It’s probably more a problem with holy’s mastery than with spell power. Echo of Light has always sucked but so long as it exists it’s going to steal upfront healing from your spells.
Yeah, I don’t really buy that, because Echo of Light is barely different from any other healer’s mastery. Almost every healer, meta or not, has a mastery that basically says “% healing increase”
And in almost all cases, it’s not really even situational. MNK and Pally are the only two that don’t have pretty much 100% effective mastery.
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Take that 30% or whatever mastery you have and treat it like everyone else’s mastery and look how much larger the direct heals are. That very clearly shows the spell power problems are related to the mastery working in a completely different way to every other healers mastery buffing direct casts at the time they land not 6s later.
EoL isn’t 100% efficient healing and isn’t expected to be. Just like every other healer’s mastery isn’t 100% efficient and isn’t expected to be.
I’m saying they could buff our SP, especially on our filler spells and it would make very little difference even without changing mastery.
The dangerous spells to buff are those that don’t really need it.
Some stuff you could group together:
Shadow/Disc:
Mindbender, Inescapable Torment, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Shadow Word: Pain, Mindgames, Schism/Void Torrent
Shadow/Holy:
Voidform/Dark Ascension/Apotheosis, Holy Word:X /Shadow Word: X
Disc/Holy
Flashheal, Renew, Holy Nova, Power Word: Shield, Smite, Prayer of Healing/Power Word: Radiance
All:
Divine Star/Halo, Holy Fire/Mind Blast, Power Infusion
Adding new/old button(s):
Boon of the Ascended
Possible assignments to the known hero specs:
Oracle: Holy Word: X, Shadow Word: X, Power Word: X
Archon: Boon of the Ascended, Apotheosis/Voidform/Dark Ascension, Power Infusion
Voidweaver: Mindbender, Inescapable Torment, Mindblast, Mindgames, Void Torrent/Schism
Like I posted above: I’m highly skeptical that each path is going to viable for every spec. Holy, Disc, and Shadow will have their predominant primary paths with no real reason to swap between the others unless they plan on booting things like Mind Games out of the Priest General Tree into the Voidweaver.
Think of them like expanded spec talent trees instead. Normally in expansions you get a new row or two of talents. Well, that’d be kind of boring because you’d only get an extra 5 talent points to spend in each tree.
So they have to do this big fancy new sub-spec system which in reality is just extended versions of our current trees in a more easily balancable setting.
I think that might be thinking about hero classes backwards, we saw a decent amount of divergence in the impact of talents depending on spec in the showcase.
Obviously this is conjecture but the way I’d frame it to help work out what I want each of these talents to be is to actually swap the order around. Instead of going “class, spec, hero class” go “Class, hero class, spec”. How would a void weaver use their powers through the lens of discipline, how would an archon use their powers to do damage?
If you see them as themes to be explored by specs, instead of bridges that exist between two specs, they make a lot more sense.
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I mean yea… Technically they are just talents… it’s called Hero talents
But that doesn’t mean they can’t work on specific themes to add more fantasy to a class which I think is the goal with these extra talents, add a bit of flavour to the classes, not big gameplay changes.
Elune’s chosen for balance druid had really cool moon effects on some of their abilities. Or some passives that added more visuals. I think this is cool and the direction.
I wouldn’t mind having some cool passives that make holy priest look cooler. Something like “chanel divine hymn summons 3 divine images naarus and cast X ability through the whole thing” that kinda stuff adds to the class fantasy and you can add it in a “hero talent”
Going this route for future updates now allows a full horizontal progression and avoid vertical progression.
They can just add a single or multiple different Hero Talent sets that each explore some new theme that allows a specific set of talents that can cater to a specific theme/fantasy.
So I’m a big fan of that actually. This means they can dial in the perfect base kit and then just focus on and explore additional themes without interfering with existing theme balancing.
Be interesting how this ends up and what approach they take when adding more at a later date.
It’s not a good long-term solution though.
If the plan is to add a whole new talent tree every expansion… imagine the bloat by 2030.
I don’t think that would be the approach. That sounds and feels forced.
I think it’s a “we heard you guys want your class/spec to do x, well in this update we are adding this x theme to the options to pick from on that class/spec”
Meaning the already realized themes and class/spec talents wouldn’t need to change.
They just add another theme where maybe you had a choice of 2 Hero Paths before, now you get another choice for a total of 3 Hero paths.
This can be added as needed and not be a big forced addition across every class/spec combo.
So it won’t and doesn’t need to go the route of SL Covenants where every class had 4 different Covenant abilities created and feel like some are just added to fill a quota and leave it at that.
So these can just be slowly added as a theme/fantasy grows enough to justify a dedicated Hero Path.
This would allow solid Hero Paths to stay the same and those players that enjoy that path are not distributed while when a new hero path options becomes available, another group of players can take choose that and neither hero path will alter or change or cross over another.
They are each self contained.
Just as long as we get a solid class and spec tree build out.
It’s like the PvP talent system now.
You have a pool of talents but only 3 you can pick to use.
So with Hero Paths, most will have 2 choices and you pick 1. But periodically another choice will become available without changing or interfering with the previous Hero Path options.
I think they understand that. They’ve mentioned that a few times with the base talent trees as we move into new expansions.
I guess the question is how do you keep it interesting and new without borrowed power or endlessly stacking systems.
We don’t want a great pruning again like WOD and definitely don’t want borrowed power at its height in BFA.
When we get to Midnight we’ll find out I suppose.
I think the better question to ask is how do they prevent button bloat becoming a problem. The new trees would have to be mostly passive talents, otherwise adding 1-3 more buttons to each spec is going to stretch things a bit.
I’m just skeptical on the system and will need to see what it looks like in the beta.
If I were to wager a guess…
I would say that each Hero Path tree would come with a choice ability that is an active ability (at most only 1 if any at all). Then have the rest of the talents modify either your preexisting class and spec talents and core/spec spells and abilities or the single new active ability that is contained in the Hero Path talent tree.
But as you say, we can only speculate and will have to wait for further information and clarification.
Can always be actives that replace current spells as well.
honestly, this worries me a lot for the priest class as well.
They have this much trouble with what we have. I hope hey are able to overcome it this time.
this will be interesting.
Did I misread or hear? I thought that hero talents were akin to slands covenants on release in that you pick one and stick with it. Can we swap them at will like regular talents?
You can swap them whenever.
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They specifically called out that they won’t function like Slands covenants.
In the examples they gave, they’re basically subclasses that focus on specific aspects or spells of the class. IE: If you want to focus on nature spells (and treants) you go keeper of the grove versus the astral spells you go Chosen of Elune.
Though I do think there’s a chance with what they’ve explained that all of these paths are going to be heavily indexed on one spell shared by two specs.
IE: Priest voidweaver might be heavily based around SW:P or Mind Blast (and interacting with it) where Oracle might be based mostly on PW:S, etc.
Example of a new spell for each Priest Hero Path Talents
Archon/Oracle/Voidweaver (All specs)
- Starting ability for all Priest Hero Paths
- Included for all specs because its core to AOE gameplay.
- Located in Hero Path talents because its too powerful for low level/leveling content.
Holy/Discipline/Shadow shared talents
- Cascade (All Priests Hero Paths starts with this new Active ability)
- Beginning Hero Path talent
- (Holy/Discipline)
Launch a Holy bolt that grows in power with distance, healing an ally and then bouncing to additional allies 4 times. Each time it bounces, it splits into 2 bolts. - (Discipline/Shadow)
Launch a Shadowy bolt that grows in power with distance, damaging an enemy and then bouncing to additional enemies 4 times. Each time it bounces, it splits into 2 bolts.
- (Holy/Discipline)
- Beginning Hero Path talent
- Cascading Power (Cascade changes into Dark Cascade with Shadow Covenant)
- Ending Hero Path talent
- Holy
- Cascade refreshes the duration of your Renew and Prayer of Mending charges on its targets.
- Discipline
- Cascade refreshes the duration of your Renew on its targets.
- Dark Cascade refreshes the duration of your Shadow Word: Pain on its targets.
- Shadow
- Dark Cascade refreshes the duration of your Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain on its targets.
- Holy
- Ending Hero Path talent
OR
- Cascading Power (Cascade changes into Dark Cascade with Shadow Covenant)
- Ending Hero Path talent
- Holy
- Cascade applies your Renew and refreshes Prayer of Mending charges to its targets.
- Discipline
- Cascade applies your Renew to its targets.
- Dark Cascade applies your Shadow Word: Pain to its targets.
- Shadow
- Dark Cascade applies your Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain to its targets.
- Holy
- Ending Hero Path talent
Note:
- Shadow Crash is currently the spell used for Shadow to apply Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain to multiple targets at the same time with Whispering Shadows and Misery synergy.
- The problem is that Holy and Discipline do not have a way to spread their Renew to multiple targets at the same time, but it would be a great hero talent to achieve that and Cascade would be a great fit for such an application.
- Would like Cascade for dot application or refresh for Shadow as Shadow Crash is a very problematic spell due to its targeting the ground instead of targets nature which leads to further frustration with x axis obstructions and targets moving out of range in both solo and group content.
So not sure best path forward to resolve this issue.
So here are some examples that I think would be interesting for Shadow Priest Archon Hero Path…
Archon (Shadow)
- Non-Periodic Damage focus
Passive Path Aura
Your Shadow spells can now generate up to (5) Shadow Orbs and deal additional damage when consuming Shadow Orbs.
DPS Talents
-
Orbs of Shadow
Your Shadowy Apparitions generate a Shadow Orb when they strike a target.
Your Mind Blast and Mind Spike consume all Shadow Orbs, increasing their damage by 50% per Shadow Orb consumed.
(Choice) -
Orbs of Darkness
Your Mind Blast and Shadow Word: Death now generate an Shadow Orb when they strike a target.
Your Devouring Plague can affect more than one target at a time and consumes up to 3 Shadow Orbs dealing 100% more damage per Shadow Orb consumed. -
Deaths Release
Shadow Word: Death deals damage as if the target is below 20% health while under the effects of Dark Ascension. -
Cycle of Death
Your Shadow Word: Death cooldown is reduced by 50% while under the effects of Dark Ascension. -
Deaths Reach
Your Shadow Word: Death strikes 2 additional nearby targets while under the effects of Dark Ascension. -
Echos of Death
Your Shadow Word: Death triggers 2 additional times at 20% effectiveness. -
Dark Embrace
Your Non-Periodic damage critical strikes extend the duration of Dark Ascension by 1 second. -
Maniac
Mind Spike cast time is reduced by 50% after you critically strike with Mind Blast for the next 3 seconds. -
Dark Archon
Your Shadow Word: Pain periodic damage grants you Dark Archon [buff], increasing the damage of your next Shadow Word: Death by 10%. Stacking up to 5. -
Blood Archon
Your Vampiric Touch periodic damage grants you Blood Archon [buff] increasing the damage of your next Devouring Plague spell by 5% and heals your group for 20% of the damage dealt. Stacking up to 5. -
Death Throes
Your Mind Spells deal 10% more damage for 6 seconds when you critically strike with Shadow Word: Death. Stacking up to 3. -
Tormented Wraith
You have a 50% chance to spawn a Wraith when your Shadow Word: Death deals damage to a target below 20% health and 100% chance when you land a killing blow. Lasting for 15 seconds.- Tormented Wraiths charge at your enemies cleaving with Wraith Strike [cone attack] inflicting them with Reapers Mark. Reapers Mark increases the chance for your non-periodic damage to critically strike by 5% and your critical strike damage bonus by 10% for 10 seconds, stacking up to 3.
Archon (Holy/Shadow)
- Psychic Leaning theme
Talents
- Intertwining Fates
Your Twist of fate increases your damage and healing done by an additional 10%. - Words of Twilight
When your Holy Word spells heals a friendly target, the damage the target takes is reduced by 10% for 5 seconds.
When your Shadow Word spells damage an enemy target, the damage the target inflicts is reduced by 10% for 5 seconds.
(Choice) - Praying for Death
When Prayer of Mending is bounced from Shadow Word: Death backlash damage, your damage and healing is increased by 10% for 8 seconds. - Psionic Energy
- Holy: Healing done from your Holy Word spells generate a stack of Psionic Energy. Reaching 20 stacks fill you with power and causing you to erupt, dealing pulse healing to your allies within 20 yards every second for 3 seconds.
- Shadow: Damage dealt by your Shadow Word spells generate a stack of Psionic Energy. Reaching 20 stacks causes the next target to receive damage from your Mind Spells to erupt, dealing pulsing damage to every enemy within 20 yards every second for 3 seconds.
- Psionic Power
When Psionic Energy erupts, your Psychic Link damage and healing increases by 5% for 30 seconds. Stacking up to 3. - Psionic Force
Psionic Energy pulse deals 100% more damage and healing with each consecutive pulse.
Archon (Holy)
- More Psychic power leaning
Talents
- Psychic Link
Your single target Holy Word spells heal 25% of the healing done to targets affected by your Renew within 40 yards. - Psionic Focus
Gaining a stack of Psionic Power increases the healing of your single target healing spells and reduces the mana cost by 10% per stack. - Shadow Reflection
When an enemy strikes you or your group while your Renew is active, they become afflicted with Shadow Word: Pain, matching the same duration left of the Renew.
Here are some Voidweaver Hero Path talent ideas.
Note:
I attempted to craft these (choice) talents to be either Insanity draining / everlasting Voidform or Periodic Damage leaning.
Voidweaver (Shadow)
- Voidform draining mechanic
OR - Periodic Damage focus
Passive Path Aura
Your Shadow damage spells now generate insanity instead of consuming mana while Voidform is active.
DPS Talents
- Surender to Madness
Voidform increase your Shadow damage by 1% every second and no longer has a cooldown or duration limit but causes your Insanity to drain increasingly faster until it reaches 0 and Voidform ends.
(Choice) - Glimpse of the Void
Your Shadow Word: Pain and Vampiric Touch deal damage an additional time when Devouring Plague critically strikes. - Embrace the Void
While Voidform is active, your spells generate 100% more Insanity and can be cast while moving.
(Choice) - Mass Hysteria
Your periodic damage is increased by 2% per second while under the effects of Voidform, up to 100%. - Festering Rot
Devouring Plague can stack up to 3 times on a single target. - Dark Contagion
Your Devouring Plague can affect more than one target at a time and lasts 50% longer. - Shattered Mind
Your channeling spells deal damage 33% faster. - Abyssal Reflection
You have a 20% chance to duplicate Shadowy Apparitions spawned by your spells. - Void Corruption
Vampiric Touch radiates 10% of its damage to nearby enemy targets, Max (5). - Void Fiend
Your Shadow Fiend replicates its damage to every target afflicted with your Shadow Word: Pain and increases the periodic damage they receive by 10%. - Void Bolt
Sends a bolt of pure void energy at the enemy, causing Shadow damage and generating 10 insanity.
(Choice) - Void Ray
Your Mind Flay deals 5% more damage for each periodic damage effect on the target. - Void Eruption
Releases an explosive blast of pure void energy causing Shadow damage to all enemies within 10 yards of your target.
(Choice) - Black Hole (Perhaps a candidate to replace/compete with Shadow Crash)
Create a Black Hole in a targeted area. Enemy targets are quickly pulled towards its center, dealing increasing damage the closer they get. Touching the center stuns the target for 1 seconds. Lasts for 10 seconds.
Voidweaver (Discipline/Shadow)
- Shared Talents
Talents
- Dark Covenant
- Discipline: Smite becomes Mind Flay during Shadow Covenant and chains up to 4 additional targets, dealing 20% more damage per linked target.
- Shadow: You form a Void Covenant, causing Devouring Plague to pulse 30% of its periodic damage to nearby targets while under the effects of Voidform, Max (5).
- Mind Meld
Targets afflicted with your Shadow Word: Pain take 10% more damage from your Mind Spells.
Voidweaver (Discipline)
Talents
- Power Word: Twilight
Casting Power Word: Shield while under the effects of Shadow Covenant reduces the damage the target takes by 10%. - Twilight Equilibrium
When your Shadow Word: Pain critically strikes, 50% of the damage done gets converted into a damage absorption shield for up to 15% of your total health for 10 seconds.
Class/spec/Hero Path agnostic Utility Talents
Talents
- Horrifying Scream
Your Psychic Scream now horrifies your targets, causing your enemies unable to break the fear effect but reducing the duration by 50%.
(Choice) - Persisting Image
Your Fade effects lasts an additional 10 seconds. - Touch the Void
When cast on yourself, Your Power Word: Shield absorbs 100% more damage. You spawn Void Tendrils, rooting all targets within 8 yards when Power Word: Shield breaks from damage.
(Choice) - Shadowmend
Your Flash Heal becomes Shadowmend, increasing healing by 200% and mana cost by 100%. - Flirting with Death
Shadow Word: Death backlash damage is reversed over 6 seconds, healing you for 100% of the damage dealt. Stacking up to 3.
(Choice) - Vampiric Essence
Your Vampiric Touch heals your group for 5% of the damage done and Vampiric Embrace provides up to 10% max health damage absorption shield for your party.