blackout Combo would be so nice. And it also needs to more accessible. This would be a nice change.

Spirit of the Ox - I feel like this is a left over talent/system from previous versions. It could also be baseline/combined with another talent that also plays off RSK.

Talents like Staggering Strikes or Tranquil Spirit, etc., why? Lol. It’s just senseless talents that are just there for filler or pathing. All these other talents that are like, do x and lower stagger by x amount - put those together or remove them. You have Purifying Brew, you don’t need all these filler talents that are not taken by the majority.

I know I keep saying add things baseline - but I do honestly believe it would not break the game to create a strong foundation baseline for each specialization and give the base tools to them. Talents should augment existing foundations and then add one or two extra abilities for x gain. Something that combines the effects and augments them into a streamline system. Talents that buff x or augment x and then you take a capstone that combines all of it. Other classes have made steps in this direction and now would be a good time for Brew.

I also agree with reworking Mastery - it’s nearly useless. Blizzard knows this.
We stack Crit/Vers. We have for many expansions now. I don’t want talents that for some reason buffs my mastery. If you want mastery talents, change the mastery. No one is out here stacking mastery.

Also, Ox Stance - how we feeling about this being so far down / in general?

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I feel brew’s biggest issues that needed addressed have really not been covered in this minor refresh.

(1) Utility - Brew has fallen too far behind the other tanks in utility. If the Niazao knockup talent is viable to get to and can be relied upon for 1-2 knockups per pack, this would do a lot to catch us up. ROP should be powered up, ideally through a choice node. The idea of allowing it to silence or do more to help stack the mobs is good. Heck, give us two charges of it also. Leg sweep and ROP were once considered some of the best tank utility but between nerfs (leg sweep stun duration) and power creep on other tanks, they have fallen to become the worst utility pack of all six tanks.

(2) Gather / threat: Keg smash radius is too small. Keg smash should be able to hit all mobs in a pack when you are working to gather. It’s very frustrating to commit your iconic ability to tag a pack and have two of the mobs immediately run straight at the healer. Brew has had the worst gather of all six tanks for quite a while and really could use some help here. SCK being unviable in all target counts and the trend to drop RJW makes this even more brutal. Compare our ranged tagging ability (CJL) to every other tank… All of the others have either no resource or CD, actually do damage, hit multiple mobs, or all three…

I think the rework has the potential to make Brew look nice briefly by making it super tanky or do huge damage, but these things are fleeting… A few complaints and one tuning pass away from putting brew right back where it has been living for most of the last four years for dungeon content - dead last. The fundamental changes would go a long way in making the tank more playable.

Also… The aoe cap only applying to physical dps but, for some reason, never applied to wizards also hurts brew. AOE cap should be applied to mage, shadow priest, boomkin, warlock, or just remove it from everyone.

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Also consider Brew is the only tank with a true melee ranged interrupt as our only option. If Brew has to live with this we should at least get the shortest CD or a longer lockout.

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Give it the multiple can overlap treatment like iron fur imo.

So many brewmaster talents need to be made baseline and removed. The talents need a rework.

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Does Celestial Infusion count as a Brew for the CD reduction effects? I would assume yes but it is ambiguous.