They never once said they thought more people wanted 1.12 AV and they never once suggested that no one wants the early one.
This is the type of nonsense I am talking about.
Stick to the facts, post rational thoughts, stop just posting crying and whining it makes it REALLY hard to be on your side.
My issue is not that generic. My issue is that the entire BG was gutted, removing the neccessity of completing objectives, gathring resources, upgrading units, summoning calvary, wingriders, removal of shredder, removal of large portions of map, making the contributions that non L60s could make less accessible in the time the BG lasted.
The “race” was the largest result, but not the only downside of blizzard’s “improvements”.
Obviously, but all of that can be narrowed down to the rush, without the rush these events happen so you don’t like the rush. If a rush happens these don’t happen.
So now I have to ask. Because you said ‘People who say the BG takes too long have no valid argument anymore if it’s played just like the 1.12 version’, then why would you think it still makes your argument any more valid than theirs?
If the reason you hate 1.12 AV is because these things are removed and the BG becomes a race, but the older version is going to play almost the exact same way… then you should also have no valid argument given your own logic.
And just to clarify I’M not saying you don’t, I’m using YOUR logic you threw at others against you as it works both ways.
My point is that the (non-balance) “improvements” are what created the race, and the race destroyed the rest of the meaningful content of the BG. So I guess if you look at it that way: yes, the race that resulted from the gutting is the issue.
Because if the rush still happens the thing they complained about would no longer be there (it taking too long). How are you not getting that?
I again point to the argument that I (and others) have, in that the elements that were nerfed and removed would make the race less likely if they existed again and at full strength.
I personally believe that the return and strength of the content would result in less of a race in classic.
The main difference is that I am fighting to return to more content, while they were fighting for less content.
I understand that. I’m throwing that logic back at YOUR argument as to why we should have an earlier version dude. If YOUR reasoning for having the earlier versions are because the newer versions skip all those quests/mines/mobs you make etc, but the early version DOESN’T get played out like this resulting in the scenario we are talking about where they don’t last very long. Then by YOUR own logic, you don’t have an argument to stand on anymore.
Okay so if you are going to be on the side of the fence where you think the AV WILL last longer because of the changes and they are played out like this, then you can’t say that the people stating that the early versions last too long don’t have an argument.
See now you’re flip flopping. You say the earlier version doesn’t take as long so they have no argument but now you’re saying you think it will make the bgs last longer. You have clearly stated that you think it will take longer now, so the statement
Is now invalid, because you straight up admitted yourself that you believe it would take longer.
First of all it’s not ‘more’ content it’s just a different version of the same bg. It’s not an addition of a new bg, it’s not even unlocking new items or anything at all. It’s just simply a different version.
Regardless of that point, what does this have to do with anything? Now you’re saying the main reason your fighting for this and how you think people who want 1.12 are wrong, is because you think its more content?
You are all over the place my dude. What is the reason you’re dying on the early av hill? Is it ‘more’ content or is it because you think it’s better? You are making this very silly
I never said that it doesn’t take as long. I was responding to someone else who said that would be the case. What I was saying was that IF it doesn’t take as long, than the argument that they would take too long was nullified.
I have consistently and repeatedly stated this as my position.
Seriously? Are you really going to say that the move and then removal of Korrak, the removal of Shredder, the removal of the Syndicate, were not removal of content? Removal of the majority and the nerfing of the remainder of the faction forces was not removal of content? The removal of entire sections of the map were not content removed?
The content served a purpose, both as speed bumps that allowed PVP to happen organically as it does in the open world, as well as mechanics to utilize the map objectives to move the BG along. You keep trying to make it about one specific thing, yet it was a slew of things that had meaning that were lost.
Those things are not mutually exclusive. You are so obviously trying to pin me down on one aspect of the discussion, perhaps to score a gotcha. My POV of AV sadly for you, cannot be minimized into a soundbite bumpersticker.
What exactly is your POV of AV? Do you actually have one, or are you just in here to be argumentative?
And then I said if thats the case, then your argument is also invalid. Do you understand that?
You for sure were giving hints that it wouldn’t when you suggested others arguments were no longer valid because it didn’t take as long.
Even though this argument is COMPLETELY irrelevant and has NOTHING to do with what we were discussing, yes I would argue that it isn’t content. Do you think the addition of a timer in WSG is content? Because you have to put them in the same category.
Yes I understand this logic and I am not arguing against it specifically. And I’m not attempting to narrow it down to one single instance, I am attempting to tell you that these things are ignored when there is a certain style of gameplay that is happening and even if you put those things in there, it isn’t going to change a thing and you’ll run into the very reason YOU hate 1.12 even with the earlier versions if people simply choose to not do them.
No I’m not, you said yourself, ‘I hate 1.12 because of (insert reason here)’ and then say ‘the main difference is (insert different thing here’. If I ask you a question like why you hate 1.12 or why you want an earlier version and you leave out stuff like this and switch it later on in the conversation then it comes off as flip flopping.
We were discussing one topic (balance/time), and you took it to a completely different case that’s irrelevant to our conversation.
I wouldn’t expect it to be, but I also expect you to carry on a meaningful conversation and give solid points as to why early AV is better if you are CLEARLY this big of an advocate for it. I just like to hear your reasoning and all I hear is either your emotions on how you feel or just a whole bunch of biased level flip flopping.
I’m not being argumentative exactly I’m just poking at you to get an actual REASON why it’s better to maybe discuss it more. My PoV of AV is this…
I love both versions of AV. I believe they both have their upsides and their downsides. I think if the meta is going to be a rush one, then the version of AV honestly doesn’t matter at all as a rush generally makes it so the other team gets wiped before you really deal with the NPCs anyway. Even if 1.12 made the rush thing a meta doesn’t mean that meta isn’t going to also be in the earlier versions.
Honestly, even if they chose to go with the early version of AV for all of classic I would be okay with it. As I don’t really have a massive preference for one or the other.
The reason I post in here is because generally speaking the people who want 1.12 AV will straight up tell you facts and the truth whether you disagree with them or not, and it just seems like most ‘early’ version AVers just sort of spout of half truths or just nonsense in defense of their idea.
If someone from the 1.12 version said something like ‘EARLY AV IS BAD CUZ IT’S NOT TRUE VANILLA’ I would also be poking at him asking him what on earth makes him think that because it’s obviously not true. But I haven’t heard anyone say something like that on the 1.12 side, only on the early version side.
I came back to Classic because I detest what has happened to WoW in Retail - not the game I signed up for. I especially came back to play in the original AV, which I loved and spent most of my time in. PLEASE don’t ruin Classic by giving us the garbage that is 1.12 AV. If we don’t get original AV I don’t see any point in sticking around once I make 60. That’s the whole reason I stuck around before.
OK, I am stopping right here to respond before I read the rest of your exchange, because it’s frustrating to see how thick you are in getting his point.
Unintelligent people are claiming that the earlier patches wouldn’t take any longer because players would figure out how to run an inferior zerg regardless of the patch. They’re implying that Brokenwind, other players of superior quality, and me would not get what we want - long epic battles - even if we did get an earlier patch.
I know this is untrue. Brokenwind knows it’s untrue. So those who really believe that 1.12 is preferable must have a reason for that preference. If they truly believe that earlier patches won’t be any slower, then what is that reason? It can’t be a preference for faster games according to them.
Both Brokenwind and I know that the older patches take longer to play and they are better for that reason.
All Brokenwind is saying is that if his opponents in this debate really do think a race would be possible regardless of version - if they really do believe this risibly dumb claim - then patch chosen should be moot to them.
At the risk of repeating myself, I will state once again that Brokenwind does not believe that older patches would make a race a common occurrence.
Your self-satisfied smugness in believing that you have painted Brokenwind into a rhetorical corner is ridiculous.
You’re not half as intelligent as you deem yourself to be.
And people have given the answer, reducing the number and power of NPC’s allows for more PVP to happen if that’s how people choose to play the map.
And in reality what we’re seeing in retail even with the older version is people will still zerg if they want to regardless.
People have given the wrong answer.
As a Rank 13, you Rank 8 nothing, who has 540 days /played just on my main, and who had more HKs (most of them from Alterac Valley- I wonder why?) at the end of Vanilla than you do now, I am telling you that you are wrong.
Strong NPCs are a speedbump. They don’t allow you to bypass them easily, meaning that riding by the enemy players, waving as you pass each other, is just not possible outside of the most geared and organized of groups.
I pvped more than you. I played AV more than you. Look at my achievements. I am betting my earliest AV patch is way before your earliest.
You. are. just. utterly. ignorant. about. what. you’re. trying. to. talk. about.
Also, the retail version is a recreation. It’s not a copy and paste of the old code.
And even if it was it would just go to Broken’s point that you then don’t have a good reason to object earlier patches.
More numerous and stronger NPCs either matter or they don’t. Which is it?
I told you the reason I prefer 1.12 AV over earlier version. That you played more AV than me doesn’t really matter in regards to your question. Actually I don’t even know you played more AV, just that you have a higher rank.
I’m in a BG to fight players not NPC’s, the NPC’s in earlier versions of AV get in the way of that. As such I completely agree with blizzard nerfing them.
I find this statement hilarious considering you didn’t bother to read what I said going into full detail explaining exactly what I meant.
You say I am the dense one here when I acknowledged in full what he was getting at, and just used that logic to tear down his own stance.
And… I’m the dense one?
I hope this is just a simple case of you not reading everything before you decided to comment LOL. Otherwise you aren’t making your side look too good
Oh god this is super embarrassing. This is copy pasta level of embarrassment!
And see this is my whole point. It seems the people who prefer 1.12 just seem to either stick to the facts or simply say ‘I prefer it this way’ but it seems the early av people only say stuff like
And I am telling you, again, that you fight other players far more often in OG AV than you could ever dream of in the interesting-only-to-low-IQ-trash-players zergfest that is AV 1.11 or so forward.
If you think you fight other players more often in the AV races you are abysmally ignorant.
Furthermore, AV was designed to be a mixture of pve and pvp. That is part of what makes it interesting and different. If you don’t want to pve in your BG, then why are you queuing to play a BG whose win condition is to fight and kill a boss-level npc?
If you want a mindless uninteresting frag-fest go play CoD with the rest of the 12yos or something.
Just throwing my 10 cents behind this. PLEASE DO THIS BLIZZARD. WE WANT OLD AV! NOT NEW!!!
AV didn’t turn into a race until reinforcements were added, which we won’t have in classic.
And yes I got a lot more pvp out of 1.11 AV than earlier version, why? Because there weren’t a bunch of NPC’s getting in the way. And as for AV being a mix of pve/pvp, I agree, I just think the earlier versions were too heavy on the pve where as 1.11 is more about the pvp.
Source?
Source?
It was designed to be this way and blizzard personally said 1.12 is the version they feel is better. So if you’re going to have an argument I would stray very far away from things that blizzard thought should happen.
Except that is not what you did. You just don’t have an intellect subtle enough to understand his argument, and you argued instead against a straw man position.
Considering that his argument wasn’t that complex, that is really embarrassing for you.
What do you do in real life? I wonder.