These were legit my only, ONLY, expectations to DF…
Retribution Aura Redesign
Steed, SoV and Eye for an Eye off the GCD.
+15% passive movement speed
If they could have just done those 3 things, I would’ve considered DF to be a step up from Shadowlands.
We would have made progress. But I guess even that is too hard.
Edit:
Auras of Swift Vengeance renamed Heart of the Crusader.
Heart of the Crusader.
Talent
Requires Paladin
Learn Crusader Aura and Retribution:
Crusader Aura
Increases movement speed by 15% and mounted speed by 20% for all party and raid members within 40 yards.
Retribution
When any party or raid member within 40 yards dies, you gain Avenging Wrath for 8 sec.
When any party or raid member within 40 yards takes more than 50% of their health in damage, you gain Seraphim for 4 sec. This cannot occur more than once every 30 sec.
One thing I don’t understand is Divine Steed; it seems safe to say that at least 80% of players have a problem with the current iteration, so what do they do?
Remove it? No.
Offer alternatives? No. (In fact, they take away any semi-alternatives, LAotL)
Fix any of the issues (Off the GCD, unaffected by slows, shorter CD, longer duration)? No.
…and to top it off, they make it mandatory by having it be the only prerequisite for Avenging Wrath. SMH.
With yesterdays changes, I must reiterate that we need someone from Blizz to come down from their ivory tower and talk to us.
Over 900 replies and little to no interaction in the thread.
Messages are being delivered through the general notes and are cryptic and tone deaf.
Sadly we don’t have a “Naowh” to raise awareness about how their changes are kiling the spec ( such as what he did when they were planning a nerf to blood DK that would have killed it completely in season 3).
You introduce worst and less predictable ways to gain HoPo (Sanctification, Inner power) compared to AoW. And then nerf BOTH AT THE SAME TIME because we have access to too much HP generation, wtf?
Furthermore the AoW change is nerfing consecration generation TWICE.
Less procs lead to less consecration on the ground which means less HoPo ON TOP of Sanctification nerfs. Not mentioning the trickle down effect on Ashe to Dust and Seraphim uptime.
No, no, no, no
This is EXACTLY one of Ret problems. PVP affecting class design and making it feel terrible to play for the whole game for the sake of balancing PVP.
If what a class does in the game in general is problematic in PVP you address it in PVP only, you don’t break the class for the rest of the game.
If giving mobility to Ret is a problem because “PVP gamemode” then either modify it just for PVP or adjust the damage for the increased uptime.
Can I bother your ability to write in the Paladin feedback thread?
I want to point out how ill-advise it is to nerf AoW proc for those in the Ret community that were planning to NOT use the added HoPo generator. Such as to optimize gameplay with Dusk and Dawn talent for example.
They nerfed a concurring style of play because another style using similar talent had too much HoPo.
We realistically can make build without those new generators and this nerf overly affect people that wouldn’t have played those talents anyway. So in other words, our HoPo generation is now being balanced around us ALWAYS picking those talents even for gameplay style that doesn’t require them…
Amen to that homie, no class should ever be balanced around pvp in any way shape or form.
Just do what ffxiv did blizz, make a seperate set of abilities for pvp and pve. Pvp in this game is trash idk why you’d balance anything around the LEAST played aspect of your game between pvp, raid, and m+. Its quite asinine tbh.
I mentioned this in the Beta thread, but one thing I wanted to toss to the community is discussing Divine Shield and Lay on Hands. I feel these abilities along with BoP are sucking the oxygen out of the design space not only for the spec, but the class as well.
While they are extremely powerful abilities in niche situations I wonder if making them optional talents, or even redesigning them wouldn’t be healtheir for the class? LoH is already an optional node in the class tree.
It just feels to me that they’re a millstone tied around our necks and are really preventing Blizzard from being creative wise on whatever budget they have for “power/defense”.
Even if they got rid of them, what makes you think they’d even give us anything fair in exchange? And i say fair meaning equivalent, what you’re looking for is an improvement.
These are the same devs that:
choked our class tree full of throughput talents, so much that we can barely get our utility back, what new utility did we get??? i question in the void
gave us Long Arm back just to take it away, because movement is fun, but we don’t deserve fun apparently…
gave us Blessing of Spellwarding just to take it away… + nerfed it for Prot, now it’s 5 minutes the same as Blessing of Protection. (at least that’s what i’ve heard, i didn’t check yet)
gave us Exorcism without integrating it in our HP combat system, while also simultaneously making us have Consecration down a melee range spell before it can be used in AOE… Exorcism… a ranged spell
gave us Radiant Decree… a spell that is a finisher, replacing a generator, while doing less dmg than it and only a bit more than Divine Storm due to not taking into account talents that buff Divine Storm. How messed up is that for an addition?
nerfed Ashes to Dust… twice, is this how we balance? we nerf procs instead of % dmg nerf?? Slowing down the rotation, smh
they put AW: Might against Crusade for us to chose… AW: Might which only brings up AW to what we currently have, versus Crusade which is an upgrade to what we have on Live
they give us Sanctification/Inner Power extra HP generation only to say… ah you have too much HP generation, so they proceed to nerf Blade of Wrath… which affects plenty of talents and effectively slows down our rotation, instead of redesigning Sanctification/Inner Power
make us literally waste a point on Hand of Hindrance or Consecrated Ground/Sanctified Ground, these provide almost zero benefit in raiding, to get to Relentless Inquisitor if we happen to want to go and take it or talents after it, with Selfless Healer/Healing Hands we actually benefit from them
make us waste 2 points on Fist of Justice… we going to stun bosses now, or what?
do i really have to mention that we’re the only melee class without any gap closer/movement ability baseline?
do i really have to mention that we’re literally the only class in the game losing mobility going from SL to DF? every other class is gaining mobility, there may be some that are keeping it as it is, but i know that most of them are gaining more
and do i have to mention that we’re going to spend 3 points on nerfed mobility?
Seal of the Templar is a joke, we’re supposed to keep Crusade Aura on to benefit from an amazing 3 yards range on select abilities, when Retribution Aura(aura lol) is providing us with dps? While rogues get 3 yards no strings attached?
as opposed to SL, they’ve put more emphasis on us using Retribution Aura, since they tied a Seraphim proc to it now, so it’s basically mandatory, so we can’t even use Devotion Aura if needed, as we’ll surely take a dps dive because we’re balanced around using Retribution Aura
added another degenerate mechanic with Recompense… which we will be balanced around, so you can’t even save sacrifice for an actual intended use, since you’ll want to gain the Recompense dmg on cd
added a speed increase of 2% with obduracy, but they’ve managed to screw that up too by placing it after the last gate against the 10% extra dmg for Consecration talent, so we can take it only with a DPS hit…
after mentioning Consecration, we’re now married to it basically, a stationary aoe which our dps will be balanced around
Empyrean Legacy is clunky to use, 30 second static effect and we need to hold Judgment to proc it on time? It’s a shell of Vanquisher’s Hammer.
they make selective nerfs, for example: what’s with Seal of Wrath and Boundless Judgment not even casting Judgment? They are both weak and rng.
if you look at the talents left, they’re % increases to select abilities and boring as hell and most of them are undertuned, especially for ret
i wonder if i mentioned that we have a truckload of rng talents still?
added Divine Protection to our tree against Shield of Vengeance, but added it at 2 minutes, making it inferior to SoV, you need to take 150% of you HP in dmg to equal its protection… and you still don’t gain anything else from it, with SoV you gain dmg.
our mobility and defensives are almost all on the GCD, every other class have most of them off the gcd, we’re the opposite.
Justicar’s Vengeance is still in the game… really?
Holy Avenger unchanged from 3 minutes where nobody uses it, against Divine Purpose which everyone likes and uses, what’s the point in keeping HA the same?
I think i pasted them from my mind above… but basically for a shorter version: they can go ahead and delete them, but devs that made the above decisions will absolutely give us a lot less than what they’re worth, we’d be pawning them for pennies.
P.S. Can someone make a list of why Ret is better than in SL?
I’m willing to bet it’s a lot shorter than the downsides list i made above… and i didn’t hit everything that’s wrong either, only the obvious stuff.
Uh, they are 200% not designing the spec around pvp, the person who wrote that about pvp and “ret’s weakness” is completely clueless.
The Legion ret iteration was designed around the Diablo 3 crusader with absolutely 0 regards to pvp and only with raiding and world quests (lol yes, apparently this is a thing to design around) in mind.
Back in Legion in a pvp scenario with mages or shamans involved the spec literally could not walk, even 3k streamers would instantly quit their matches if they didn’t get a lucky kill quickly.
I rather be correct and part of the “few” than wrong and part of the many. The Legion iteration of ret was a mimic of the Diablo 3 crusader, we really need to ditch these Diablo 3 ideas, it’s not just ret that’s getting infected by them.
Modifiers have always been in the game but having 10 different modifiers is also a Diablo 3 thing. Just watch a ret game into a frost mage from Legion and tell me that was designed around pvp.
The spec can’t stay stuck with the exact toolkit forever, why are we even paying expansions for lol.
Pretty subjective since they aren’t commenting on it. So your opinion, my opinion… they are the same in the void that is their communication in regard to Ret.
Except I’ve illustrated previously how certain decision they made only find their sense when you look at it through the lenses of PVP, FOR ME.
I claimed many time that I didn’t pretend to be right on this, merely how it feels TO ME, when they put up BS changes or non-changes.
The only explanations I can come up with to explain to complete lack of logic are PVP oriented.
LaotL removal and refusal to enhance our mobility all around
No NPC is gonna complain about ret being slightly more mobile and able to stick to his target. Only place where it is likely to cause problem is in PVP, where it could become oppressive for a class with such burst to stick “too well” to a target.
Defensive and horse on GCD
Same logic, no NPS is gonna complain about us being able to use our defensive and our mobility when we do need it. Only place that where such a thing would be warranted is in PVP where you would want a class with massive amount of delete power to make a conscious choice about either dealing it’s damage or protecting itself to choose a better opportunity to deal damage.
You are welcome to introduce a scenario that explains their decision better than what I did.
I’ve yet to encounter someone who did.
I’m completely aware of the existence of the modifiers and frankly it only makes the decisions they take that much more mind boggling.
There is no coherent train of thought being followed, I don’t think they are as organized as we think. Some people aren’t getting the memos in their class design department.
I believe cloning the Diablo 3 Crusader kinda answers the mobility question, in fact there is a dev interview when they bring up the D3 Crusader a lot and their recent explanation for removing Laotl also falls in line with Diablo 3 bs.
In regards to Vengeance Shield I think they just appllied the Ice Block and Bubble logic but that’s speculation.
I’ve already mentioned how it is imposible to have designed Legion ret around pvp since the spec back then was unable to walk in certain common scenarios but you chose to ignore that part.
I guess we’ll agree to disagree, at the very least I supose we agree that the spec not getting anything in a new expansion 2 or 3 times in a row is rather unacceptable.
You’re the one who falsely thought I was saying that in absolute terms.
I never pretended to detain the absolute truth unlike this here below.
That’s how YOU feel about it, just like how I feel Ret design is being limited by PVP mode. It’s not impossible, you could be wrong, just like I could be wrong about what I’m saying.
Regardless, I’m not really interested in talking about legion? I don’t know why we even bring it up…
Someone still need to find me an explanation to LaotL removal that doesn’t revolves around PVP.
The point of a game is to be fun to play. That’s a pretty fundamental and basic thing.
So what would possibly push them to remove a talent that is, by their own admission, FUN if not that it made the game less fun for other players?
And the only gamemode where that would be true is PVP.
What are you talking about? Like, I literally have no reference for this…
LaotL can co-exist with horse. It not a “one or the other” situation.
Furthermore, that’s not even an answer.
“LaotL was removed because D3 Crusader”… what?
I’m gonna extrapolate and type out what I think you mean since what you said explained literally nothing.
They now take inspiration from D3 crusader for Paladin and therefor cannot stray to far from it thematically.
I’ll put aside the fact that “Long arm of the law” is an actual D3 talent, even if it wasn’t doing the same as the WoW talent.
Let me tell you the problem I have with this.
You’re suggesting the Diablo team now indirectly dictates what Paladin are in WoW.
And with the resources poured into WoW, I doubt anyone would work under the premise that a team from a literal other game have the car keys when it comes to change to Paladins. That’s just not a thing.
I’m afraid that my explanation still appears more likely to me (shocker I know) than what you are suggesting.
They have shown to be inconsiderate and illogical in their decision but never unpractical.
They always have an in-game reason for what they do even if we can find it to be stupid.
Uh, for years Diablo 3 devs have been pouring into Wow.
I’ll just reiterate that Dragonflight ret looks the same as it has looked about about the past 7 years, hopefully all the complaining will get us some changes.
