I’m losing faith. Has there been any mention or even whisper from Blizzard about Gouge? Could they really push Shadowlands out without addressing the #1 problem with Rogues since Legion launched?
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Answer: yes. Look at frost dks. They get 2h back but it’s so far behind dw its insulating.
Feels like rogue is the same way. I’d 100% would rather have gouge over snd. But that’s just me.
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Answer: yes. Look at frost dks. They get 2h back but it’s so far behind dw its insulating.
Feels like rogue is the same way. I’d 100% would rather have gouge over snd. But that’s just me.
Based
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I keep seeing streamers talking about Blizzard listening to the community but I don’t see Blizzard budging much at all on their plan to pile half a dozen systems on top of classes and hope that it all works out.
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I honestly don’t care about SnD. It’s not more entertaining to add another buff. Gouge, Deadly Throw, Shiv (I know it’s coming back), or DfA as baseline whatever all of which make for a more immersive experience. Additionally, with armor the way it is,
SnD is just boring and is one button to push on CD… Zzzz
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Rogues still have two missing talents and beta is next week?
What is Blizz doing?
Talents have been added in beta before, but time is running out.
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I believe they said the beta will be “feature complete”. So, I imagine those talents will be revealed when the beta launches. I suppose that’s one thing to look forward to. Kind of worried about the overall future of the class now, though. You did mention we were running out of time, but I just kind of always thought they’d go through all the classes before the beta. Guess time ran out.
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SnD is no different than rupture , its a buff/debuff to keep up at all times , granted boring , its not one button to push on CD (doesnt have a cooldown)
Yes bring gouge back for all specs .
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What’s with this obsession over Gouge? Saying it’s the #1 problem with the class is pure hyperbole. Blizzard has steadily been reducing CC in the game over the years, it’s pretty clear it is unlikely to return.
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Then why isn’t sap gone? It’s on the same dr right? Why isn’t kidney gone and replaced with cheap? Why isn’t ring gone for mages when they have poly? Why do dhs have two 4 second duration stuns? Ect, ect
Gouge being re added to rogue would not affect the game in pve at all. But in pvp it’s massive. Separating it from good rogues who use it to allow their caster to land cc, pseudo kick casts, set up tipple cc, and peel. Then the bad rogues who will just press it, messing up drs, using it to often and wasting energy, ect ect. I can go on and on about why gouge is such a nice spell for rouges to have in pvp.
Blizzard is removing cc sure, but it doesn’t mean we as players have to accept said changes. Hence why there are tons of people who want this spell to return.
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I don’t believe the logic you’re using to argue Gouge’s removal was the right one, sap sharing a DR with Gouge is entirely unrelated and not relevant, neither is comparing Kidney and Cheap because they also share a DR. That’s just a false equivalence.
All those reasons you listed were the reason why Gouge had an absolutely insane amount of versatility, it’s a very low-risk high-reward ability that also allowed Rogues to chain CC with other classes. Having one ability on a short CD provide as much utility as Gouge did was likely the reason it was axed. I understand why players loved it but to sit there and act like it didn’t warrant removal is a little ignorant.
I don’t believe Blizzard is a fan of one short cd ability giving players so much freedom and potential, they more than likely decided it was healthier to remove Gouge than balance the class around it.
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I am seeing increased CC from other classes not less. Gouge isn’t game breaking and it is not like anyone is saying Garrote must come back.
But Sub does have a lack of openers from stealth which is fundamentally wrong! But the starting point has to be returning Gouge and then looking at unpruning the rest of the Rogue tool kit.
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Gouge gives the class more depth and outplay potential. It’s not like having Gouge made every Rogue a R1 Gladitor, it required skill, timing, risk/reward analysis and energy management to use. You were punished for using it impropery and wasting energy on it, and you rewarded for using it perfectly in the right situations - you could often differentiate good Rogues from bad Rogues with this skill alone.
Our utility toolkit is what made us Rogues, and Gouge is incredibly iconic. PvEing down people in PvP with limited utility is not a fun gameplay style. This is probably why most of us prefer PvP from TBC, WOTLK, Cata, and MoP, where tight CC coordination and calculated gameplay won games, not who could smash their cooldowns and smash buttons 1-3 the hardest.
If you want to nerf Rogue CC, give Gouge a more taxing energy cost, or a slightly longer cooldown… dont remove it entirely. Argue hyperbole if you want, but I’m clearly not alone in this belief about Gouge, as you can see throughout this forum. This is also a sentiment shared by other Rogues I’ve encountered in Classic, many of whom specifically stopped playing retail when Gouge was removed in Legion because the class they loved got such a iconic and important skill-defining ability removed entirely.
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Wait dude are you saying rogue pvp shouldnt be running in with 9 gushing wounds and 2 PvE trinkets and nuking the enemy healer? Idk man that sounds kinda hard. /s
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Because a thread started about Gouge is obviously going to be an echo chamber, if you’re looking for like-minded people that is who you will surround yourself with. People are acting like Gouges removal gutted the class, I’ve seen people say they won’t resub to the game if Gouge isn’t put back in which is just cringe and does not convince Blizzard to implement it back in.
If players legitimately wan’t Gouge back in they need to have well thought out posts on why Gouge was important and how it can improve the experience without detracting from other classes, threatening to unsub and making bold claims will only hurt their cause. The class has been just fine for years after it’s removal, going to be hard to get it back.
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I get your point, but it’s hard to argue that Rogues have been “fine” since the changes made in Legion, considering the difference in subscription #s pre-Legion and post-Legion. While Rogues might technically be “fine” on the damage meters and performance wise, that doesnt change the fact that they are significantly less fun to play. I understand that is just my opinion, but take a look through the many threads on these official forums, and you will see the high number of threads discussing this very thing.
If you browse through these forums, you would see there is plenty of constructive discussion detailing why Gouge is important for Rogues, why it’s so useful, and why it’s important for the flavor of the Rogue class (shout out to Shoes for starting many of these discussions!).
I’d discuss this in the Alpha/Beta forums if i had access, but sadly I do not. I agree that Rogues will probably be “fine” without gouge, from a performance and raw numbers perspective on boss fights or whatever, but my main argument is that the class is no longer fun to play and losing Gouge is a huge part of that drop in fun factor.
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it’s a bit like removing dragons breath from mages. immensely useful ability. Players pick rogue for a more assassin control kill feel. If we just wanted pew pew we would have rolled warrior.
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The problem with your analogy is that rogues have a significant amount of CC relative to others even without gouge. I don’t see Blizz returning it, but good luck.
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I’d disagree. dh has banish and 2 stuns , one being so. mage has ring sheep nova and dragons breath… warriors get a stun fear and disarm… and spell reflect can reverse cc. etc. I’m not going to list every class. if anything rogues are on par with a stun and blind.
next please.
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Yah, that was kinda Rogue’s thing for a long while. We had a lot of different CCs on variable CDs. Other classes do have good CC in a different way. For example, Sheep/Fear is basically Blind with no CD. I mean, you compare all our CCs directly with another CC and you’ll find they’re generally worse in that 1-1 comparison. Not in every case, but yah. That’s also why we were allowed to have so many different CC abilities. They all have longer CDs, trade damage, have buildup, or have a Stealth restriction.
You can bring up Cheap Shot and Shadow Dance on live and I fully would agree. That is 100% just bad for the game. Cheap Shot is suppose to be restricted to Stealth and a 1min Shadow Dance where you also trade high damage by not using Ambush in that short Shadow Dance window.
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