I support anyone who points out that the Night Elves should have used diplomacy instead of just starting to kill people (and have liked lots of posts through this thread on the basis of that), as Nioruf did shortly after Vildaryon’s first post in this thread. But I think Valdaryon’s point over all still has merit.
Even if we can’t actually say how Grom would have reacted to the Night Elves deescalating things (and he was dead by that point any way), we do know the Warsong still continued their invasion even after knowing better.
I certainly agree that the Orcs are the ones in the wrong, following up the relative peace they found after Mount Hyjal with another incursion into Ashenvale. That said, I can’t ignore the fact that this is after the initial conflict between the Night Elves and the Warsong. Hyjal may have shown that the mortal races can work together when necessary, but blood between the Orcs and the Night Elves had already been spilled, and I think that was justification alone (in the opinion of the Warsong) to disregard the Night Elves claim on Ashenvale.
Unless you’re talking about the immediate after of Grom just pushing into Ashenvale even after encountering the Night Elves, but I can chalk that up to Grom and the Warsong getting riled up for battle and disregarding diplomacy for “honorable combat”. The Warsong were eager for combat, so I believe that the slightest justification for going to war, the Night Elves striking first (from the Warsong’s perspective) was enough reason to go all in.
I’m definitely not supporting “They wouldn’t have listened any way so we were justified in killing them.” Rather I think the Warsong should have stopped after everything that happened, but didn’t.
Um… isn’t this the “Daelin did nothing wrong” angle?
I’m not saying I agree with it, just that the Warsong would likely care less about the Night Elves opinion of things after they’d fought. Might even be some resentment that the Night Elves inadvertently besmirched the honor of the Warsong by driving them to partake in the demon blood again. I’ll wholly condemn the Warsong for just going in and chopping Ashenvale after they knew the Night Elves were in there.
Sure, but in the territory of things that we might not agree with but that the characters believed, Night Elves thought they were right in killing the Orcs and Humans for stealing lumber.
It’s a strange area where our moralities as players don’t gets applied because the characters believe whatever they believe.
Oh, absolutely, the Night Elves had plenty of reason to believe they were doing the right thing. That’s why I’m made this the hill I will die on, this is one of the best examples we have left of the Orcs (and by extension, the Horde) being morally grey. Their is a LEGITIMATE argument to be made for the Orcs not just being jackasses.
Well sure, but that really gets undermined by Malfurion being right all along that they all should have been friends and Cenarius does a mea culpa in the Dream and is happy to work with the Horde later. And the Horde are still being jackasses.
The Warsong made a mistake, but it wasn’t one driven purely by malice. They had a plausible reason to believe they were (initially) defending themselves, that they were unknowingly the invaders. It doesn’t excuse anything they do afterwards to the Night Elves, but at the very least I can point to these discussions and say “First contact between the Orcs and the Night Elves wasn’t a blatant disregard for the Night Elves own claim on Ashenvale, it was an honest mistake!”
At least until, you know, the Orcs realized the Night Elves actually made their homes there and were defending their land. But I’ll take every example I can of the Orcs and the Horde not always being monsters bent on conquest.
Yeah, but at this point I’d more wonder if the Warsong were told the Night Elves would get mad the Warsong would have gone “Oh. Why didn’t you tell us sooner? We would have chopped the trees down even harder!”
ah, so the guy who sells his soul to literal satans will be diplomatic, gotcha.
Doesn’t seem like a presumption at all. Fleeing is always an option. But again, why would he? Also ‘you will all die’ was spoken by Cenarius well past the point of diplomacy when the orcs pushed deeper into the forest and already committed to despoiling it.
Nope, even when attacked first you also have the obligation to deescalate. Removing yourself from the conflict should be the first response. “Looks like you attacked me first, looks like I get to conquer all of your territory!” isn’t a fair, diplomatic response. Which is why I’m arguing that Grom wouldn’t have accepted any sort of diplomatic reasoning.
Even if the Night elves made a mistake in attacking first, the onus is on the Warsong for their deeds after that. Reciprocal action is killing the ones who attack you first and then removing yourself from the conflict. But does that sound like a Grom thing to do? Of course not.
Again, Grom was on a mission from Thrall, as you said. Why would he accept the wishes of people he’s never met nor cares about?
Azshara had also locked her namesake region into a perpetual state of Autumn. the whole region probably reeked of the arcane to night elf and tauren noses.
It’s an approved American one though. Seriously, what country has ever deescalated after a first attack? Lincoln could have certainly done so after Fort Sumter, it wasn’t an attack that put Washington in immediate jeopardy. Instead we went right to Civil War a 5 year bloodbath. In World War 2 the Japanese bombed an Hawaiian naval base. We burned at least 3 of their cities in retaliation.
The orcs have a war culture, on Draenor they fought clan wars over resources and that was their normal lifestyle BEFORE the Legion put it’s hand in.
Lol, why? Honestly, anyone who has any doubt in their mind that Grommash Hellscream would have come to any kind of peaceful, diplomatic resolution with the Night Elves is willfully delusional. The Night Elves are vindicated with their mistrust of the Warsong because we know from an objective perspective that they are right to be.
Oh yea? Can you cite precedent for what kind of mentality Grom has for conquest, after the fifteen years he spent in the wilds of Lordaeron, that doesn’t involve humans? Can you honestly say the Grom who followed Thrall to Kalimdor is the same Grom that willfully drank the demon blood on Draenor because he wanted war? That after fifteen years of living with the consequences of where the blood curse left him and the rest of the Horde, he wouldn’t see conflict differently? Or are you basing your opinions of Grom on the AU Grommash Hellscream, the guy who doesn’t have any of that experience?
First contact between the Night Elves and the Warsong wasn’t a matter of distrust. The Night Elves are outright hostile because they’re arrogant enough to respond to unaware intruders with violence and death.
Ah, so we’re ignoring context and fixating on story from twenty three years ago ingame, gotcha.
Fleeing is an option until you’re surrounded.
It does explain why Grom and the rest of the Warsong would not consider surrender, though.
For me, this wasn’t about the Night Elves “deserving it”, or that everything that happened was justified, but that the Night Elves bit off more then they could chew. Grom pushing further into Ashenvale to conquer their territory isn’t justified, but the Night Elves were careless enough to react to the Orcs with violence. I don’t blame Grom for accidentally “invading” Ashenvale when he didn’t know the Night Elves existed, and as such don’t believe the Night Elves were at all justified to shoot first, ask questions never.
Removing yourself from the conflict would assume on Grom’s part that he was aware more Night Elves would follow the initial attack. That there was even still an ongoing conflict. The Night Elves don’t make any attempt to clarify the Orcs are invading onto the Night Elves land, the Night Elves just pop out and attack. Was Grom to just know they had an entire society built that revolved around protecting Ashenvale, and that any incursions would be met with death? Kalimdor as a whole was unknown land to the Orcs, whose to say these Elves weren’t raiding them for supplies, or had a vendetta against Orcs in general? When Grom ventured further into Ashenvale and learned more about the Night Elves, he should have deescalated, but that would have happened well after first contact. At that point, why would he respect the wishes of the natives who had attacked without warning, as opposed to the more civilized residents, like the Goblins?
This is the same Grom who, not days before arriving in Ashenvale, disobeyed a direct order from his Warcheif (Something Thrall could have killed him for) because, to quote: “Can you feel it, Thrall? It’s like the old days! Like the Demons are near!”
This is the guy who invaded Azeroth by punting Dreanei babies into sacrificial pits. This is Grom “No screams like the screams of innocents” Hellscream…
The fact orc clans fought each other over resources on Draenor? The Horde was singular evolution in that these warring clans were now fighting together instead of each other.