Feedback: Priests

I am so happy to see so many changes for S-priest. New Mind spike is pretty cool. And I think the sigle target is perfect at this point.
However, for aoe, it is still not as we aspect. Removing the Surrender to Madnes will make S-priest have no enough insanity in aoe(It is the only way we can get enough insanity in last patch although it is annoyed ). I think if we can get some new way to get insanity, it will be very helpful to save the S-priest in M+
And another annoyed thing is Mind Sear. We couldn’t move when we are channeling Mind sear and Mind Flay. Maybe we can have some talent to get some skills to make us channel during moving just like envoker.

2 Likes

Loving the direction of the changes we’ve seen so far. However I have some concerns / questions regarding them.

Shadow Feedback: Competing spells

Mind spike now has clear rotational function both with SoD and in the fact it doesn’t remove dots, but it’s basically a filler spell in the same way mind flay is. Is spike supposed to replace flay in the rotation when it’s taken? Having both is good for flexibility and the option to slow on demand, but how are the two spells meant to fit alongside eachother?

Voidform Vs dark ascension: Now that these spells share a choice node it’s obvious they’re supposed to offer separate gameplay, but I’m struggling to see the specific use case for each. The dots Vs direct damage angle seems the best choice, but the two spells don’t lean into their respective gameplay enough to have that distinction be anything more than tuning right now. I guess with mastery still working as is that makes voidform the aoe cd? I’m not sure that’s a particularly compelling design.

7 Likes

First impressions of the updated tree.

—CLASS TREE—

Very happy to see tithe evasion in here, the changes to fade and phantasm are also really good.

Overall I think the class tree is good, my main concerns are the lack of interrupt, and Death and madness.

Are priest just supposed to be the only healer without an interrupt? I find that kind of ridiculous but at the very least some communication on this would be appreciated.

Death and madness not resetting on kill is pretty disappointing and makes this talent a lot less interesting to use. Would really like to see it returned to a reset within the 7 seconds.

Still no cascade or spectral guise :frowning:

Also vampiric embrace is still weird, pretty medium for shadow and bad for the other 2 specs.

—SHADOW TREE—

Good changes but again, a few things that really stick out to me.

Our top third is still so crammed with points I don’t see a way to ever take all or even most of the utility here. It doesn’t really feel good having to give up the limited amount of utility we were able to have previously to take throughput.

The middle section pathing feels…off to me. Unfurling darkness and psychic link being the only ways to get to dark evang?

I don’t like mind melt. I want mind blast to just hit hard, this feels like it’ll pull some of the power out of mind blast just to do some gymnastics to get it back to where it should be. Maybe I’m wrong here.

The last third of the tree feels very disjointed to me. I like a lot of the stuff here, but it just feels like an amalgamation of things rather than a way to really focus a build. Some of that could just be that I don’t think our capstones are particularly interesting still.

The Great Wall of 2 pointers still stands, echoing the previous statements…it’s a little silly.

Gut responses, will have to play with it when I get home today.

6 Likes

That’s what I did on the PTR and it felt sooooo good! I have no idea if it’s good dps wise, but gameplay wise I love it!

I just wish Dark Ascension was instant cast like typical dps cooldowns are.

2 Likes

I think just like what we did in 6.0. We only need to use quicken mind spike to enhance our mind blast. And the other time we can use new talent Mind Flay:insanity as a filling skill. But this is only for single target…For aoe, there is a lot problem can’t be solved, especially lack of insanity…

And you are right, voidform is aoe cd now if they donot tune it again and dark ascension will be a better choice in single target.

1 Like

Mind Spike

This morning I wanted to take some time to talk about Mind Spike returning as a spell and where it fits into our rotation and kit. Specifically lets go over the recent changes and how that plays into this spell:

Mind Spike – No longer removes damage over time effects. Critical Strike chance bonus to Mind Blast moved to Mind Melt.

In a previous post I made a note asking what the purpose of Mind Spike was clearing DoTs, if we only ever end up using it with Surge of Darkness procs. This change certainly solves part of that problem since now you can freely cast Mind Spike without any downsides. The main question now comes in with how should this spell be used versus Mind Flay?

Making it no longer remove DoTs as a baseline puts it in a tricky situation where the player now has to know when to cast Mind Spike over Mind Flay, which will be dependent on talent choices and tuning. Tuning aside, it seems realistic to assume if you are talenting into the Mind Flay buffing talents like Mind Flay: Insanity, Monomania, or Mental Decay that Mind Flay will continue to be your filler spell. On the other side if you talent into Mind Melt, Whispers of the Damned, Mastermind, etc. these buffs could bring Mind Spike over edge of Mind Flay. The core issue I have with this is this is 100% a sim problem. Where after a certain amount of talents buffing them you will change which one becomes your filler depending on the situation. Having this be purely a math/sims question as opposed to a rotational one does not seem interesting to me. I would prefer a talent tree design or talent design in general that was clearer about when and where you want to use each filler.

Problems I’m concerned about:

  • It is not clear when to cast Mind Spike vs. Mind Flay now that Mind Spike has no downside to hard casting it and the tuning between the two likely leads to Mind Flay only being our filler when you take the talents that buff it. Assuming Mind Spike’s cast time will be affected by haste it generates the same amount of Insanity per second as Mind Flay and deals more damage. I’m not pointing this out because I want one or the other to be buffed/nerfed I’m just pointing out that if the answer to which one to cast comes down to numbers that design is not fun to me.
  • This might bring in “weaving” of Mind Spikes to game the 100% critical strike on Mind Blast if talenting into Mind Melt. While some people enjoyed this weaving I’m not sure the idea of wanting to always cast two Mind Spikes before every Mind Blast would be fun gameplay
  • Having Mind Spike pseudo-replace our filler by just being mathematically better is not fun. If Mind Spike stays better it will mean Mind Flay is only used to refresh DoTs or with other talents buffing its interactions like Mind Flay: Insanity. This also effectively nerfs those talents if we aren’t pressing Mind Flay as often.

Some options to consider:

  • Similar to Legion, have Mind Spike outright replace Mind Flay when talenting into it, and have all Mind Flay related talents transform to work with Mind Spike when talented into that.
  • Add the baseline DoT removal back to Mind Spike, but have Dark Ascension transform Mind Spike to no longer remove DoTs when active. This keeps the existing gameplay loop with Surge of Darkness procs but then clearly leans you to making Mind Spike your filler inside of Dark Ascension which makes that cooldown more interesting.
44 Likes

Greetings Priests,

Today, we’re shining some light on decisions we’ve made for Priests over the past few weeks for Dragonflight. First, we want to share thoughts on how things are shaping up overall and then go into some specific spells that we’re reading feedback about.

Number of Active Spells
We agree. Priests have too many active spells. While we think there will be more to assess as the expansion plays out, the first spell that comes to mind is Shadow Mend feeling unnecessary with Flash Heal being available to all Priests. Instead of Shadow Mend as a talent that overrides Flash Heal, we are working towards removing the spell. We realize that losing a secondary healing school lockout may not sit well with Discipline Priests in PvP, but we’re happy with this direction overall. While no plans are in place right now, we’re also discussing Mindgames and Power Word: Life as contributing to the number of active spells for Priests.

Class Tree
Overall, we feel the class tree is in a good spot. As mentioned above, there are too many active spells and we’re looking to pull back on that. For Shadow, the Class tree has shaped out well. We’re less happy about how many nodes can feel mandatory for Holy and Discipline and this is something we’ll be looking to improve over time.

Discipline
We will continue to monitor feedback surrounding the changes we’ve made to Renew and Power Word: Shield for Dragonflight. Currently, we do not have plans to change this and think it is playing well.

Historically Discipline has revolved heavily around Penance. We want to allow for builds that are centered around Penance, but also open opportunities for other spells in the Discipline toolkit to shine if invested into, such as Smite and Power Word: Shield. We look forward to your feedback on if this is felt with the tree, tuning aside.

For Shadow Covenant, we’re looking to take away the downsides so that it encourages Shadow spells but doesn’t discourage Holy spells. Shadow Covenant has gone through a lot of change, but we’re hoping this is a step in the right direction.

Holy
Lightweaver is our alternative design to Flash Concentration. Weaving between Flash Heal and Heal is fun, but wound up feeling like a maintenance buff. We believe having a back-and-forth between the spells with stacks to improve situational usability is a better direction for single-target focused builds.

When it comes to X’anshi (now known as Restitution), we are excited to keep the effect around for Holy Priests. We were uncertain of where this should belong in the tree, but after more deliberation decided it was best competing with the more powerful talents, so it has been moved to row 10 of the tree. We know adding this in was not desirable for PvP players. While we have no plans to disable the effect in PvP, we are discussing ways to tone down its effect in PvP so that the Priest is in more danger after resurrecting. This node also competes with two charges of Holy Word: Serenity, so they will be giving up valuable throughput for the effect.

Shadow
Now that the tree has been in front of players for a couple weeks, we are reasonably happy with what we have, with room to grow in the future. Our initial thoughts on Voidform being optional is something we stand by. How to accomplish this while continuing to support Voidform and improve its gameplay is a challenge we want to continue to discuss and work on. Currently, we’re happy with where we’ve landed with Void Eruption competing with Dark Ascension so there’s not too many cooldown spells. With that said, Dark Ascension is visually exciting, but we feel it is currently lacking in identity. We’re discussing changes like Dark Ascension being more rotationally transformative while active or having a different cooldown than Void Eruption, so that its use cases over Void Eruption are more clear. We don’t have plans to make major changes to either spell for Dragonflight launch, but they will be on our radar for the future.

Mind Spike and Mind Flay coexisting is something we’re going to try but are wary of. Shadow has many spells to press rotationally, and this isn’t helping that. At the same time, being able to build your own Shadow Priest was a goal with this iteration and we believe the tree allows for that.

Silence
We understand that Holy and Discipline are the two specs without access to an interrupt, either baseline or in a talent tree. We also realize Shadow has Silence in their tree which adds to the number of non-throughput nodes in their tree. With that said, we are not adding Silence to the Priest class tree. Having access to an interrupt is not something we view as necessary for all specializations. In PvP, Holy and Discipline already provide valuable control to their team and additionally having Silence would provide more control than we’re comfortable with. This is especially true with how much control is becoming available across all classes in Dragonflight.

Vault of Heavens
This was discussed early on with this iteration with the intent to add it as a choice against Leap of Faith. Upon further consideration, Vault of Heavens is almost always more useful than Leap of Faith. But Leap of Faith is one of the more fun interactions in WoW. It changes your perspective on the battlefield. You’re always ready to react to save someone. And of course, it has some clever uses to get your friends killed. If we allow for the choice, the choice is clear, or we’d have to nerf Vault of Heavens down to something that won’t feel very powerful. The fantasy of the Priest leaping to their target doesn’t match our expectations for a Priest either, so we instead separated Body and Soul from Angelic Feather for a little extra movement support and kept Leap of Faith as a standalone.

Shining Force
This spell was deliberately removed in Dragonflight. Powerful spells being removed can cause frustration; however, the amount of control available across all classes in Dragonflight is causing concern. On top of this, the prevalence of knockbacks is already increasing in Dragonflight PvP and knockbacks can be the most influential control effect on arena or battleground maps with verticality.

Spectral Guise
We’ve read feedback about a desire for the return of Spectral Guise. We discussed the ability early on and decided against it, and our stance has not changed. We do not want Priests entering stealth especially in PvP, as it removes the Priest from the target and focus frame and occurs frequently. Hunters, Rogues, and Mages already do this often enough.

Mind Bomb
In its current form as a disorient we don’t think it is very compelling as a replacement to Psychic Scream besides preventing movement during the effect. What we anticipate is desired is the AoE stun version of the spell, but we are not planning to bring that forward. We pulled back on AoE stun duration and availability some time ago and decided against adding this one back so that we wouldn’t find ourselves in the same situation we were in the past. If everyone has an AoE stun, then it’s not going to feel special to have one in the first place.

Personal Defenses
For similar reasons as Silence, we will not be adding Dispersion to the Priest class tree. Healing Priests are understandably on the weaker side of the defensive spectrum, but our answer to that isn’t to bring Dispersion to the class tree. Between Desperate Prayer, Power Word: Shield, Angelic Bulwark, Translucent Image, and Spell Warding, we feel Priests are in an okay spot. We’ve also increased the damage reduction effect from Translucent Image to 10% and separated Phantasm from it.

Looking forward to your feedback!

17 Likes

Seems to me like you’ve designed Priest utility with only PvP in mind with zero regard for PvE desirability.

Sure our kit may be overloaded for PvP, but is it healthy that we offer basically no value in group-based PvE content?

128 Likes

Holy Priest Feedback on the 9/13/2022 update:

(The beta isn’t updated with the new build, but I had the PTR client installed anyway)

Holy Priest Tree:

Damage Feedback

Thank you for moving Empyreal Blaze up higher in the tree and buffing Burning Vehemence to actually be impactful because it was kind of pointless to have cast time reductions when you could fire off instant casts all the time. It is much easier to budget in these abilities into an M+ focused DPS build. You can also take it in a raid build without much consequence.

The only suggestion I have is also moving up Searing Light higher in the tree branching off of Empyreal Blaze. It is an awkward position to take as you have to take either a renew talent or PoM related ones to take.

It also makes little sense why I have to take a dps talent if I want to branch down a healing path so I can get Miracle Worker or Restitution.

Healing Feedback

Thank you for moving Apotheosis/Holy Word Salvation higher up in the tree. That was my #1 issue with the previous iteration with the tree. Either way: here’s my feedback.

  • Archbishop (now called Resitution) is now a bottom tree ability → I honestly don’t like this change at all. I would like this to be higher up in the tree like it was before. Priest self-revive was a nice utility thing.
  • Divine Hymn is now tied to taking Afterlife or Renewed Faith. I do NOT like this change. Divine Hymn is a class critical ability and needs more access points. Afterlife is a mediocre talent and Renewed Faith only works if you’re taking Benediction or hard casting Renews.
  • Desperate Times is a tad TOO powerful. +10/20% increased healing on targets below 50% health on-top of being able to get a +10% bonus from Twists of Faith healing targets below 35% hp is giga hp padding. It’s borderline a mandatory pick for raid healing.
  • Resonant Words was buffed → Thank you… +30% healing before was a joke. +50% is more impactful.
  • Lightwell is still really bad: it does half the healing of a Renew tick over 6s, has 15 charges, and can only be used once every 3 minutes. It’s neither impactful nor useful.
  • Divine Image was really bad when it was a legendary. It had a ridiculously low proc rate to the point I could not even proc it for minutes in a row. Divine Word literally blows it miles out of the water. Divine Image needs to be massively buffed.
  • Answered Prayers should branch off of Apotheosis/Salvation branch. I do think it’s a nice change because having it proc Power Infusion before was too powerful and would result in sitting on the cooldown until you wanted to pop Divine Hymn or Salvation.
  • Empowered Renew/Rapid Recovery should be moved up higher in the tree branching off of Renewed Faith & Benediction imho. It’s in an awkward, random location.
  • Miracle Worker buff is pretty nice, but my main issue with it is that it’ll lead to much faster Holy Word Salvation reset times. You can immediately knock off a minute on the cd as long as you have two charges built up of each ability. The second issue is that you only really get to use the extra holy word once in “most” situations as you’re chaining the holy words on cd.

Either way: I will say this update was a nice change. Moving up Holy Word Salvation/Apotheosis actually makes it so you can make meaningful choices on the bottom of the tree instead of having to pigeon hole yourself into one bottom tree.

I do need to point out a major issue though regarding Holy Word Salvation:

  • There’s too many talents that focus around resetting Holy Words and that leads towards faster Holy Word Salvation resets. These talents will get prioritized over others on fights where you can get 2-3 Salv casts off.

General Priest Tree (Holy Priest Feedback):

  • Holy Nova & Rhapsody is still underwhelming despite the +50% damage buff to Holy Nova. Rhapsody takes 100 seconds to make Holy Nova do half the damage Divine Star does.
  • Still no branch to Shackle Undead unless you take Body & Soul.
  • Phantasm is a nice talent in its position.
  • Dominant Mind and Mind Control are now two different abilities? Tad bit confused.
  • Improved Mass Dispel should reduce the mana cost as well imho.
  • Translucent Image is back to 10%… one step back, one step forward. A 20% reduction is all we’re asking for.
  • Angelic Bulwark is still underwhelming. It should work just like the ability did from Dreamweaver. Drop below 80% hp and get a shield.
  • Power Word Life is still underwhelming. Its one of the weakest heals in our inventory and requires targets to be below 35% health to use properly.

Not really much to add here.

8 Likes

Any word on greater fade? You mention you’re pulling back on control and defensives but we’re seeing an explosion of gap closers across all melee specs. Outlaw rogue currently has access to grapple and shadowstep as a quick example.

Keeping with PvP talents for the moment, the number of talents that explicitly reference or impact voidform is concerning, given it is no longer the focal point of the spec. Some retooling needs to happen there to make sure shadow still has compelling options for PvP when not playing voidform.

The silence and dispersion comments make sense, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with leaving both things in the spec tree as long as pathing into them essentially ‘free’. The problem is that’s not the case, and shadow will with the current design always be left in a position where it’s choosing between damage buffs and it’s most powerful personal utility.

29 Likes

This comment might feel a little premature but it’s beginning to feel like your solution to ‘Classes have too much access to XYZ’ is to take XYZ away from priest.

122 Likes

I would still like to see a very basic interrupt in the Class tree (not Silence) purely for the benefit of M+ utility. As someone who does not engage with PVP, this just comes across as superficial inequality and a huge oversight for M+ compositional diversity, especially for the more casual players and groups that would benefit from the additional interrupt most.

83 Likes

Feedback on the latest tree

In this post I want to go over feedback related to the changes posted to PTR recently, outlined here.

Class Tree

  • Tithe Evasion being moved to the class tree is amazing to see and fits perfectly, love this change
  • Buffing Translucent Image back up to 10% is great to see and makes Fade a nice small defensive for the class now, which is nice.

With these changes and others I didn’t call out I think this tree is looking incredible. There are a few things I’d still like to see iterated on or changed, but largely I’m happy with the tree overall.

General Feedback:

  • Vault of the Heavens, Shining Force, Spectral Guise, and Mind Bomb stun might not make sense for PvP but any of these spells would go a long way in making Priests more viable in PvE environments. Shadow specifically still has nothing that makes it stand out from Holy/Discipline and any of these could provide that.
    • Shining Force as a knockup might be really good in PvP but it never has been in PvE. It feels bad to lose this as an option just because it makes balancing one game mode harder than the other. PvE or PvP suffering from the other is not an old problem but this feels bad nonetheless
    • Mind Bomb stun was removed when lots of classes had an AoE stun yes, but Shadow Priest specifically desperately needs some utility that makes them desirable in Mythic+ and Raid PvE environments. Having lots of specs with an AoE stun is for sure an issue, but I don’t think adding this to Shadow would be the end of the world, and would go a long way in making the spec feel better in pushing PvE content at a high level
  • Sheer Terror generally still feels underwhelming and I can’t see it being used much, would love to see Mind Bomb come back and replace it, especially if its the stun version. This would make it a better choice against Void Tendrils
  • Void Tendrils is still kind of awkward to use, I would prefer if it was a targeted ground effect to make it more clear where and which targets it is affecting. Right now with the way it works it is unclear when used on mobs that are immune to that effect if it was even used at all
  • Still a bit concerned about the strength of Vampiric Embrace, especially compared to what other Hybrid classes like Shaman and Druid have in this department. Would love to see this spell improved on in some way that makes it more unique and fun to use.
  • I’ve mentioned in the past some issues with Halo/Divine Star that I think are still relevant, feedback here.
  • As a Shadow Priest the option in the bottom left and bottom middle section of the tree (aside from Void Shift) are still generally underwhelming options

Having access to an interrupt is not something we view as necessary for all specializations.

If this is your stance, then why is Priest the only specialization that has this mentality? I get the thought but in practice it feels like priests are being left out rather than you saying it isn’t necessary.

Shadow Tree

Before I go any further I just want to comment that I’m happy to see the tree continued to be changed and iterated on. While I don’t think the tree is perfect I think we are heading in a good direction and I’m excited to see what comes next.

  • Hallucinations being baseline is a great thing to see, this was given to Shadow Priests to make pressing our utility feel less bad so it being baseline makes a lot of sense again in Dragonflight.
  • The changes to Dark Ascension are overall positive, I think in addition to these I’d like to see more definition on the choice node with Void Eruption to make it more clear when and where each talent specializes in
  • Derangement increasing Mind Sear damage instead of cast speed is a great change to see and makes the talent easier to understand why/when you’d want to take it
  • Baking in Silence rank 2 to make the range 40 yards again is a great change to see!

General Feedback:

  • Mind Spike changes are interesting, and I think require some iteration to make it really work in the kit. I’ve given my full thoughts on Mind Spike here.
  • Mind Sear consuming Insanity on the initial tick just feels weird. This effectively shortens the amount of time we spend channeling Mind Sear, which I think is good. But when you actually press the button it can lead to a very large amount of Insanity drained in a quick period of time that feels awkward since its a channel spell. For example, if you have 50 Insanity you would consume all of that in under a second. This case specifically makes it feel very odd when playing with it in game and makes me wonder what the benefit of having a channeled resource consumption does for us vs. just making it an instant cast spender. Obviously this is contending with Devouring Plague heavily but the more I play with this the more I wonder if having another Insanity spender aside from DP will play well if it is on a channeled spell.
  • The changes to the bottom right section of the tree don’t feel super enticing at a first glance. At the top level I’m not sure of where I would rather have Damnation vs. Void Torrent in specific situations other than “which one of these does more damage in my sim”. Maybe its pitched as “more dots every 30s-60s vs. ST damage/insanity every 30s-60s”. Each of these by themselves does kind of have a use case but I’m just not clear on why I would invest my points in this section vs. others in this section of the tree. A few nodes were removed in this bottom section in this build, but I think there are still quite a lot of choice in this section that don’t exactly play off of each other as you flow through the tree.
  • The changing in pathing in the middle of the tree leads to an awkward choice between having to get Unfurling Darkness or Psychic Link to get Dark Evangelism. While Dark Evangelism does have use cases in multi-target where having Psychic Link or Unfurling could make sense, it also is valuable in single target where Unfurling Darkness and Psychic Link make much less sense or don’t work at all. I’d love to see the pathing updated to better reflect this as right now it feels like we are forced into picking Unfurling Darkness since it technically does something on pure single target, just to get to the bottom middle of the tree for Dark Evangelism. A simple way to fix this would be to add a straight line from Ancient Madness down, allowing us to build single target without feeling forced into UD or PL.
  • The Void Bolt cooldown going down to 6 seconds is definitely an improvement, although with Hungering Void and Surrender to Madness also being removed I’m saddened at what Void Eruption currently is to what it has been in the past. I’m hoping the answer to Shadow Priests in Dragonflight isn’t to abandon the Voidform playstyle we’ve had since Legion, but rather improve on it in the modern game in a way that is not game breaking. HV and S2M certainly had their issues, but by seeing them just removed and not reworked or replaced with things that could buff Voidform is sad to see.

Things that have not changed in this build

Aside from the changes we did see in this build, I wanted to highlight things that still are points of frustration within the community around the tree.

  • Idol spells need some iteration and clarification on design. I went over this in the post here and this post as well
  • Still unclear when Dark Void makes sense. I still like the interaction with Misery and Shadow Crash spreading to 4 targets, and I’m unsure why I would give that up for Dark Void. The more I think about it and play with it on beta the more I’d rather have Dark Void removed but instead increase the targets that are dotted to Shadow Crash.
  • Even with the changes to the pathing picking any of the utility options in the top section of the tree are a DPS loss. We have so many nodes in the top section specifically that makes it impossible to pick these utility options without giving up damage later in the tree aside from picking Silence OR Dispersion to get Misery/Dark Void pathing opened up. This means there are 3 nodes that picking them up additionally are a DPS loss. While this is a challenging problem to solve I think if the amount of nodes were shortened in this section or later sections we could get the “option” of picking which one to talent into to move onto the next section. The class tree in particular does this really well IMO.
  • AoE is still lacking some definition or a way for the damage to really be competitive. I’m not sure if this means buffing or reworking Mind Sear or tying these spells into our base kit in a better way. A similar problem is with the little damage done with Psychic Link or Pain of Death that could be the answer for AoE. There are some good ideas but it doesn’t feel like they are fitting together into our kit. Below I’ve listed the current AoE ideas present in the tree. None of these are necessarily bad, but they don’t feel like they are focused enough to be competitive and when chained together do not feel cohesive or intuitive.
    • Shadowflame Prism (5 target AoE from funnel spells)
    • Mind Sear (uncapped AoE)
    • Psychic Link/Pain of Death (funnel)
    • Idol of N’Zoth, Shadow Crash, Dark Void, Misery, and Maddening Touch (Spread DoTs = WIN)
    • Void Eruption (burst)
108 Likes

So holy and disc are losing shining force so Resto shaman can get thunderstorm?

147 Likes

Thank you for providing an update

As a Holy Priest player I agree on this issue. We have the most amount of heal + damage buttons on our bar and trying to squeeze in Mind Blast, Mind Games, Shadow Mend, and Power Word Life is a bit too much. Also, you have active abilities like Empyreal Blaze & Divine Word to budget in as well on-top of Apotheosis being actually budgetable now.

Shadow Mend is made entirely redundant by abilities like Lightweaver which makes your Heal do more than Shadow Mend. Holy Word Serenity basically does what Power Word Life does without the 35% hp bar restriction.

I like the approach, but the issue is regarding the math. You get 1 charge of Lightweaver per Flash Heal so if you do 30 casts a minute it’s 15 casts of Flash Heal and 15 casts of Heal.

The way this worked before was you built up your 5 charges of Flash Heal then every 20s you casted another Flash Heal. So overall you’re casting Flash Heal probably twice as much as you did before which leads to a higher mana consumption rate. I’m just afraid without Fae Guardians we’re going to be OOMing super fast if we play Lightweaver in a raid healing environment.

Talents like Crisis Management offering a +15% crit chance offset the loss of HPS since you’re using Flash Heal more often than you did before which does less healing than Heal.

I would prefer it be 1 Flash Heal = 2 charges because it gets a little bit finger tangling to be going Flash Heal, Heal, Flash Heal, Heal, etc. constantly. My mind starts mixing thing things up.

Moving it all the way to the bottom pushes it out of the budget of most Holy Priest players. Where it was before was perfect before you could go Guardian Spirit → Xanshi → Divine Hymn.

Abilities like Lightweaver, Divine Word, etc. are much more important and powerful for raid and dungeon healing than putting a talent into a once a 10 minute self revive.

I understand it’s mainly for PvP balance and I honestly would prefer X’anshi NOT work in arenas.

This really isn’t an apple to oranges situation. You deliberately added an interrupt to every single healer ingame except for Priests when I felt like there was no need to do that.

So from a utility standpoint it’s a bit of an awkward situation when Paladins, Monks, Druids, Evokers, and Shamans all have 15-45s interrupts and Priests have none.

If you want a fair playing field than remove all the interrupts except for Shamans and maybe Evokers.

I honestly was hoping Vault of Heavens would make a come back. It was loads of fun for BG flag carrying.

Leap of Faith is really a one trick pony that rarely gets used in raids. I can see myself using Vault of Heavens way more often to simply save myself.

I don’t really have any complaints about this. I prefer Void Tendrils over Shining Force.

I’m fine with not having Dispersion on a Holy Priest. We have enough buttons as is.

What we want is an actual defensive that can reduce incoming damage. I was pushing keys in Season 3 and once we got to +25s on Tyrannical weeks I was getting smashed in one hit for my whole hp bar by some boss abilities because Guardian Spirit and Desperate Prayer were both on cd and -10% reduction from the Fade conduit wasn’t helping.

A -20% damage reduction for 8s would go miles to help with this issue. Priest survivability in higher keys has been an issue since BFA. I remember doing +25s in BFA and getting obliterated by boss mechanics as well.

12 Likes

In this post it is frequently mentioned about PvP balance when it comes to utility and design but no where in here is PvE utility discussed or highlighted. It feels like this post is lacking perspective on the challenges Priests face in PvE content when it comes to utility and is pushing those issues aside just to make balancing PvP easier. If the reasoning for spells not coming back is just PvP focused I get not wanting to rock the boat, but there needs to be some effort on the PvE side to make up for that.

Shadow Priest still has nothing they bring to a group aside from Silence and Dispersion over Holy/Discipline Priests in terms of utility. A kick and a defensive is something that every ranged DPS has in terms of PvE viability, where is the flavor of it feeling good to have a Shadow Priest in your Mythic+ group or your Raid group?

118 Likes

Yet you gave hunters an AoE stun last week…? Looks like you’re just improvising on the spot to give excuses.

You are taking it away from priests, giving it to hunters and then tell people who main priests “Too bad too many people already have an AoE stun, you can’t have one”

115 Likes

I’m VERY grateful to see a feedback post. Thank you and hope this is an indication of more class and spec feedback in the future!

3 Likes

This wouldn’t be as big an issue if you applied this philosophy equally across the board. Most melee specs seem to fly under the radar when you do these types of prunes, however.

Edit: I don’t want to be overwhelmingly negative, so I want to add that I appreciate the long post on the team’s thought process for the work being done to the priest talent trees. I may not agree with all the changes, but the dialog is great.

52 Likes

I would agree with what’s presented here, and with some small pathing adjustments (such as moving Unfurling Darkness for example from the center path of the tree) as well as addressing the impact of the bottom capstone section of the tree, I think we’re headed in a reasonably good direction, with a heavy caveat around the disappointing planned timing of said changes around Dark Ascension and Void Eruption.

One major question I have right now is around how Shadow is meant to play on large AOE pulls (10+ targets). In Shadowlands, Shadow had a pretty straightforward approach of slamming cooldowns and spamming Mind Sear and Searing Nightmare, but in Dragonflight our options for hitting a large amount of targets at the same time are extremely limited (Mind Sear, Idol of N’zoth).

I would ask that you consider revisiting target caps on existing effects (Dark Void, and Shadowflame Prism for example) to allow for Shadow to evenly deal damage to a large group of enemies simultaneously outside of just Mind Sear. Even changing Shadowflame Prism to a root-scaling ability after 5 targets would go a long way in addressing this particular pain point of mine.

12 Likes