Feedback: Priests

Personally I consider shadows mastery to be the limitation in the current design, especially with devouring plague upwards of 80% uptime

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I go through nearly every relevant node in both tree’s, so I apologize for the length!

Class Tree - Shadow POV
TL;DR - There is good stuff in the class tree with the availability to choose specific utility depending on the situation. The bottom section is a bit locked in without much reason to change nodes, but overall is somewhat ok. I would like a few talents throughout the tree to be reworked, both from a personal perspective and to expand the opportunities for Shadow to bring something to a fight (off healing and more utility as an example).

TOP NODES

Shadowfiend - This is a baseline CD that you fire and forget. Due to this it feels terrible as a 3 minute CD. Mindbender works roughly the same way, but you don’t have the same level of expectation for it since it has a drastically shorter CD (1 minute). SFP interacts with both SF and Mindbender in an interesting way, but overall I feel that Shadowfiend itself has a negligible impact relative to its cooldown length.

Shadow Word: Death - Shadowlands reintroduced the idea of SW:D reflecting full damage if the target did not die, unlike previous expansions dating back to Mists. Consider reverting the change to the previous versions, where it reflects damage only if the target dies, as currently it feels awful to be low health but want to cast this ability for its damage/proc effect.

Death and Madness - I like the reset when the target doesn’t die, but I don’t think I like this version more than the previous (live) version, where it resets and grants 40 insanity upon death of the target.

Body and Soul - This is fine as a node, though I wish it was switched with Angelic Feather in the tree for pathing reasons.

Sheer Terror - Underwhelming, as I’m rarely if ever hitting feared targets so I don’t break the CC I just cast. It also works against the idea of the current Idol of Y’Shaarj, where you can’t break fear effects. Taking that Idol devalues this choice node, if left in their current forms.

Void Tendrils - Having it affect all targets is good, but casting it at the player location feels really awkward. Forced to run into melee as a priest in order to CC is not fun.

Leap of Faith - This could be an interesting choice node with an option to grip the player to the target instead (Vault of Heavens Legendary power), and thus provide an opportunity to choose something that saves other players or unique utility to save ourselves.

MIDDLE NODES

Vampiric Embrace - This feels pretty weak overall for Shadow and could be buffed in some capacity. I would like to see some raid utility out of this, but if that’s too strong then adding a party utility component would be welcome here. You could also make it more powerful and move it to a capstone node in the class tree.

Dominate Mind - It feels like a long cooldown for the duration of the spell on the target. The only other similar ability I know of is from Death Knights Control Undead (limited to undead targets only), so while this spell is stronger in who it can be used on, the duration of control feels too short compared to the length of cooldown. To clarify, I prefer a longer duration over a shorter CD, as it makes the choice of WHO you are Mind Controlling more impactful to the pull that you’re doing, and the consequence of choosing that target over another is more pronounced.

Apathy - Apathy is pretty awkward to play around and seems uninspired. I don’t hate it, I just don’t see a use case for it since it’s proc based (crit from a Mind Blast) and thus can’t really plan around it (you technically could with Mind Spike stacks if you needed the slow, but I digress).

I would really like to see Silence here on the class tree to bring it baseline with every other class/spec in the game. I don’t think that priests bring so much to the table that they can’t have an interrupt available in the class tree.

BOTTOM NODES

Angelic Bulwark - I’m glad Angelic Bulwark received a bit of a buff (now 20% health per blue post), but I think it’s still slightly undertuned, mainly because it’s a passive that I can’t use as I want (read: “skill expression”). I would like to see it closer to 30% since it’s such a long cooldown, but that could be straight copium. I’d find a passive/active node interesting as well, something that gives a passive DR but allows me to activate a bigger DR at the cost of the passive DR for a short time.

Mindgames - This spell is… fine. I wish it was a utility capstone instead, like a stronger Vampiric Embrace or a different utility option (Dispersion anyone?). As it is, it will always be taken for Shadow and doesn’t really allow much flexibility in the bottom of the tree. It’s also not really something we interact with outside of using it on CD, which isolates the spell more and makes me less interested than ones that interact with my kit. This is compounded when you consider the amount of buttons and procs we have in our current spec tree, as throwing Mindgames into our spell rotation simply feels like we’re adding another Mind Blast cast without the Mind Blast talents tie-in (aka a worse feeling Mind Blast). In PvP it feels much better, as we can actually play around the intended effect of the spell and create meaningful interactions against our target. For Holy it’s nice to have a good damaging spell you can cast, but it doesn’t meaningfully interact with the rest of the kit (as far as I can tell). Disc healers might benefit the most from this in PvE, but I’m less familiar with that spec so I’ll reserve comment.

Halo/Divine Star - This choice node suffers the same problems as Mindgames. It isn’t a bad spell, but it doesn’t meaningfully impact our base kit or other talents. It’s satisfying to press only because it does decent damage/healing and it’s nostalgia that comes from its history. I wouldn’t mind if it wasn’t there, but otherwise it’s just a mandatory throughput pickup.

Fade - Fade being used as a DR is alright, though I wish we had a dedicated button for a DR instead and kept Fade as a threat removal tool only. Regardless, at the moment I feel the Fade nodes are all a bit weak due to focusing on increasing the length of time rather than increasing the DR.

Void Shift - It’s interesting and I can see picking it up in PVP and specific scenarios, though the cooldown is lengthy and significantly decreases the value outside of PVP scenarios or specific use cases. It’s not a bad capstone, but one I generally am uninterested in unless in content where it has huge viability. Put another way, I’m either 100% taking the capstone or never touching it, no inbetween “choice” against other capstones.

Surge of Life - I would love this to have some sort of interaction with Shadow, since there could be use cases that we would benefit greatly from an instant Flash Heal. Giving Shadow a reason to attempt going down this side of the tree would be very interesting and could be competitive with other nodes depending on the use case of the content I’m doing.

Power Word: Life - Due to it being strictly a throughput heal for a capstone, currently I have no incentives to take it as Shadow. I might consider it if I had spare points due to less throughput options in the bottom of the tree, but even if I did it would be a hard sell as both the heal is pretty weak (Flash Heal is for 203% spell power compared to 150% here) and the 400% is hard to hit consistently.

Spec Tree - Shadow POV
TL;DR - The reworked top of the tree is better, but doesn’t solve the fundamental issue of not allowing flexibility in choosing the nodes you want vs have to take. The middle and bottom capstone area overall is better than before, but there are too many nodes and point requirements throughout the tree, especially in comparison to similar specs for other classes. In addition, I feel like there are a little too many competing proc’s we want to hit along with spells we want to cast within our rotation in a wide variety of content:

  • Potential Procs: Vampiric Insight, Surge of Darkness, Mind Melt, Unfurling Darkness, Mind Devourer, Mind Flay: Insanity
  • Potential Spells: Vampiric Touch/SW:P, DP, Void Bolt, Void Torrent/Shadow Crash, Mind Blast, Mindgames, Halo/Divine Star, Shadow Word: Death, Damnation

Maintenance buff management is not fun gameplay. One to two might be fine, but consider that we are also managing DoT’s alongside these buffs, hence feeling like we are slowly being overloaded with maintenance creep, even if these buffs are not hard to maintain.

  • Potential Buffs: Coalescing Shadows, Dark Evangelism, Piercing Shadows

Individually it seems like all this would be fine to play with, but combined it makes our rotation feel extremely busy, with some parts of your rotation during your CD’s so busy you reasonably can’t or don’t want to hit all your available buttons and have to choose which spells/procs/buffs you ignore/let drop.

TOP NODES

The new pathing requires you to take either Dispersion or Silence, which might sound better than the previous build from a utility perspective, but essentially ensures you will never take more utility here without sacrificing some dps nodes elsewhere in the tree. Additionally, it’s extremely hard to justify taking the utility choice nodes in the top of the tree [Psychic Horror/Last Word, Intangibility/Mental Fortitude, Hallucinations/Tithe Evasion], as you are basically locked into taking the available throughput talents. Tithe Evasion might be an exception if SW:D remains unchanged and the reflected damage received is great enough to warrant taking this over a dps node, but that would feel extremely bad.

Devouring Plague - Fun talent and good insanity dump, though it feels a bit weak in its DoT damage. I get pretty high uptimes on it, which is really good for ST situations but almost feels like a small loss in multi-target due to how the current Mastery works, since it feels like we are essentially missing out on 10%+ damage across all targets not affected by DP. That isn’t a strike against this spell per say, but more so against how it works in relation to our Mastery.

Misery/Dark Void - Misery is a great talent and always feels good to take, as it synergies well with our Mastery and reduces our maintenance GCD’s overall. In comparison, Dark Void feels undertuned and something I generally don’t want to pick up over Misery, especially in its current target-capped form. I personally would like to see Misery be its own talent.

Auspicious Spirits/Tormented Spirits - A really good choice node!

Mind Sear - I enjoy the change to Mind Sear and like how we have an AoE Insanity dump now, however the feeling of pressing Mind Sear is terrible compared to pressing DP and generating a Shadowy Apparitions army. I LOVE the look of sending a “shadow army” to assault the targets via these Shadowy Apparitions, something that you don’t get casting the new Mind Sear. Overall it’s fine, but I would like to see more talents that give me a unique, compelling reason to press Mind Sear other than an Insanity dump.

Coalescing Shadows - This could be an interesting talent, but due to its proc-based nature leaves a lot to be desired. Ultimately I think I’m comparing it too much to what it seemingly is trying to replicate; Shadow Orbs. So, setting aside that comparison for a second, this node boils down to a maintenance buff that you need to keep up throughout the fight. While it does have the damage increase angle for Mind Blast or Mind Spike, truthfully in gameplay you aren’t tracking those stacks as you have no way to directly control how you get them, and are just sending your spells when applicable to keep up the baseline buff. This degrades the talent to simply a buff you are required to maintain for periodic damage spells, while giving your MB and Mind Spikes “random” damage increases throughout the fight. I dislike this as it feels bland and potentially adds to our growing list of buffs and procs we are maintaining/tracking.

Mind Spike - Mind Spike looks to be positioned in the tree as “central” to our core rotation, playing around procs you get with Surge of Darkness and perhaps more while in Dark Ascension. Yet the baseline ability of it extinguishes our DoTs, counter to our Mastery. I dislike the philosophy that there can be a baseline effect on an arguably mandatory talent pick up that removes a huge damage multiplier from our target (via DoTs through our Mastery). While some, maybe even most, could realistically understand and play around this concept, ultimately I feel it’s detrimental to have a spell’s baseline counterintuitive to baseline Shadow Priest playstyle. I want to acknowledge that I am personally not a fan of abilities that remove our DoT’s, much like the (recently removed) Painbreaker’s Psalm, so having a similar mechanic on the talent tree rubs me the wrong way. There are a variety of ways you could potentially solve this, but regardless of what is decided, I would like to see Mind Spike either work with (rather than against) our base toolkit, or reasonably not take it in the talent tree if you choose not to engage with that playstyle. Another concern, though smaller in comparison, is the added crit chance it gives Mind Blast. It’s another buff that we could track to play around, but ultimately wont, which makes me forget it’s even there. I’d like to see a different interaction with Mind Blast rather than an increased crit chance.

Vampiric Insight - This should give Mind Blast a second charge baseline for all the reasons posted by others in multiple feedback channels (in short, better flow for the spec). It feels really bad without a second charge, as you’re basically required to use the proc immediately so you get MB back on cooldown, rather than allowing a little flexibility in your rotation. I do like the proc off our Vampiric Touch periodic damage, which is better than our current live version of Dark Thoughts. I would be interested in seeing a node augmenting Vampiric Insight to give an additional player-driven chance for a Vampiric Insight stack, similar to our current 2pc on live.

MIDDLE NODES

Both Puppet Master and Harnessed Shadows are fine talents and buff Coalescing Shadows in a satisfying, arguably mandatory, way.

Damnation - This is a spell that I personally don’t like playing with, as it increases my button bloat without doing anything interesting or unique. It essentially does the same thing I can do baseline (DoTing the target) just quicker and without a cost. I would only take and use this spell if it outperformed all the other remaining choices in the tree, or required for my build (which is likely).

Mind Melt - Essentially it feels like an extra way to proc a nerfed Vampiric Insight with a much shorter duration, and thus find it kind of confusing and wondering why it’s here. The duration of it is extremely short as well, which makes you have to use the buff before it expires, sometimes right as Mind Blast is coming off CD.

Surge of Darkness - SoD was briefly touched upon earlier, but in general I don’t necessarily mind the proc nature of the talent. I think it works ok with the current version of Mind Spike, but at the moment there are times where I don’t even want to hit this proc due to having higher priority spells to cast (particularly within current cooldown usage such as Voidform). In addition, this adds to our problem of competing procs and spells we want to cast, which is an issue in the current talent tree. I dislike the game telling me to hit this spell, yet knowing that it really isn’t worth my GCD unless I have used all my other, higher priority spells.

Mental Decay - Great talent, it feels really good to extend your DoT’s outside of CD’s with filler spells. This is probably one of the best feeling talents in the tree for me, as it’s a nice to channel your Mind Flay or Mind Sear onto your target(s) and not worry about your DoT’s falling off during that time.

Dark Evangelism - It seems like it can be an interesting talent in conjunction with Dark Ascension, however I have an issue with the acquisition of the buff. The recent change to have Void Torrent give you the stacks is really good for that spell and general ST fights, but I’m concerned with content outside of ST or where you wouldn’t necessarily want to take Void Torrent. I would instead like to see the buff generated from the spells it enhances directly, similar in concept to Warlock’s Agony ramping damage but tied to the player. Currently, it’s just another maintenance buff we have to keep up via Mind Flay, Void Torrent (if talented), or Mind Sear (if talented).

Dark Ascension - This sounds cool and can sometimes be fun to play around, but surprisingly restrictive in the spells it works with and ultimately leaves me feeling like it’s missing something. Having it consume your DE buff feels awkward too. I ultimately end up not caring about DE during this cooldown window since I’m trying to focus on casting non-periodic damage spells, which just feels super off as I no longer really care about my DoT’s (outside of maintaining Mastery on the target) in what seems to be a “major cooldown” of the talent tree. It flows in its own weird way I guess, so perhaps this is just a mindset change you need to have if you take this cooldown, but overall it ends up feeling lackluster when playing. I also dislike a cast time on the spell, as pressing it feels very empty and unimpressive.

Psychic Link - Absolutely great talent that really opens up your AoE and Cleave rotation. It feels really good to put up your DoT’s and use those same tools to spread damage from your other, more ST spells.

Void Torrent/Shadow Crash - With the addition to Void Torrent proccing Dark Evangelism, this node seems more balanced and competitive than before. Overall not a bad choice, could see taking either option depending on the situation and need.

Unfurling Darkness - While I like the direction of the talent, in practice you won’t see or use many procs from it with the current playstyle of multi-target/AoE rotations. Seems like a neat idea but doesn’t pan out in reality. It’s more interesting from a PvP perspective, though.

Maddening Touch - Good two cost node that allows insanity generation in an AoE environment. It feels rewarding to maintain your Vampiric Touch on the targets and get insanity in return.

Whispers of the Damned - It’s not a terrible node, but not inspiring either. In ST builds it feels like a mandatory pick up to get to Deathspeaker, but otherwise I’d rather try to use my points in other places before using them here.

Piercing Shadows - Feels terrible, as this is the definition of a maintenance buff and therefore simply has no impact. You could remove it, buff our shadow damage by the same amount baseline, and nothing would change.

BOTTOM NODES

Mindbender - Mindbender feels a lot better than Shadowfiend in general to play with, and I’d love to take this talent (or really make it baseline). I think the main reason I like it is the cooldown length of Shadowfiend makes it forgettable in practically any fight, so the reduced CD of Mindbender is extremely nice in comparison.

Idol of Y’Shaarj - This should not be a choice node against Mindbender, as it synergies well with the reduced cooldown of Mindbender and could be a very interesting playstyle if taken. Unlike most players, I actually think this Idol only needs a few small changes to be viable, but only if you could take it with Mindbender. I hate to comment a direct fix, but for example: Have Mindbender be the top node in this chain, keep some version of Fiending Dark for reduced Mindbender cooldown (or increased Mindbender duration) based on player actions, make the 5 second duration increase for Mindbender baseline on this Idol (so 20 sec total), add a new default effect for targets that don’t fall under the current 4 options, and finally have this Idol be a choice node against Shadowflame Prism. This refines the Idol/SFP choice node as the “pet-centric” playstyle where you either are constantly “mini-buffing” yourself and your pet via the Idol, or using your pet to burst cleave targets during the duration of Mindbender via SFP. I think this could be a very interesting take on playing around Mindbender and is worth testing.

Fiending Dark - I dislike Fiending Dark reducing your pet cooldown, as it desyncs your Mindbender/Shadowfiend from your other 2 minute CD’s (more Mindbender than Shadowfiend). I would instead prefer moving Shadowflame Prism’s effect here, increasing the duration of your pet via player-driven actions (casting DP for example). Otherwise, I am not a fan of leaving it up to crit chance for a reduced CD.

Shadowflame Prism - SFP is fun and can be interesting to play around, though I think the pet extension is a bit strong in light of the node above it (Fiending Dark reducing the CD of your pet). As talked about, I think this could be an interesting choice against an updated Idol of Y’Shaarj, as both would define how you play around your Mindbender talent.

Deathspeaker - It’s a fun talent to spec into! Good synergy with other talents in the tree and works both in ST and multi target (via the Pain of Death node).

Mind Flay: Insanity - I dislike Mind Flay: Insanity as a talent, both in concept (buffing your filler) and in playstyle. It’s either too strong where you don’t want to cast anything else and will do degen gameplay to get as much out of the duration, or it’s so weak we don’t play around it and just cast it as our new filler where applicable. If it’s the latter, then what’s the point of essentially having a node that baseline increases your filler damage at the bottom of the tree? This is probably one of the worst feeling nodes for me personally.

Derangement - A very cool talent that helps with the punchyness of DP and dumping your insanity faster via Mind Sear. It feels really good to take and I want to pick it up in basically every build.

Monomania - It feels lackluster in AoE situations since it doesn’t affect other targets besides the primary target, and is another node that augments our filler Mind Flay (which I dislike). Additionally, having it as a 2 point node is a significant investment for what it does. The concept behind it is cool and unique with Mind Sear, so I would be interested in taking it, but not as a 2 point node. I’d personally rather see it replace Mind Flay: Insanity and make it a choice node against Deathspeaker.

Pain of Death - Cool talent, it’s been fun to play with, especially tied to SFP. One of the only talents that incentivizes you to make sure SW:P is on the target, which makes it unique.

Mastermind - Being a flat crit chance and crit damage increase for Mind Blast and Mind Spike seems out of place for the bottom of the tree. The amount of damage might be compelling (pending tuning), but it’s not an exciting node for what should be defining talents in the bottom portion of the tree. I’m not a fan of the placement or point count for the talent either.

Insidious Ire - Great node in the bottom of the tree, has some unique things that you can do outside of pure ST, which makes it an interesting design. It synergizes well with our current mastery, a big plus.

Mind Devourer - I think this is excellent proc design, where you perform a player action (Mind Blast) and have a chance to use a resource-spending ability free (DP). Could be an fine pick up if we didn’t have so many nodes in the bottom portion of the tree, particularly the middle row.

Idol of C’thun - I dislike how this buffs our Mind Flay (filler) and doesn’t make sense with the recent change to Mind Sear.

Idol of N’zoth - Overall I enjoy the design, but I’d like to see stacks not wasted when the target dies.

Lunacy - An uninteresting capstone talent that doesn’t really affect your rotation. I enjoy the augmentation of the ability towards your spenders, but as a capstone talent it’s underwhelming. I also dislike how we might potentially not want to take this talent due to overcapping on insanity, thus ignoring talents that reduce our ability to dump it.

Idol of Yogg-Saron - This is a really cool concept, tying nicely into Shadowy Apparition generation with a really cool visual. The damage seems a bit low, and I’m not sure if you can have multiple of these out at a time. If you can, that would explain the low damage, but it seems unlikely due to the duration of the pet and the amount of SA’s required to summon one.

Void Eruption - Currently this cooldown feels a bit underwhelming overall. Its biggest boon comes from activating your Mastery on all targets, but outside of that and a bit of AoE damage it feels like it’s missing something. Void Bolt is a long cooldown that you only hit a few times during the buff, but otherwise there really isn’t a big change of playstyle or rotation when you hit this button, which feels like a failure for a major CD. While the nodes below it do help in some ways, I feel like it’s in an incomplete state.

Ancient Madness - This is awkward to play with, as I dislike the feeling that I’m slowly losing damage in my Voidform (which I am via lower and lower crit chance). The “burst” aspect is nice for the first few seconds, but falls off rather rapidly and ultimately is underwhelming.

Hungering Void - I think the concept of increasing your damage onto one target can be interesting, however this is predominantly covered by DP application (via Mastery), and since it’s tied to a decently long CD via Void Bolt it feels bad if you use it on the wrong target or if your target dies. Overall it’s not a very interesting capstone talent, but only taken to make Voidform feel more complete.

Surrender to Madness - I’d like to see this reworked into something that affects Void Eruption directly, rather than just putting you in another Voidform with extra requirements. Bonus points if it’s something that ramps, the concept being you are “surrendering to the madness”.

Thank you for all your work! I’m excited for further testing and improvements to priests for Dragonlands!

8 Likes

Hi -

Played around on beta a little today. Two things REALLY stuck out to me -

  1. mind blast feels very very weak even with all the talents supporting it. No absorb on it is a loss that even all the talents that synergize with it can’t measure up to.
  1. I didn’t realize…WHERE IS SHINING FORCE??? Please tell me this is a mistake :frowning: that’s such an extremely nice piece of utility in m+….

Played around with shadow a bit as well. I strongly dislike the feel of vampiric insight without 2 mind blast charges. I would WAY WAY rather have dark thoughts than VI with 1 charge (unfortunately)

Some thoughts on trees:

While I recognize removing spirit shell was the right move, I am saddened by it, as someone who has pugged a decent amount of heroic after coming back from a brief hiatus. Shell is a very helpful tool for protecting our ramps (which are EXTREMELY expensive) in unorganized content, and I wonder if there’s another way to accomplish that besides spirit shell. Making our ramps less expensive (like by keeping renew close to its current cost) is a decent solution!

Please though if you hear one piece of all of this feedback, let it be putting the absorb back on mind blast OR massively tuning up its damage and the strength of the Stolen Psyche node.

Also, pw:s’s strength and the strength of rapture as a CD are both just not feeling like they’re in a good spot.

Why is sins of the many a prerequisite for evang? Those accomplish/are good in opposite situations.

Also, expiation seems like a negative in all content instead of positive. Consuming dot time and spending extra time re dotting when our dots are so weak (again, even with all buffs except the improved swp nodes that are a complete waste of 2 points)

I do think the 5s CDR in bright pupil will solve a number of our problems in all forms of content though. I really want to applaud that talent being added (along with its counterpart)

2 Likes

Disagree about SS. It needs to stay dead. but im all for the mind blast absorb being how it was early alpha

At a guess its not negative in finishing a mob or player off. It can add to some burst damage going out. Would be a niche talent

1 Like

Divine Star Shadow Animation

With the return of Halo and Divine Star for Shadow and only using Halo up until this point, I decided to take some time to play around with Divine Star and see what the Shadow version of this glorious spell would look like.

Holy/Discipline Divine Star

Shadow Divine Star
Imagine my horror when I pressed this spell and out popped an effect that looks nothing like the icon, the Holy/Disc version, or anything Priestly. It looks more like a Warlock spell than anything.

I can only hope that this is a placeholder animation while the new animation is being created. If this is not the case, please consider revisiting this spell effect for Shadow.

9 Likes

Leveling and Dungeons

After spending time leveling and doing some dungeons on beta I wanted to provide some feedback about these experiences as a Shadow Priest. The feedback below is mostly focusing on the dungeon runs I’ve done with various builds but a lot of the feedback is similar in open world leveling content as well.

Dungeons

  • Mind Sear’s damage feels incredibly weak in comparison to Devouring Plague, especially if you are going for Shadowy Apparitions focused builds since Mind Sear gives 0. The damage just does not feel good enough for an Insanity spender. This spell also seems bugged since the latest build and is no longer scaling with haste, making it even harder to judge if that is intended or not. Ultimately after playing with the changes I’m not sure Mind Sear has enough ooomph to make it feel good as an Insanity spender in our kit yet.
  • With the assumed bugs with the Idol of Yogg-Saron it is more or less unusable in dungeon environments. By the time I get enough stacks the pet lasts for such a little time it barely makes any difference at all. Really need clarification on how it is supposed to work as it seems incredibly bugged. You only get 1 stack per casted spell that generates an apparition, rather than 1 per apparition which is how the tooltip makes it sound.
  • Dark Ascension as a cooldown seems incredibly weak in dungeons. Buffing my non-dot spells does not do much when those spells by itself do not seem to be hitting very hard at all. Even playing a Psychic Link and Pain of Death focused build these spells are not cleaving for near enough damage paired with cooldowns to feel meaningful enough.
  • Idol of N’Zoth has quite a few problems, but because it is still scaling with Attack Power it is very hard to judge how strong it will be and give meaningful feedback. It just does not do relevant damage.
  • Maddening Touch is an amazing Insanity generation talent, and feels almost required in dungeon environments. It was easily my highest source of Insanity throughout my dungeons.
  • Halo is still one of my favorite spells thematically but I’m really hoping it gets changed in instanced content to only hit enemies that you are currently in combat with, otherwise it will likely not be used much. This is particularly a problem in dungeons like Uldaman with lots of corridors that Halo can pull through.
  • Idol of C’thun is still one of the cooler looking idols, but even taking a “Mind Flay/Sear” build with Mind Flay: Insanity, Mental Decay, Derangement, etc I did not feel like I was getting enough procs for it to feel meaningful. This is especially an issue with the Mind Sear tendril since our Mind Sear casts are much fewer than before.
  • Shadow Crash paired with Misery is a great tool to get started in packs, but with low levels of haste this cooldown feels a bit too long. This is likely just a leveling problem but I consistently found myself starting packs and being 5-10s off the cooldown. This still feels so much better than the Dark Void alternative and it feels like Dark Void really needs something extra or perhaps remove the choice node entirely. Shadow Crash being capped at 4 targets is not ideal but I was able to mostly make it work where possible, but it did make pulling a pack more awkward as I still had a couple globals per pack spent setting up DoTs than I’d expect. Vampiric Touch is such a large part of our damage profile right now I understand the hesitation of adding more targets but I think it would go a long way if just a few more targets were added to this. Pairing a change like that with more damage on our cleave talents like Psychic Link can really enabled our funnel/cleave style we were excited about with the rework.
  • Shadowflame Prism paired without Mindbender and therefore Idol of Y’Shaarj feels much much weaker. Shadowfiend has already been lagging behind but this feels like a false choice if you want to go down the far left choice.
  • One thing that feels like is missing with all the new talents is more choice around Shadowy Apparitions in AoE environments. I think adding something that encourages you to get these procs in AoE would start bringing these talents together into a build, especially if it was something as simple as them exploding for AoE damage on hit.
  • In general it feels difficult to pick up Silence, Dispersion, and Tithe Evasion in our talent tree with the amount of power added in our tree. We have so many nodes especially towards the bottom of the tree it feels like you are giving up quite a lot of damage to talent into these utility options.
  • I much prefer the old version of Death and Madness to the new version. Getting the CD reset on SW:D as a reward for sniping mobs felt so satisfying, especially with Shadowflame Prism. Giving this up has felt so much worse for me personally since the CD reset is not per target. If even that was fixed it would still feel weak in comparison to the talent I loved to pick in Shadowlands.
13 Likes

I got to >2k as disc in season 1 and 2 this expansion and just want to say that expiation doesn’t sound useful for pvp. Our dots simply do not hit hard enough.

Losing the mind blast absorb is a huge blow to disc in pvp and m+ (as I’ve said)

1 Like

I wanted to add a few additional points to my previous feedback:

Dispersion - It’s a good DR and something I appreciate having, however I’m left wondering why it doesn’t work similar to Aspect of the Turtle for Hunters? They both pacify the player and reduce damage (lower for Turtle to be fair), but Hunter’s Turtle has you deflect all attacks while Dispersion simply heals you. The heal feels pretty bad, as generally you’re trying to Disperse before the hit to take advantage of the DR rather than after (in PvP the heal does feel better). It feels like the spell should operate similar to Turtle since they both pacify the player and have the same feeling when pressed.

Shining Force - A unique class ability that isn’t on the current class talent tree, something I think is a missed opportunity.

Power Infusion - I like the ability to help and assist other team members with this spell, but I dislike the feeling that I’m giving away my personal cooldown in fights. Twins of the Sun Priest helps with that and I’m personally fine with the spell as is, though I’m slightly concerned around tuning this for raids/groups. It seems we will have to be somewhat nerfed in comparison to other classes due to bringing such a powerful button you can cast on another player. I could be completely wrong about tuning and it turns out fine, but I’d be interested in seeing Power Infusion be self cast with Twins of the Sun Priest adding a unique party buff to PI, rather than PI’ing another target directly. You could introduce a node in Holy/Disc spec tree’s that returns the functionality of casting PI on others as a unique tool they bring to the group/raid.

2 Likes

As Shadow, the class tree feels anemic.

I’m basically throwing away points into things I don’t care about because otherwise I have nothing to spend them on. I don’t even like Mindgames, it certainly doesn’t seem like it’s going to mean much to Shadow, but I have 4 points in it just the same because what else am I going to sink points into? Holy Nova?

7 Likes

Personally, I am not a huge fan of Mindgames, would much prefer it and the Divine Star/Halo choice node were to swap places and have augments to them rather than to Mindgames. Those two abilities are much more class-defining than Mindgames which is a fairly boring single-target nuke.

5 Likes

Specific Holy Priest Feedback

Healing Chorus Talent:
The nerf was unwarranted. When it was 2% buff stacking up to 50%, it was feasible to get 4 stacks with 1 Renew, 20 with 5 rolling Renews all of which were self cast by you. This has become a dead talent because the only ways of spreading Renew to get maximum value is Revitalizing Prayers talent which necessitates the use of Healing Circle talent. Taking Healing Circle talent means you cannot take the Healing Chorus talent.

This talent only gets maximum value after casting Holy Word: Salvation and it’s a bit of a problem as it won’t see any use.

Another minor issue is it was bugged when I tested 1 day ago, the counter for Healing Chorus stacks was reset when hardcasting Renew on any target.

Divine Service Talent:
Feels just a tad weak. I think you can test it with 5% increased healing per stack rather than 4% due to the fact that there will be many times where incoming damage isn’t periodic enough to move Prayer of Mending enough to get value.

Say Your Prayers Talent:
This talent is extremely weak. A 15% chance for Prayer of Mending to not consume isn’t bad, but it’s very RNG and doesn’t feel quite as impactful as any other talent we have. Boosting it to 25-30% would feel more impactful, considering that damage needs to be taken in order for the heal and chance to be used to actually take effect.

Either that, or replacing it with the Shadowlands 4pc Holy set at reduced value would be better. There was an added depth with the 4pc Holy set bonus in that it gave you the option to boost a spell after casting a Holy Word, and that choice made for intriguing gameplay. It was both impactful and balanced.

The good stuff:
Divine Word: I really like Divine Word in that it gives you leeway to choose the right healing ability for the job. I think it would fit better with some implementation of Shadowland Holy Priest 4pc bonus, but as it is now (minus the bugs), it’s a very fun to use ability. Divine Word: Sanctify is amazing to use.

Renew Talents: It’s good to buff up this woefully underutilized skill, though I would like to have seen more ways to have other heals apply Renew rather than proc based spells through Benediction talent and Revitalizing Prayers talent. It almost feels worth using, but it will still mostly feel like a waste outside of Divine Word: Serenity boost. I definitely feel there can be an interaction from a talent that would make casting Renew on a target cause Prayer of Mending to consume and move, just something to incentivize casting only Renew. Right now it’s something used when you have nothing else and can’t afford to cast Flash Heal.

Empyrean Blaze: I thought I would hate it, but the fact the Cooldown keeps proceeding even when up means it’s a solid talent to use when dps is needed. The boost to smite damage through talents is also a good touch.

Lightweaver: A solid replacement for Flash Concentration and shores up the weak single target healing that would otherwise exist without this talent. Much respect to whoever designed it.

Harmonius Apparatus: I like that it returns, really opens up the spec in that you get more choice to choose what spell to heal with. I dislike that it’s 2 points however.

Prayers of the Virtuous: Absolutely great talent. There’s a very small nitpick in that the maximum of Prayer of Mending stacks on a target remains at 10, which will lead to wasted casts, but I suppose that would make it too strong with other talent synergies. Really adds to the spec.

Prismatic Echoes: Another absolutely great talent. It ate a nerf recently, but it should still hold up and be a staple for any Holy Priest regardless of focus.

Spirited Litany: It’s a great talent on the surface. Free PI is absolutely amazing, but there’s less personal control over when you get it, especially if you’re talenting to make Prayer of Mending a strong heal. I’d rather this become an ability that makes the next cast of Prayer of Mending grant 10 seconds of PI once it has hit the necessary # of times. This could prevent PI appearing at the most inopportune or unnecessary times.

2 Likes

One of the biggest cosmetic things I used to love about my priest was Glyph of Angels which, prior to patch 8.3 (or so), would occur from every healing spell. After it barely happened at all & thus de-valued the visually appealing glyph.

It might be a small change, but such a difference would really get me back into it if this glyph were to proc more often again.

1 Like

I don’t think this talent is as weak as you think it is. I obviously agree on buffing it to 25-30% but in the chance that they don’t do that, I hope they don’t just decide to remove it lol. Prayer of Mending, despite being a heal, is holy’s main damage mitigation spell because it procs instantly once damage has been taken. If there’s any chance whatsoever to keep Prayer of Mending stacks ongoing, then that’s perfect for Holy in all directions.

Holy has a lot of passive healing with Prayer of Mending being its most useful and iconic spell. Any buffs to it are most welcome including Divine Service!

I haven’t been able to test this passive because it might be bugged on beta. It didn’t proc once in any dungeons I did. I don’t necessarily mind the RNG aspect of it but perhaps they should give Prayer of Mending healing a 5% chance to proc PI for 10 seconds?

Anywho, aside from those I do agree with most of your feedback.

With that being said, I certainly hope they remove Lightwell and bring back Divine Insight, too - a chance on Heal or Prayer of Mending to reset the CD on PoM and cause it to bounce instantly.

2 Likes

Priest Feedback: Missing things

Three more spells / interactions have come to my attention as missing in dragonflight.

  • Mass Dispel Rank 2: Mass Dispel no longer removes bubble, block, or cyclone.

  • Shining force: Missing from the holy and disc trees.

  • Greater Fade: Missing entirely from PvP talents, even for shadow.

19 Likes

Can we just make contrition baseline or get rid of it?

If it’s baseline it’s a nice bonus when we defensive penance. If it’s in the tree then we have this random node we aren’t going to take and haven’t taken since it was introduced to the spec.

It makes the rotation confusing even though if we want a group heal with penance the answer is always offensive penance.

What exactly is the intent of this talent?

2 Likes

Holy priest needs buffs

that is all

3 Likes

Some feedback on the Holy Priest talents:

Holy Tree:

The Prayer of Healing vs Lightweaver path feels a bit inconsistent

The majority of talents that directly buff Prayer of Healing are available early in the tree whereas most of the talents that impact Heal / Flash Heal are available later in the tree.

With 10 points you can get all 3 of the major Prayer of Healing talents whereas it requires a minimum of 25 points to fully invest into Lightweaver.

This makes the Prayer of Healing build more flexible in regards to what kind of approach you can take. You can pick up Lightweaver if you wanted or you can go Divine Word + Holy Word Salvation. On the flip side there’s no talents on the bottom of the tree that offer any bonus to Prayer of Healing.

With Lightweaver (especially if you’re raid healing) you have to go Lightweaver and Holy Word Salvation: thus you can’t use Divine Word which gives you a powerful buff to your single target healing.

Too many talents to buff smart AI abilities

  • Orison seems a tad bit too powerful for raid healing. It reduces your CoH cd by 3s and lets you heal 6 targets instead of 5. It also scales off of Harmonious.

  • Prayer of Mending has 5 talents buffing it (technically 6, but I don’t consider Spirited Litany to be a PoM buff) → Not good or bad, but PoM is going to be a major part of your healing now. 7 charges w/ increased healing per target and a 15% chance to leave a Renew and not to consume a charge adds up pretty fast.

Main Talent Feedback

  • Cosmic Ripple is an underwhelming talent. It only provides 2-3%~ of your overall healing. I think bringing back Piety of Mana would be nice, but nerf it a bit.

  • I don’t understand the point of the Enlightment talent and why it is in the tree to begin with. It provides a negligible amount of mana return and is the spec going to be balanced around having to take this talent?

  • Gale of Song doesn’t seem that useful on paper. Divine Hymn usually massively overheals in a raid environment (can be 50% or more overhealing) and an additional +2% healing per stack seems a tad bit overkill. I would much rather see this talent allow the option to channel Divine Hymn while moving because one of the issues in the raids is simply finding a spot where you can safely hymn. It’s especially bad on fights like crab boss or pain smith. An alternative idea is to make Gale Songs reduce the CDR of Divine Hymn.

  • Lightweaver should generate 2 charges per Flash Heal instead of 1. It feels a big janky going Flash Heal → Heal → repeat and it also means you’re spending more flash heals per minute than you would have with Flash Concentration.

  • Empyreal Blaze should branch off of Burning Vehemence instead of Prayers of the Virtuous. It can go Burning Vehemence → Searing Light → Empyreal Blaze along the right side. This makes it more flexible to budget into a dps build.

  • Rapid Recovery should be changed: it just makes your Renew do the same healing over 12s instead of 15s. It’s neither interesting nor really impactful.

  • Holy Word Salvation is a raid mandatory talent thus limiting your bottom tree choices if you’re doing PvE raid content. (Already pointed this out earlier: but just wanted to rehash it.)

  • Apotheosis is hard to budget into any kind of M+ build. You want Lightweaver, but you also want damage so you’re stuck between Divine Word + Lightweaver.

The bottom of the tree is overbloated with 2 point sinks and a lot of those 2 point sinks aren’t even that powerful

Resonant Words → 2 points for only a +30% bonus (we get double that on live) on your next Holy word is underwhelming. This talent needs to be buffed or reduced to 1 point. Pontifex is 1 point and more powerful than Resonant Words. Crisis Management is actually worth 2 points because you get a whopping +15% additional crit chance to your single target heraling.

Light of the Naaru → Should be reduced to 1 point instead of 2.

Desperate Times → Probably should be higher in the tree.

Harmonious → This talent is actually worth 2 points, but only because it provides a large CDR reduction on Holy Word Salvation.

Spirited Litany → Should be 1 point.

Searing Light → Should be 1 point.

Additional Input

  • Where’s the interrupt? Every healer ingame has an interrupt now except for Disc & Holy Priests. There needs a justifiable reason not to give these specs an interrupt.
  • The Holy Priest nerfs that aren’t replaced: The loss of Fae Guardians → no more 2 minute Divine Hymns, the lack of passive mana return, and a -20% DR you could drop on the tank during fights.
6 Likes

Buffing Aegis of Wrath wasn’t what we meant when we said “PW:S Is really weak so we don’t want to take this talent”

1 Like

with shadow priest update you can get dark ascension without getting dark evangelism. and is either 6 points to get 2/2 or 5 points to get 2/2 of dark evangelism from dark ascension this seems like a really bad change

Shadow Priest Thoughts - 9/13 Update

Here are my preliminary thoughts on the Priest and Shadow talent tree changes for this week’s build.

Priest Tree

Class tree is basically perfect at this point. The only thing I think is missing is a Silence for Priest and Vampiric Embrace being iterated on.

Vampiric Embrace as it stands doesn’t seem to fit either Priest role. Discipline and Holy don’t have enough Shadow spells to benefit from it, and it is often the case that the periods where Shadow is doing the most damage is not when healing is required.

I know this has been said already, but Vampiric Embrace really feels like it should go back to being a leech buff, the current version of it doesn’t seem useful in any meaningful capacity.

Shadow Tree

With the changes I think the first two tiers of the spec tree are really solid, barring a few exceptions. I really like how there is a clear path identity of left side being periodic effects with Coalescing Shadows and right side being direct damage with Mind Spike and Surge of Darkness.

Shadowy Insight
I think this talent is a lot better than Vampiric Insight with Vampiric Touch being such an overbudgeted spell and Shadow Word: Pain having little identity. I really hope that these procs occur more frequently on AoE otherwise it being tied to a dot is a waste imo.

Mind Melt
I really am not a fan of the cast time reduction aspect of this talent, especially at one stack. I would much prefer hard-casting my Mind Blasts except for Shadowy Insight procs, and opt into instant cast capability like the previous talent option. I am also really concerned with Mind Blast having permanent 100% crit rate now that Mind Spike no longer removes our DoTs. I think this should be a part of Surge of Darkness so we aren’t encouraged to hard cast Mind Spike to gain crits, except for maybe inside Dark Ascension.

Voidform/Dark Ascension
Now that Voidform and Dark Ascension are choice talents with one another, it’s pretty clear what the playstyle differences should be with Voidform focusing more on periodic damage, and Dark Ascension focusing on direct damage. At the moment I don’t think these talents have clear enough identities in this regard, especially with Ancient Madness now affecting them equally.

Dark Evangelism
Aside from being another maintenance buff to periodic effects by 10%, identical to Coalescing Shadows, what perplexes me is the location of Dark Evangelism and its surrounding talents. I think pathing from Psychic Link to it makes sense as a cleave option, but if I am taking a cleave build then I have to take Unfurling Darkness, which I really don’t want to do. I think this pathing specifically should be revisited.

Final Tier

Besides removing a lot of talents and a bit of reshuffling, the bottom tier of the Shadow tree remains unchanged. I think this is in an unfinished state since it lacks direction and more iteration will come, but I would like to provide feedback on its current state all the same.

Void Torrent/Damnation
I really like having Torrent and Damnation as choice nodes since they are used similarly, but it doesn’t feel good having to talent back into their cooldown reduction. I also feel like if they are going to be this far down into the tree they should have more interaction.

Idols
These really don’t feel that good to me. They’re all passive and don’t serve gameplay at all. I think their naming and icons, giving them an Old-God theme, carry these talents way too hard and don’t really justify being capstones on their own.

Mind Devourer
Speaking of weak capstones, Mind Devourer was moved to be one. I can only hope this is a temporary shift because a talent that is a conduit in Shadowlands does not deserve to be a capstone talent.

The Wall
It’s been memed on already, but every talent in the penultimate row being a 2 point doesn’t feel good at all. They’re just locking away the cool talents, but as I’ve already stated, they aren’t all that cool.

Surrender to Madness
While I am happy that Surrender to Madness was removed in the version that it was, I cannot help to feel sad that something iconic to Shadow has been lost. I was really hoping for it to receive the proper iteration its namesake deserved, instead of remaining untouched for three expansions.

What’s Missing
With so many talents being removed and no new talents being added, it is pretty clear to me that the final tier is still under iteration. I think there are two aspects of current Shadow missing in the final tier that could be build defining, worthy of capstones.

The tier set bonus Living Shadow in Shadowlands saw a brief appearance before the rework of the tree, which I think could be brought back as a talent. The animation for the Living Shadow on the back of the Priest is awesome, along with its constant searing animation, and it would be a shame to lose such a cool aesthetic.

For years Shadow has been considered a core execute spec in a group composition, but there is only one indirect execute talent in the spec tree with Pain of Death increasing the damage of Shadow Word: Death. While we also have Twist of Fate in the class tree, I do not think a 10% damage bonus will let us compete with Fire Mages, Unholy DKs, or Warriors. I would really like to see a capstone talent leaning into our execute niche, should the need arise.

8 Likes