You understand that these options are only that, options. In 1.12 you also have options and you still have quests to do if you want. In 1.5 you have more, yes, but does that mean just because there’s more that you are going to be able to complete them? No.
Retail sort of proved this with their event. Most games were over fairly quickly because, you know, zergging. Did those mines slow people down? No because most people are smart enough to, you know, not run over them.
You are acting as if these mobs are some sort of god mode machines that are raid boss level of difficulty. They are just harder for a single player to kill, during a zerg they may be up for like what, a couple more seconds? Wow thank god we have those guys on our side.
I always found that bg to be fun. The funnest part of it is backcapping imo when you have like a group of 5 people running around defending them.
Basically a buff to npcs and the addition of a couple quests isn’t going to change peoples mentality of how AV is played. If you act like it is then you just completely ignore history.
If you are killed, you are no longer part of the zerg. You conveniently leave the entire booted back to controlled GYs part of things. The more players that NPCs kill as they try to simply ride past, the less people on the zerg, leading to a higher chance of the zerg failing, which opens up time for the mechanics of the BG to be utilized.
But hey, keep pretending that NPCs were inconsequential.
Yeah let’s just pretend people just turn completely clueless overnight and try to rush a base, by themselves, and have all the archers gun them down one by one. You know this can also happen in 1.12, but you know that wouldn’t fit your bias.
Stop fixating on “prevent,” you’re being pedantic. The point is that they make zerging significantly harder, and more people on both sides would have to be in the passive zerg mindset for it to work. Ultimately, with the old mechanics, people who are only concerned with honor farm will not rely on AV for it.
Yeah brilliant, why have options when people won’t always use them? Nothing interesting about needing more counterplay.
No I’m not. I’m saying all the mechanics combined make a significant difference. Some games will still be zergs, but not nearly as many as 1.12, since they are both harder to execute and because more people will not be zerging since they have a different idea of fun that the old AV appeals to. Hardcore zerger mentality will not be changed, but you are being disingenuous ignoring all the people who clearly don’t have that mentality pushing against this.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t have early versions of AV my dude, I’m just saying the way you think it’s going to play out in your head doesn’t make sense.
Yeah retail’s 15 min AVs on that patch sure showed us that’s a load of crap.
So the early versions are just going to magically make people want to zerg instead of do quests? Are you…are you serious? If someone wants to zerg, it doesn’t matter what version it is, they are going to zerg. If someone wants to do quests, they are going to do quests. There are still these options in 1.12 av and they for sure can be done.
How exactly am I being disingenuous? I am straight up telling you that if you don’t want to do the zerg you aren’t going to do the zerg. I have said that numerous times. If you are capable of reading, I am telling you that the earlier versions aren’t going to prevent anyone from playing it how they want to. And yes in the earlier versions if you want to turtle the stop the zerg and can, and it will more than likely be successful. But you can just as easily do this in the 1.12 version.
If turtling was never an issue with 1.12 because of zerging then blizzard would have never introduced reinforcements. Reinforcements was a direct answer to people prolonging AVs by turtling.
Some"one" is not a zerg. A zerg would entail a large part of the raid, all having the same zerg mentality. That mentality is much more predominant in 1.12 because there’s so much less variety in objectives and tactics, so you have less means to stop it, and less incentive if you found the old variety fun.
What if people don’t want to only kill players or farm goats? What if they like going to different objectives based on enemy presence? What if they enjoy making the decision on when to summon a boss? You are doing the Blizzard thing of trying to boil it down to categories of “zerger vs turtler”, when the point is the variety of objectives and options that let you contribute in whatever way suits you, and keep the games fresh.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. What is with all you people who are begging for early versions that have this idiotic mindset. Like the group of people are going to waltz in 1.5 av and think “you know what… I don’t think we should zerg today”. But for some odd reason in 1.12 you think they go “WE HAVE TO ZERG WE JUST HAVE TO”.
This is THE definition of a bias opinion. You aren’t looking at both sides fairly. People have a mob mentality, they go with the crowd. We all figured out the quickest way to get honor in AV. That’s zerging. Period. 1.5 or 1.8 or whatever version you want isn’t going to stop that. It’s just not. Even in retail, where honor is basically worthless this bg STILL got rushed. In an environment where it’s completely and totally done just for the fun of it, and people still zerged.
Then they can also do those things in 1.12. Nothing is stopping them. Which is what I am explaining to you. You just keep ping ponging and being extremely dishonest.
Here is basically how your mind thinks.
1.5 - “Yeah people are just going to do quests if they want or they will go defend and possibly go take caves”
1.12 “No one is going to want to do any of those things anymore, they all just want to zerg now”
Obviously I know you aren’t going to understand this because you people have driven yourselves into a deep delusion and you can’t see how silly your own words are.
See? You’re fixated on honor farm. You refuse to accept that the multitudes of people pushing for old AV don’t treat it as such. 1.12 AV removed most of the things that those people found fun, therefore it’s not good for anything but farming honor. Therefore that mindset is just objectively less prominent in old AV. And these nostalgic players freaking obviously don’t play retail, so you need to stop dying on that hill.
I’m not fixated on it, normally when I play AV I backcap. I’m speaking of the general population. What happens in AVs. Just like you said some"one" isn’t going to make a zerg, it’s the same thing for some"one" isn’t going to turn it into the mid fighting, questing farming, cave capping AV you want it to be. The way it plays out is in the hands of the majority. And the majority wants to zerg. If you are going to be arguing against that you will lose everytime.
Oh yeah? Just like the min/maxing is also less prominent in classic wow because it didn’t happen as much back then? Or how about the dungeon farming being less prominent in classic because it didn’t happen as much back then. Or how about it being less prominent for people rolling things like, oh I don’t know, dwarf rogues and priests back then to min/max pvp. We know more now, strategies aren’t going to go back to vanilla era strategies just because of a patch.
None of that is an argument against the old AV. Like you said, if people want to zerg, they’ll zerg. But there will objectively be more people that don’t in old AV, as evidenced by the backlash against the new one. So why ignore these people, when according to your side, zergers will still play old AV anyway? Why not satisfy both? There’s more conjecture on your end regardless, since you’re disregarding actual written feedback, citing a strawman majority and/or the infamous “you think you do but you don’t.”
All of those things existed in vanilla. 1.12 AV is not simply about different strategy, about how you interact with content, it’s about the content itself. And they want to give us less interesting content, because as always, they know better.
I’m not trying to argue against the old AV. I’m telling you the YOUR arguments are elementary at best. And simply incorrect. Honestly the fact that you guys think simply changing the patch is going to instantly make people less likely to zerg. There’s nothing more to add to that thought tbh, if you think that then you are just completely the history of this game, and even the very recent history of classic and how it’s being played now.
Source? I can provide a source on how it won’t. And that’s the 15 year event where the old version did literally nothing to stop this. Most games were like 15 minutes long. Some went up to like 30-40 mins (WOW GOT THAT OLD AV FEEL BOY)
I think you need to learn what objectively means before you go throwing around that word again.
It’s clear you have terrible reading comprehension so I’ll say it again. I’m not against the old AV and quite honestly this is the best argument you have thrown out. Sure if you think we should to please both sides that’s all good for me! Let’s just stay away from the things you have been talking about which is objectively (your fav word) incorrect.
Well now you’re just making stuff up completely. I never once suggested any of this. I never said no one wants old AV. I never even said a majority of players want 1.12 av. You really need to learn how to read sweet pea.
Obviously, and I’m telling you the strategies we have been using for the last 13 years or so are going to bleed over into whatever patch you give us. Whatever the best way to get honor is, that’s the way the majority of players are going to take. OBJECTIVELY
That’s all up to opinion idk what to tell you. Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean that everyone does, doesn’t mean the majority does, it just so happens this decision is one you don’t like so you’re being vocal about it.
The only “objective” of AV is to gain honor and reputation. The multifaceted objectives besides killing the general (PVE) did just that. Killing the general just rewarded it on a different scale.
Ah, the magical fantasy that 40 players slammed into a raid group will work as a “team”. They broke premades, they added cross realms, and yet all the “team” has to do is stop a zerg.
A zerg is the EASIEST strategy for a 40 man raid to grasp and roll with, and 1.11 AV is the version that most caters to it.
Your repeated statements about teams in AV is duly noted, and deservedly laughed at.
If your only objectives are reputation and honor then good news, you can do that in 1.12!!! so no worries.
But really the only win condition(real objective) prior to reinforcements was to kill the enemy general.
I mean I’m sorry but if not even a few people on your faction are willing to fight the other faction, and none of them are willing to fight you, then yeah the game should be a zerg.
But in reality it does not take the entire team or anywhere close to it to stop a zerg.
So yeah if you can’t even get 5-10 people who want to not zerg per side the version won’t matter.
Do you actually want me to continue to discuss this with you, or go back to being the guy who I ignore because I think he is an idiot troll?
My point is that the “win condition” was not the only way to get honor and reputation within the BG. You know this, but it didn’t stop you from your fumble fingered attempt at a gotcha.
Unlike you, I live in the real world where the majority players (hell, people in general) tend to take the path of least resistance to their goals. Removing the obstacles in their way to get to those goals reinforces the motivation to seek out said path.
2 things, AV was never a good way to get honor but yes there were rep items people wanted. However you didn’t need to win to get rep and once the people only there for rep get it they leave. Neither of those things change regardless of AV version.
Right but when people are in AV to win the other team zerging is an obstacle to that. As such they will try to stop it. And that’s what generates interesting pvp in AV.
Reinforcements changed that because they made zerging the only option, but in 1.12… people wanted to win even if that meant defending in a turtle.
In late vanilla AV, the first couple minutes determined if it was going to be a short game, or a “let them win so we can get our token”. While it is nice of you to imagine that in those early minutes a “team” would attempt to stop the opposing zerg, in practice that is not how it played out.
Please stop with the TBC reference, I am speaking of within the vanilla scope and in 1.12 the zergs were happening, and in classic they will be attempted ad nauseum.
In practice turtles did not happen within the first few minutes of the BG. Turtles came after failed zergs. (yes, zergs did fail from time to time)
