People only want their type of fun, and they don’t care about others fun.
Bringing back 10 man would barely do anything to their fun, but it would bring back fun for a lot of people.
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Why is there even concern about “Fights have to be fair and balanced”, if blizzard literally despawns broken bosses when one faction gets a 24 hour lead by geographic location and lament recruitment over European players with social programs advertising about how they fight over certain geographical brackets.
Players that have enough welfare and unemployment benefits (literally literally), in order to get 10-30 hour weekly gaming advantages over the part time 20 hour a week raiding people, when they can 30-60 hour a week video game and not end up on the streets to join Method and limit.
Then you retire for a couple months, the 0-10 ilvl level gear gets replaced by questing greens one xpac later, and 111s start farming 120s all over again. It’s a endless cycle. Sure to some that might be fun, but i want to try the bosses not fill out guild application and server transfer movement fees for a 3 month trial position hiring guild looking for 12/12 M experience to try 2/12 M, at that point when you turn a video game into a job it’s just not fun anymore. I ran a 300 man guild once and won speedrunning records expansion after expansion setting up our group to use trick and skips and the point when it turned into a job and we had went from casually gaming as buds to kicking irl aquaintances “They’re too bad at this game to play” or year long friends was a sour experience. Speedrunning had started off as a secondary thing and we were primarily going for community.
The speed runners started hating recruitment even though many of them starting off in the middle, saying they hurt speedrunning times by 5-50 seconds in 2 minutes timed content that was ran on farm. The game manager ignored community problems to a extreme level that makes EA look a martyr, and eventually a guild started turning to bots, hacks and automization and autofarming to farm them every bis item in the game and levels (this game had limitless levels, where it meant that every 10 levels meant +10 more damage but required triple the exp. Most players could maybe get to 130 or so, but autofarmers and botters could easily get to 150 with the most grinding humans players and blend in, or get to blatantly obvious botting 160/170 levels where they were often immediately reported and banned.
This stuff had crap tons of drama, guilds began raiding other people’s discords, people began ddosing their own replacements to kick them from the server and shut them out. DDOsing guilds started ddosing others in order to shut down their game and disconnect them from the only 2 attempts you got a month to place records. it was a absolute mustardtruck. it wasn’t fun to play the game anymore and i quickly lost enjoyment feeling like i was neglecting my irl while also feeling like i enjoyed the game less when i played it seriously than when i played it casually with my friends to have a blast.
Yet i also spent several months as a WOD feral druid systematically denied loot for months and months since it “wasn’t meta”. So you still had the 80% dps, 30% heal hybrid tax and the only real way to overcome any class shortcomings was to minmax and play a crappy pve build i loved only to get “I don’t care what your crappy spec’s parses are, i don’t care if you topped the meters with a crap class, it would have been 50% better on boomie, go play something good” speech. So, the guild fractured and i switched from hardcore mythic raiding to casual mythic raiding and they opened up spots and impromptu meetings, it was great, we had fun, but i just didn’t have the same free time after then.
So i left that game and decided i wanted to do content that was challenging and fun, push the envelope a little each time. And i did and could climb keys and compete for top meters and sims etc. Then i just hit a dead end where there’s literally nothing to really do anymore.
Ally keys rarely broke 11 or 13 a few weeks ago. Maybe the highest that will appear is a 16. No one does 18 because why on God’s earth would you want to? So… It’s just 15 and 16 keys and those were legitimately challenging a few weeks ago. But now i’m getting more used to all the depth and one shots and there’s just… nothing really easy to do. It’s like being reaching level 100 in a rpg killing the zones final boss and getting warped and stuck in a level 30 zone.
You already see how people react to being outdpsed, start playing on a casual server and watch them flip out and froth at the mouth every time you join a dungeon. It’s not fun for anyone.
Would they be different lock outs? If they are then it would become near mandatory to do both for loot.
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Sorry Wirt, I misread what you posted and I agree with that statement. So sorry about that 
Nah, i’d say don’t even let people into the other if they started one. So they can’t switch between 10 and 25 man.
Separate lockouts hasn’t been a thing since wrath (though I loved it, it’s just not feasible)
Yeah i mean it always just felt right that if you did 10 man or 25 man, you got locked out to that one for a week. 10 man ICC should lock you to 25 Man ICC, but heroic and normal still shared seperate locks. Etc.
You could do 25 man ICC H, and then join a 10 Man ICC Normal to help a friend, but you couldn’t do 25 man icc H and then 10 man ICC H for double the loot.
except it didn’t work that way at all
maybe I’m getting my expansions confused, but I’m pretty sure you could do both 10 and 25 man heroic in any given lockout.
“Most guilds”… I think I,ve explained before that the majority argument doesn’t make sense in a mythic system. It’s a content designed for a minority. It would make a big difference for guild that have as their main activity mythic raiding.
Which is a leadership problem, guilds should be constantly recruiting.
Pugs without experience knowing mechanics? Not happening for harder mythic bosses. Sure the first 3 that you do might be puggable.
Leadership problems 
They do it gladly, if you raid at that level. You care more about the raid than you “having to do stuff”.
This may be foreign to you, but there is people out there who only pug, you can get experience in a raid without being in a guild.
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Less work for the devs?
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I miss 10 man heroic too. It was so much more fun healing back then, you had a lot of responsibility and one person making a mistake was much more punishing because you didn’t have many members.
I look at the Firelands 10 man videos and I just cry. So many memories made with my small group of friends, and I still talk to most of them today. Couldn’t say the same for the 20 man teams I’ve raided with over the past few years.
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Yeah but a fair question might become. “Why is a majority of dev resources, being invested in content only a small minority of players play?” They asked and said that with Naxxaramas.
They spent all this time creating raids for each tier and level, and then when people left had to create one raid to do the part of 4 so they relied so heavily on 4 tiers of difficulty to ‘fill’ up 12 month SoO content droughts and HFC content droughts.
Not to say that i’m not disagreeing that it takes time and more dungeons could be cool, But it could also be cool having themes to cycle around from time to time. Just bring back the freshness and tedium you know? Like maybe a new tuned Timewalking dungeon to be made, M1-M15 EquivPit of Saron with skips or it’s own custom affixes. A halls of Reflection Expanded where you got to fight off against the scourge. A 5 man WOTLK wing of Ulduar or wing of ICC being made a Zul’aman like miniraid, etc.
It just feels kinda anticlimatic for all this work to go into creating new raids and then sitting back and doing nothing for months and months, maybe watching a 10k viewer stream of Method playing nothing but 15 warlocks and spriests and two brewmaster monks and no real thrill. It’s like a three color 20 man raid where the time i tuned in they were staring at Limit beating them 3 bosses ahead 11/12 M vs 8/12 M glaring at raiden and going “Okay… 257th wipe, 30 minute break guys”
I mean the mythic raiding doesn’t even give money at the end of it outside the first and it has a smaller prize pool than some 5 million dollar LoL championships. I just don’t get why they’re so die hard on trying to create a exclusionary esport out of it for the 10k viewers and a small pockful of guilds. The raiding scene is basically dead on all but 2 servers, the limited population has gotten to a point where the last remaining 13 alliance 12/12M guilds to 90 horde are either all Chinese, Oceanic, or Transfered US, and players are just forming hyper dense population clusters to just play the game.
Basically in gist i know it’s already meant to be minority, but it’s like the problem of “They want us to make content that’s exlusionary, but if we just make exclusionary content we lose all our players”, Wildstar tried to do that back when Everquest was the ‘serious’ mmo and it just died. WoW doesn’t seem to have any real direction. It’s making posts on how 30% of people don’t even have a cloak, half of them are under r7, and only 30% of people maxed it. It just seems paradoxial that it feels like 90% of new content is made fresh and new for the 10-1%-0.1% that hardcore raid. But the 90% of everyone (+ the raiders), who also do dungeons don’t get… anything new with a expac to do.
It’s like… i really loved it at first and the idea and the shedule but. Would there even be any point as a pugger to do more than one season a year. If there’s no further dungeons releasing and even high pop ally servers are dead or limited to 1-2 options. With my choices on mg a 11/12 M guild already having most of the content cleared, or a guild that already has their 20 core and just waiting for backfill?
I mean i got the 475 ilvl from M+ing and showing and making mats for everyone to get visions mats and consumables to do the visions and K’babs and potions for 470 5 masks. Which i appreciate. A wrathion sword looks cool. And plus, the first 3-4 bosses they’ve always historically were made easy to bait people in before you’d hit a ashvane. I guess i just want something to do past 30 minutes a week doing a weekly 15 chest and vendoring the last 9/10 drops from 14s. I mean, maybe titanforging was unbalanced but it always left rewards in the game. I’ve given up on infinite stars and st ess. Even if i had it or wanted to keep making the parse numbers go up a few % each day it wouldn’t ever lead anywhere. It’s just playing on a content dead end with dead end dead end and more dead ends.
TBF, Mythic doesn’t take much for resources. The raid itself over ALL difficulties gets enough play.
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Because that’s no longer a minority with LFR/normal/heroic justifying the cost of development.
If we would follow that idea they would only design mission tables and wqs because most people do those.
But don’t worry Blizzard is ahead on that with their focus being on phone games, those are way more worth their time and investment.
Making quality games is not always making a game that is playable by all. There’s a lot of niche in video game and mythic raiding is one of those. Even MMorpgs are a niche nowadays.
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The people from the top world first guilds get to talk and have their feedback heavily scrutunized. Infinite AP necks were scrapped from them not wanting to do endless grinds.
There was a point when Method and limit were watching eachother grinding endless AP over at Mechagon farming spare parts for 100 rep a crate tokens for ap. They would grind these endlessly, with the plan to turn in 100s at a time and get a paragon chest for 5k ap. The players took one look and went “Nope”, and it got hotfixed in 8.3 with a “We’ll look into that, don’t worry”
Meanwhile account essences for alts were pretty much a no until coronavirus came around. Which was a good change but it didn’t come until after in weeks after 8.3 when they were finding only about 33% of the people found the cloak. They were making “how to find the cloak” guides months later. And they still seemed to resist on account wide essences and people gave up on them until they one day appeared months after much lamentations.
Not to say that it was a unwelcome change, for sure, but it definitely feels like their words arrive first, and content is designed around the 1% playerbase for their desires for all sorts of weird stuff and then the come out with no rep badges for problems for the 1% of the 1%. No one in their right mind would grind
Mechagon for rep chests, even pre update or the average Mythic guild. Maybe a handful sure, but more serious would push it 80-85 the first week, and then relax, not worry about 80-90 day1 and then spam 20 alt funnel runs with engineering hats. So, they took away gear from expacs that crafters could make. Until way after the content was irrelevant. (Still can’t make the 470 trinket btw, even though it’d sims a downgrade. )
In general it just kinda feels sometimes when you go into a profession screen and you can’t even craft your items or craft relevant loot anymore. Watching 5 M boe mythic loot farms open up, with no worthwhile professions in the world or anything done about Multiboxing like the game design is warped around a few things. Like Raiding interests, /time played, and sub money.
I would utterly love it if possible to add a Mythic 10 man either 1 month after the world first 12/12, or after a set period of time from the raid release (8-12 weeks or longer). Whichever is more feasible.
This seems to not only address the issue of having the hardest content tuned accordingly, but also meeting Blizzard’s philosophy of making the game more accessible.
I don’t see why the best of both can’t happen.
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People that push content are normally more involved in the game, which is why their feedback is valuable. Not saying that they are right on everything, just that feedback is important.
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Eh, it goes beyond that… there’s a private discord that the devs talk directly to some of the top guilds/streamers.
They have one for OW too. (they’re not run by the devs, but the devs are in them)
I mean yeah it makes sense. But also at the same time, it kinda gets hard to feel like concerns are focused on nearly as high a priority.
It feels like those same people get one patch changes, for minor dead time changes. (From making armies of engineering alts, to craft a helmet and dump to funnel helmets), to complaining about a few hardcores of the hardcores setting down 24/7 hour a week mechagnome crate farms.
These probably weren’t problems to 99% of the population or players, but they were relatively quickly fixed for those players or patches like (You cannot craft this trinket, until you’ve completed all raids 4 times. ), and (You can’t use this token for rep 100 times after exalted.)
I mean, sure there’s small things. Like essences finally got added after coronavirus. But i mean there’s already so much in wow that makes it impossible to play with even server friends. Even the local people left for classic, then more people left for Vulpera, and then some people might die from coronavirus, and then the people left is just… Like what, i mean losing the raiders was one thing, but then the vulpera stole all the eccentricity and half the worgen players.
So we don’t have raiders, the only ‘things’ left in the inn are draenei, the vulpera stole the furries. Now what are we supposed to do?