Warcraft III Lore retconning to match WoW is a terrible idea


#341


2006 I was off by a year.
But that is the first mention of what has since become official canon.

Whoops waybackmachine messed up. Moment I’ll fix the link.

http_://web.archive.org/web/20060703110648/http://worldofwarcraft.com:80/info/story/troll/trollsandnightelves.html


#342

World of Warcraft Chronicles 1 - 2015
So even this is World of Warcraft lore, which once again follows from the Magazine entry in 2011.

So once again it’s taking WoW lore and re-inserting it into the RTS backstory, as this creates an irreconcilable difference with The War of the Ancients, a 2004 book which is also considered ‘canonical.’


#343

It’s taking Warcraft lore and inserting it into Warcraft lore. Warcraft is a multimedia series.


#344

Except the War of the Ancients doesn’t actually state that Night Elves aren’t descended from trolls. It’s also canon that Elves don’t like this theory and disagree with it. But it’s canon, from blizzard, first mentioned in 2006 from what I could dig up on short notice.


#345

Next you’re going to be telling me that Day of the Dragon’s is not a canonical series because Deathwing’s brood was destroyed at the end of the book, and yet in WoW he has multiple drakes and dragonkin, who’s growth period does not match with the timeline.

Except A. this is Khadgar and Medievh talking about it, and B. It doesn’t matter whether the Elves like it or not, the information isn’t coming from a biased character or a faulted narrator, it’s a statement of fact, the same way Broxigar’s Axe chipped Sargeras’s armor. Unless now that’s non-canon too.


#346

It’s almost like as the series moves forward, retcons can happen. The only non-canonical thing from Blizzard I think is the tabletop RPG.


#347

Warcraft 3 already featured Black Drakes and Dragons.
Ever heard of Searinox?
Your own argument even falls apart with Warcraft 3 contradicting you.

And expecting Khadgar or Medivh to be fully cognizant of the racial history of a species 10.000 years older than them is even less grounds than night elves.
But now do enlighten me what they say exactly that makes the elf species older than trolls.


#348

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lore#Non-canon


#349

Last time I checked, The Frozen Throne wasn’t updated since 2004 :thinking:

Until Reforged comes out and says Night Elves are Trolls explicitly, that’s not a part of the RTS timeline. And all of this isn’t even touching on the ridiculousness of the retcons, but that’s obviously subjective so I’m leaving it out. This is a Warcraft forum, not a World of Warcraft forum. Just remember that.

Yes, Searinox was literally one of the last ~3 drakes left over from his power ploy. And then he’s dead. But now you have at least 4 more completely unrelated drakes in from nowhere to WoW. I’d go through the forum posts tracing back every Drake, but I don’t feel like digging through 2007 WoW forum threads for you, when you can’t even be bothered to quote your own sources.


#350

Exactly. So I don’t know why you’re having trouble grasping Warcraft lore.


#351

You asked for a source and I provided a source from 2006.
You’re the one making up how War of the Ancients, which arbitrarily is canon but other books aren’t, supposedly conclusively states that Night Elves precede trolls as a civilisation.

You mention all the black dragons dying and then move the goal posts when I point out a Warcraft 3 one that features in the story. Not to mention the fact that 3 creeps and a black dragon roost to hire them from exist in the RTS.

And now basically you’re saying that anything past 2004 doesn’t count. Then there’s no point in arguing anymore.


#352

Ok this is getting a bit heated but the long and short of it seems to boil down to:
Do you accept any Blizzard canon lore of the Warcraft franchise, as it’s been developing, past 2004?
If yes, then sorry, but Elves are descended from trolls.
If no, then sorry, there is no hope for you to get any new lore at all besides headcanon to fill in the gaps where Warcraft 1, 2, 3 and books from 2004 or earlier, do not provide answers.

For sympathy’s sake. I’m still angry at Blizzard for the Draenai/Eredar retcon from TBC.


#353

Convenient to cut out the entire quote. Hey look, I can do it too. Thanks for agreeing with me!

Which source is this? Because Chronicles is from 2015, not 2006. So unless there’s another book, I’m not seeing it.

And I’m not cherry-picking what’s canon, I’m saying that there’s a difference between World of Warcraft novels and Warcraft novels. They’re two different games, with arguably separate timelines / lore. With how much has been re-written by WoW’s current lore (not even talking about Geography, racial features or character personalities), it’s honestly not that difficult to argue that Warcraft (RTS) timeline and WoW timelines are essentially different entities. The Warcraft Books, such as Day of the Dragon and War of the Ancients literally have ‘Warcraft’ in the title, as opposed to later re-writes for WoW lore, which are specifically titled ‘World of Warcraft.’

Honestly the only people being selective here are you two, I’m literally following the titles they give. WoW books are for WoW lore, Warcraft books are for Warcraft lore. Super not complicated.


#354

That is the first time Blizzard hinted at it and I linked it earlier.

And considering Warcraft and World of Wacraft different properties with varying timelines is very much cherry picking.
It’s the same franchise with the same lore and what you’re complaining about now is not even a retcon because they didn’t contradict themselves.
And yes I’m including War of the Ancients in that, which does not give any form of evidence to support night elves predating trolls.

Look I agree that the lore was BETTER pre 2005 but that doesn’t change the fact that the lore has moved on.
Now you can either accept that and play the reforged campaign (or like me, play both and have fun comparing, contrasting and critiquing the differences) or just play the original campaign with either old or new graphics.

But Blizzard is not going to ignore all the writing they did on the WARCRAFT brand post 2004.


#355

^ Well said, MrDragon.


#356

That actually makes no sense. Similar series do exactly the same thing. Warhammer is a prime example, 40k lore is not the same as other iterations. Warcraft was written specifically for the RTS style of storytelling. If you had been on this forum since the beginning you’d know there are easily 10 threads on the topic of RTS storytelling versus MMORPG, and how the swap from an RTS perspective to an RPG one is (by even the creators admission) the biggest issue with story continuity.

There’s a distinctive reason why they put the titles of the books the way they do, but I guess I’m the cherry-picker by following Blizzards own naming scheme.

The fact that you don’t see the irony in that is mind numbing.

Once again, the Warcraft books didn’t end at 2004, but they did swap soley to WoW Lore Storytelling by 2010. That was Blizzard’s move in its entirety. The fact that YOU are the one to ignore this isn’t my problem.

Once again, I said:

Different games, by different development groups, writing their own stories for each. The fact that the differences have become so pronounced (Most Wc3 characters have entirely different persona’s, various races have been completely overhauled like the Draenei, etc etc) make it an effectively different timeline. No one but Blizzard knows how they’re going to make the Reforged story (or what their plans are for a potential Wc4 Story), until it comes out. What I’m saying is that Blizzard purposely chose the title names, and to cherry-pick that aspect out is ignoring a purposeful choice on their end. The fact that they purposely did this indicates that World of Warcraft is not the exact same storyline as Warcraft, otherwise there would be no title change.


#357

Ok, I give up. I’ve been defeated by this form of logic.
Dragging an unrelated gaming franchise from a different company in completely proves your point.
Ignoring how Samwise Didier or Chris Metzen or well the majority of the lead designers and writers of Warcraft and World of Warcraft seem to have the same names, birth dates, faces, families etc.
Ignoring the fact that Warcraft and World of Warcraft (and Hearthstone) are grouped under a single franchise. (As opposed to say Warhammer and Warhammer 40k which are different franchises entirely with different lore as has been explicitly stated by Gamesworkshop every time fans try to tie the two universes together.)
Ignoring the fact that blizzard put out a 3 volume franchise-bible that makes the canon of the entire thing official and very much directly references Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 and WoW in the same universe.

Truly, by this level of cherry-picking I am outclassed.

Oh and lets ignore the fact that they added Anestarian Sunstrider to the Warcraft 3 reforged campaign, Wielding Felo’melorn.
Or how Dagran the Orcslayer is wielding Ashbringer.

You can say I’m wrong as much as you want but Blizzard is clearly not on the same page as you.

Whether you (or I for that matter) like it or not. Warcraft as a franchise includes WoW. Our opinions, headcanon and fan-theories do not matter.


#358

This. Very much this.

If you want to completely ignore all post-2003 lore, then don’t buy or play Reforged. Easy.

Reforged is not for the purists.


#359

Pretty defeatist attitude. I’d rather try and fight for the game I want to see myself.
Nothing is set in stone I think that If the majority of people wanted it, it would be in Blizzard’s best interest to count WoW as a separate continuity. Especially in relation to a potential WC4.


#360

I completely agree, the Lore till WOTLK is fine, after that atleast for me none of the lore is canon.