It’s only unwise to spend your valor prior to getting 207/210 gear if you know you are a capable enough player to get 207 and 210 gear at all.
Someone barely doing +7s as closer to their cap can still use the valor to upgrade items. If they waited for 207/210 drops they would wait forever since they’ll never get there.
I suspect most people would agree with this statement. It being 1000 valor to upgrade isn’t so much of a problem, it’s that when you do this on a lower tier item it burns up your cap. Also, if you play one spec for half the season and decide you want to switch, you’re also limited if you spent a bunch of valor on the other spec.
I have a bunch of gear chilling in my bags that I could upgrade, but I probably won’t because as soon as I do, you know a better item will come along and wheeeeeeelp, what are you gonna do?
The core system is a great idea and I support it, but the needless cap slapped on top for seemingly no reason is very frustrating.
Here’s the scenario. I get KSM on my main who is fully geared. I level a fresh alt to 60 and run low M+2 and spam it. Since I already have KSM, I can upgrade my fresh toon to full 220.
It defeats the gearing progression way ahead of the PvP and Raiding counterpart. There needs to be a cap to make M+ gearing in competition with Raids and PvP, but not so far ahead of it.
You’re talking about a scenario of first unlocking X, then gearing an alt through a process that will involve literally hundreds of runs worth of time and effort. It’s even plausible this will be orders of magnitude slower than simply doing Mythic+ normally.
I can’t think of a scenario where a person who can do KSM will opt to do this on their alt, as opposed to at least getting into the +10 range which they’re naturally going to be competent for, and cut down on the time/effort required massively (so basically earning a small freebie around the 213/220 jump, which hey fair enough, it is an alt).
This isn’t really defeating any progression, especially if you’re comparing to raiding, where alts tend to get brought in through farm content for easy loot which is much simpler and easier.
The actual reason for a cap is simply that they want to limit rate of access to loot over time. If Mythic+ can only guarantee a 226 from Vault, and get ~1 piece of gear per week to upgrade on average, they’ll consider it mirrored to the (perhaps) expected drop rate of getting ~1 226 raid piece per full Mythic raid clear, and 1 226 guaranteed from Vault. They want people to take as long as possible to get gear, so that they don’t consider themselves “done” with a patch’s content until the next patch is ready. ATM, this is the pace they feel will achieve that.
Doing this with the current valor system would take you about 2 years. Upgrading a single piece of gear with Valor from 187-220 would take 6 full weeks of valor cap.
Someone who levels an alt can easily get 197 ilvl gear from the covenant. With that gear they can easily run a M+10 or higher to get the base item. Afterwards, they spam run +2s for the valor points.
I forgot to mention that they can get a high level upgradeable first.
Ok, if that’s the case you’re proposing, here’s the rough outline:
After first doing an achievement that proves they’re good enough as a player to be “worthy” of 220 caps (not even 226 in its current design), they get the option on their alt to skip one achievement threshold and push 2 ranks past the 213 cap to 220 - if they’re getting a full set of 203 gear from M+10, they’re probably naturally going to get Keystone Conqueror depending on the spread of viable loot drops, so that gap is the only actual difference you’re talking about. On top of that, these 220 pieces would still be outclassed by 226 gear from the Great Vault.
This would be if they wanted to invest ~6,075 Valor points (7,075 for Fury Warriors, I think technically ~5,800 for 1h/shield tanks) per rank, which is what it costs to upgrade every slot. At 135 Valor/run, that’s 45 runs* for the one rank of upgrades alone, to get gear that isn’t even best in slot and will potentially be replaced by Vault gear (providing they keep playing that alt). To go from the base 203 to 220, that’s 5 ranks so 30k Valor points ish, or 225 runs.
This isn’t even counting the many, many +10 runs they will have had to do to get all the pieces that are even worth upgrading. I feel like we can safely assume that if they are getting a valid +10 in every slot, they’re going to have also run a good 50-100 +10 runs for the required RNG on the drops, wouldn’t you say? Of course, they will have earned Valor for those runs, so that’s fewer +2 runs, but the overall run count remains the same as far as required Valor goes, so still 225 runs of Valor.
You can minus the runs in which they get GV gear as a result of +10 runs, since that’s going to be ilvl220 or more, but obviously in that case there’s no “benefit” applying, so it’s narrowing down any potential idea of “defeating progression” to fewer slots, and probably not actually making a meaningful effect on gearing that character at all to begin with.
At this point, I have to ask “So what?”. This hypothetical player is trading naturally just getting to +15’s (which they should be plenty capable of), to sink potentially a couple hundred runs of time to get inferior gear; being capped at a max of 220 as opposed to getting at least SOME 226 if they can be doing +14’s. And all of this gear becomes obsolete at the next Season. And this is all for one alt.
Sounds like a lose-lose proposition; I certainly wouldn’t choose this for my alt.
*Callings are also a thing, but they’re timegated to around 40 Valor/day on average so relatively irrelevant to this, feel free to knock that down to 40 runs if you want
Yeah, it’s definitely going to be a grind lol. Also, depending on the piece it might not take that many runs. A few pieces I needed dropped within 5 runs and the most I’ve had to run for the Blood-splattered Scale was 25 runs. However, I do know some people have had to run more than that.
Point being, yes it will be a huge grind, but you can get full 220 if there was no valor cap much faster than raids or pvp.
That’s roughly why I left it at ~50-100 total for the runs it’d take to get every slot. Some drops are going to be elusive, some will drop first time, and some are going to be clustered in the same dungeon, for some classes they’ll be spread around so you can’t be as efficient. I figured it was easier to drop a tentative number like that and go “Does this sound roughly about right?”.
But as I said, that doesn’t change the Valor equation, it remains at 225 dungeons for the requisite Valor - it just shifts how many of them are +10’s and how many are +2’s. All of those figured above assume every item drops at 203 (+10) to begin with.
I really really doubt that tho. Even at ~20 runs/week, which is a LOT especially considering this is your alt so you’d be doing whatever on your main as a priority, 225 runs would take 11 weeks. Most players I know would quit rather than put themselves through all of that for an alt. They’d just do the +15’s if they actually wanted to gear the alt.
11 weeks of farm content in Mythic raids could quite possibly be straight up faster.
If you drop that to 10 runs/week, that’s 22 weeks of grinding, which will basically get you to the point where all your gear gets replaced by the next season.
Sosari I can’t imagine being so fried that someone would log on and defend a blizzard system in the year of our lord 2021 LOL. Wild stuff man.
Not sure what that even means.
Yes, 11 weeks with the assumption of zero weekly vault drops. They will be pretty much guaranteed upgrades for the first several weeks which will significantly lower the total amount of runs required.
It means you waste your time defending bad game design on a game forum. Valor = poorly implemented it’s that simple
You’re adding nothing to this discussion at least Darielle is actually bringing up points.
The point of forums is to have a discussion. If everyone agreed, there would be no point.
No. The forum is specially only to complain into an endless, unspeakably dark void while we pay money for a bad game. That’s it.
Keep inserting yourself into threads by starting off with personal attacks and adding nothing of substance. Imagine that.
Kthx bye done with you.
What personal attacks? Also it’s my thread LOL
Well, no, they won’t. They’ll be guaranteed some 220 loot (assuming they’re doing some +10 every week), which might be inferior to the upgraded 220 item that they’re “farming” for. If you’re assuming they’ll be happy settling for the first crappy 220 that they get (as opposed to targetting items like Scale), that’s shifting the goalpost a bit.
Doing Mythic Raids also awards 226 Vault gear, which I wasn’t even factoring into the equation. And if we’re applying the “anything goes” standard, we should do that to raid as well, so sure you might bring that down to 8 weeks of 20+ runs, but are you still outpacing 8 weeks of farm mode raid loot? I think not.
And I covered the GV aspect already up there:
You can minus the runs in which they get GV gear as a result of +10 runs, since that’s going to be ilvl220 or more, but obviously in that case there’s no “benefit” applying, so it’s narrowing down any potential idea of “defeating progression” to fewer slots, and probably not actually making a meaningful effect on gearing that character at all to begin with.
Or to put it another way, GV loot stands outside the equation since that’s just loot that would’ve happened naturally regardless of Valor upgrades or not.
I have not raided much this expansion at all. How far will a 200 ilvl get in Mythic CN?
In general, minus trinkets and rings, ilvl trumps secondary stats. In those cases, I wouldn’t necessarily consider it settling. A 220 ilvl will be a big upgrade regardless of stats compared to a 197/200ilvl. Even if it’s replacing a 210.
Yea, it happens regardless, but it also directly impacts your equation of how many weeks of farming it will take. So I thought it was still valid to bring up.
I think you might have missed this bit:
After first doing an achievement that proves they’re good enough as a player to be “worthy” of 220 caps (not even 226 in its current design), they get the option on their alt to skip one achievement threshold and push 2 ranks past the 213 cap to 220 - if they’re getting a full set of 203 gear from M+10, they’re probably naturally going to get Keystone Conqueror depending on the spread of viable loot drops, so that gap is the only actual difference you’re talking about.
Basically your entire premise is not talking about alts that are 200 ilvl vs alts that are ~220, it’s comparing alts that are naturally going to have a mix of 213/220 to alts that might have full 220.
The more you weigh that to the 220’s from the GV as opposed to loot drops, the less anything is “altered”, so the less anything is being “affected”.
I have not raided much this expansion at all. How far will a 200 ilvl get in Mythic CN?
There really isn’t a limit for alts. Without bringing alts in for farm, bunches of gear will go to waste, the alts will help stack loot drops into the right hands in future tiers (especially if they have the same ilvl as mains to make the “trade” limitation go away), and they keep people from burning out.
Back in the day, I had alts that were full BiS, or were killing everything except the super end-boss of the tier, and we even occasionally had the odd alt accidentally be in for the first progression kill when we were using them to plug attendance gaps and almost ended up killing a boss we weren’t expecting to kill that night.
You bring a lot of good points. I guess with how much the items cost per upgrade and the rate of farm able valor, it wouldn’t be so off balance to un-cap it. As long as the upgrade cost and valor drop remains constant.