Warcraft III Lore retconning to match WoW is a terrible idea


#247

It is very clear that you’ve never played WoW. Me and my friends agree that it has one of the most captivating storylines to this day. And no. Basically no Raid boss EVER was killed by “adventurers”. Or as you call them “random plebs”. In fact only original WoW characters were killed by a group of mercenaries in lore but that’s it. And besides that - you are not allowed to use numbers in WoW names. The only thing that was somewhat redconned was how the Broken Isles and the Tomb of Sargeras look like. That’s it. Besides that Blizzard has done an amazing job at keeping the lore from WC3 in tact and respected it. Oh and on top of that: Illidan wasn’t even killed. He was just imprisoned by Maiev. Even Kel’Thuzad survived since his phylactery was never found. So there mister expert. WoW never changed WC3s lore in any way shape or form. It just finished the storylines of individual characters with mostly satisfying endings.


#248

Well despite not being massively retcon intense, WoW made many addendums to the lore that made Warcraft 3 seem more trivial than it was.

One example is the lore for Demons being immortal outside of the Twisting Nether. This puts a huge damper on the final Warcraft 3 mission where all the mortal races banded together to defeat Archimonde. In retrospect, that victory is somewhat hollow considering we never really killed him, just set him back to return later.

WoW also made Kael’thas into a bad guy, had the Forsaken and Blood Elves join the Horde, and bridged a connection between the Eredar and Draenei. While not direct retcons, a lot of these decision can be considered ‘out of character’ to the story that Warcraft 3 was set up to be.

Also Druids opening up to females and other races like Tauren is a personal sore note for me. Druidism being exclusive to Night Elf males is a major cultural distinction. While I like how Druids were tackled by other races in WoW, it also loses some of its flavour by being more accessible to gameplay.


#249

Well yeah, they’re all expansions.

Well, he was. Or his body was. It’s just that he was far more demon than man at that point. So they did actually kill him as well as imprisoned his body to make it that much harder for him to come back. It’s only at the top of Suramar City above the Nighthold that he was resurrected.


#250

One example is the lore for Demons being immortal outside of the Twisting Nether.

Not correct. It is mentioned in the WC3 storylines that demons never truley die but it’s not explained on how it works exactly.

WoW also made Kael’thas into a bad guy,

Wrong. He became a villain once he joined Illidan and then helped him when he was ordered by the Burning Legion to destroy the Lich King.

Forsaken and Blood Elves join the Horde

The Horde is a ragtag group of outcasts - of course they would join.

bridged a connection between the Eredar and Draenei

“Oh no they dared to make the Draenei more interesting! How cruel of them!”

Also Druids opening up to females

So you want an MMORPG where one gender can’t play a certain class? Yeah like that’s going to work out for Blizzard.

Druidism being exclusive to Night Elf

Well they tried that in Classic WoW with Paladins and Shamans and people were outraged on both sides since the other was always the “OP” one. Besides that - Tauren and Nightelves have a very similar culture and connection to nature. Plus the two races have been allies for a while. It makes sence that they would work together and learn from one another.


#251

No he was never killed. They made that clear in WoW Legion. He was just knocked out and then imprisoned in a giant crystal thingy just like the other demonhunters. He then was freed on top of Suramar City when that crystal was shattered. When you start playing a demonhunter in WoW you can even see what’s happening outside the crystal once you are trapped within. And yes, Illidan’s body did change but not his personality. He IS still the same nightelve who loves Tyrande and hates Sargeras.


#252

Although Illidan soon begins to overpower the gathered adventurers, Maiev reappears and makes her move during the battle, releasing the adventurers just as one of Illidan’s spells has trapped them, and joining in as the battle resumes. She makes several references to the pain Illidan has caused her, from forcing her to guard his prison for 10,000 years by committing his crimes, to causing the death of Naisha. In the end, when Illidan is near death, Maiev haughtily remarks that he is beaten. As he dies, however, Illidan reminds her that ‘the huntress is nothing without the hunt’. Illidan relives his memories, recalling Kur’talos Ravencrest horrified at him sacrificing the Moon Guard for power and Cenarius telling him that the path of a druid requires sacrifice, something which Illidan did not understand. The last thing Illidan sees is Tyrande, whose name he whispers as the lights in his eyes fade.[44]

Maiev ordered his corpse to be brought to the Vault of the Wardens on the Broken Isles, determined to force Illidan’s undying demon soul to suffer the rest of his sentence for eternity. As the wardens prepared to transport his body, however, the Illidari who had been dispatched to Mardum returned through a portal from their successful mission to retrieve the [Sargerite Keystone]. Learning of their master’s fate, the demon hunters attacked, cutting through the briefly-disoriented wardens, until Maiev was able to disable and imprison them by turning the very power they relied on against them. On Maiev’s order, the Illidari were transported along with Illidan to the Vault, where she intended to keep them locked away for eternity.[45]

After the fall of the Black Temple, the corpse of Illidan was taken by Warden Maiev Shadowsong to the Vault of the Wardens so that Illidan’s dark, lingering soul could suffer the rest of his eternal sentence—along with his followers, the feared Illidari.[48]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Illidan_Stormrage


#253

Yeah. They redconned that for Legion. Sadly I can’t see when that post on gamepedia was made but even his last words changed. Now - he drops to the floor and soflty whispers “Tyrande” before he loses consciousness. Maybe play the game, befor trying to disprove somebody who actually did. Oh and here is a WoWWiki article that supports my claim. Everybody can use an article that could have been change by some rando on the internet. Just play the game yourself and you’ll see what I mean.

In the end, when Illidan is near death, Maiev remarks that he is beaten, but as he dies Illidan says that the huntress is nothing without the hunt. With the drive for vengeance gone, Maiev states that she is indeed nothing. Akama then took the Black Temple and swore to fill the halls with light once again.[15] This however, was changed in the expansion Legion, where it is shown that Illidan simply loses consciousness after the battle with Maiev and Akama instead of dying. 

/wiki/Illidan_Stormrage


#254

sweet mother of mercy 90 likes, and apparently i liked it without even remembering it.

but i mean c’mon, like it or not they’re not going to do this.

and first off let me mention without any exaggerations that WoW’s lore progression until the end of cata is “Reasonable”.

and wc3 can perfectly alter minor lore details to fit the transition, and it would be fine, because wc3’s lore pretty much doesn’t continue inside wow after WoTLK which was one of the last good wow expansions in terms of lore.

hence what we can conclude from this is we don’t exactly need to say don’t connect wc3 to wow because we have recently been exposed to flying goat spaceships jumping across planets.

my idea is wc3 combined until WoTLK can be a prime example of how the fans want the story to be written compared to what we’re getting now.

full of huge impactful things. that constantly progressed the story instead of snipping them and tying them like a carrot on a stick.

which arguably trashed ALL of the awesome characters of Warcraft 3.

  • Maiev Shadowsong ? remembered as crazy lady lustful for vengeance without people really seeing how and why is she the way she it.

  • Tyrande and Malfurion ? universally disliked despite their awesome feets in wc3.

  • Archimond ? constantly reused instead of letting it end the beautiful Rain of Chaos campaign with respect.

  • Thrall ? basically they trashed this character, (Lets see if they do anything now that the new wow cinmatic is out)

  • Rexxar ? just lost tbh…

  • Uther ? well basically the reason i loved alliance back in the day.

i can go on and on but i realized this is why re representing the warcraft 3 story to a more larger population of Warcraft fans is soo important, which is what they are doing.

i was just abit sad how it took soo long and how WoW lore treated the characters poorly.

(also a minor disclaimer i followed wow lore as best i could but never played it.)


#255

I don’t think you fully understand.

Your replies were correct, but they only work in retrospect of having the storylines continued in the way they did.

  • Demons are not immortal. This is actually one of the most contentious changes, and reverberated through the Warcraft community. Think of it this way - If they ‘never truly die’ then there is no narrative meaning behind Sylvanas getting Varimathras to kill his brethren. None at all. She may as well have killed them herself and made an offhand remark about hoping they don’t come back.
  • Despite working for Kil’jaeden, Illidan and the Illidari were more like anti-heroes. They focused on taking down the greater threat at all costs. As far as the story went, they didn’t try to claim power over the land (or at least get that far). And this is carried on into Legion, where Illidan’s story is told as a misunderstood anti-hero. TBC isn’t the only conclusive definitive for Illidan or Kael’thas, it was just the direction they decided to take. By all means, Kael’thas could have been an ally too if they could make Akama redeemable.
  • Horde is a ragtag group of outcasts, then so is the Alliance who has Exiled Draenei, Cursed Worgen and Refugee Gnomes. Honestly that definition was quite lost past Vanilla.

And yes, I would have liked the classes to stay true to their portrayals in the lore. Otherwise the lore itself has no meaning if it can be so easily changed for MMO gameplay purposes - and that’s exactly why this thread exists.

It’s pretty apparant that WoW class/faction lore has bent to gameplay decisions, and that’s something that wouldn’t happen as dramatically in an RTS setting. They can allow Anduin to wield a 2H sword or Thrall to wear plate armor, but when it comes to class lore for us, the lore is limited to a strict ruleset, one that is both inclusive and exclusive at the whims of gameplay.

For example, the Horde had the Paladin identity crammed into Tauren culture. If this were the RTS, they could make a distinct Sunwalker unit. But the point isn’t even wanting a Sunwalker unit- the purpose of Sunwalker lore was to explain how Horde gets more Paladin options. This is a case where lore is being used to cover up holes rather than drive a distinct cultural niche. If you look at it one way, it’s diversifying the Tauren culture, but in another way you would never have distinct cultural niches like a Runemaster unit or a Tauren Spirit Walker without having to tap into some existing class. Even then, you would diminish that identity by taking up broadly-applicable class identity, such as Shamans turning into Wolves and dropping Totems (originally tied only to Troll culture) or Monks being based on Pandaren culture and getting drunk.

In terms of Racial and Class lore, there’s definitely something lost in translation by moving it into the MMO front. This is one of the bigger factors that works against Warcraft 3’s established lore. Blood Elves can leave the Alliance in the RTS through a story, and have that reflected in a linear campaign. Yet no race will ever be able to leave their respected faction in WoW because we are tied through gameplay. They tried this narrative with Garrosh ousting non-Orc/Taurens from Orgrimmar - but this was never reflected in game and simply didn’t work for the purpose of story telling.


#256

Wowwiki isn’t updated as accurately or frequently anymore because the bulk of the editors left due to some disputes with Wikia. But here, if we want to cut right to the chase we could also try citing his character page off wikipedia itself -

Illidan returns in Legion, the sixth expansion to World of Warcraft. A teaser cinematic shows Gul’dan from the alternate Draenor (shown in Warlords of Draenor) discovering Illidan’s corpse encased in a crystal prison in the Vault of the Wardens. He appears briefly in cinematic cutscenes during the Demon Hunter introduction storyline (the first half of which begins shortly before Illidan’s death in The Burning Crusade), sending his acolytes to a world called Mardum to retrieve a demonic artifact, the Sargerite Keystone, that would allow his forces to attack any world held by the Burning Legion. The Demon Hunters succeed and return to Outland, only to find Illidan has been slain, and they are imprisoned with him in the Vault of the Wardens. A questline playable by all classes involves the naaru, crystalline beings that embody the Holy Light, seeking to resurrect Illidan as the chosen champion against the Legion. The player takes the role of Illidan during certain climactic battles in his past, including his death at the Black Temple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illidan_Stormrage

I’ve been subbed since 2005, but okay.

I certainly remember the questline where we have to collect a vessel for Illidan’s soul, collect his fragments, find out his soul is being held by Helya, Gul’dan’s taken his corpse up into the Nighthold to serve as an empty vessel for Sargeras to inhabit, and that’s where he’s brought back to life. Do you?


#257

Hey triceron what do you think of my campaign idea. Need feedback. This is all just a few thoughts not a let’s do it!

It takes place during wrath of the lich king or before cataclysm. Someone raises kael’thas from the dead but we don’t know who, and they tell him to go to Northrend to be restored.

At this point blood elf drama writes itself. Current ruler lor’themar keeps Kael a secret from his people and the horde for personal and political reasons believing this can be resolved discreetly. Lady Liadrin head of the blood knights asks the Scryers, a independent non-horde blood elf faction in Outland, who sends out a hunting party. Once in Northrend the san’layn and blood queen lana’thel, kael’s dead brethren risen by the lich king, rush to greet the prince. “Hey jerk! Remember us!?”

I don’t know if the princes fel madness would still affect him after being raised, but the sight of the wretched addicted reminds him of his mission and failure. The promise that whatever he finds in Northrend that could restore him, might also restore the wretched and his race to be the apex they once were. Not blood elf or Highborne, but bloodborne.

I want to make him lich king level scary.

Also unrelated, if you added a wow race to each war3 faction what would orcs get? Humans got worgen and undead got vrykul or val’kyr. Orcs are blank to me.


#258

I have been around since warcraft 2 and this is the firts time I ever heard that their was lore in WoW… lol

We all knew since it was started it was for people with no lives to pretend and get a better one. But to find out they actually made a lore to be a part of like your a part of history lol. My god how far did humanity fall for adults to play make-belief.


#259

I don’t know how to break the news to you, but various forms of media often have lore for their story, setting, and characters.

What’s next, people read books and get immersed in them?


#260

No playing a story is like reading a book warrcaft 3 you played the story that was type of thing.

Playing pretend with made up characters and then thinking you are important to history and are a part of it… is just embarrassing.

1 you reinact a story.
2 you are so sad of a human you play pretend like you matter

there is a difference.


#261

So are you just adamantly against games with character customization?


#262

I think that’s an interesting concept, definitely worth exploring. Undead Kael was always something I thought was going to be a thing when they showed the San’layn concept in Wrath. I mean, they even kinda look like him, I thought thats what they were going to do when the model was originally datamined.

As for Orcs it really depends on what direction you’d want them to go in. I always find them to be the least creative since so much of their culture is based on Orc/Jungle Troll/Tauren, and not expansive beyond that. In that respect, I always found the Dark Horde more interesting, since they’re willing to expand out and ‘enslave’ other races.

If you want a more traditional Horde, I think since War3 already has an Outland connection, you could bring in Mok’nathal and Mag’har units. It may be possible to segregate the various clans and give them the WoD treatment, sorta how Cata and BFA are differentiating the Human Nations in physical form. So like a Shattered Hand Brute, a Bleeding Hollow Scryer, a Warsong Commander, a Blackrock Overlord, etc. They would have whatever physical attributes that their clan is known for. Dark skin, missing limbs/eyes, tattooes, etc.


#263

Well, you did just learn that there is lore in WoW so we don’t blame you for not understanding how stories work.


#264

Well it has been six months since this thread was created and still gets a lot of discussion. I stick to the idea that there a lot of things that could be rescued from Warcraft lore post WoW, what truly injured it was the MMO mechanics, like the two factions thing and the raids. Though they have developed a lot in their storytelling since Vanilla, they have run out of interesting characters or settings, which till the end of TFT they had plenty.

Reforged should get its DLC Campaigns that explore Pre-TFT and Post-TFT lore, there is a lot of potential there, done right they could revive the RTS warcraft games. War of the Ancients, First War, Second War, War of the Shifting Sands, Troll Wars, Satyr Wars, War of the Spider, just to name some from the past, and some neat WoW stories with a new fresh RTS setting that could help reboot the franchise or maybe just retconn some past events and bring some new characters for an utopic Warcraft IV against some big enemy, like the Old Gods, whom I allways thought were really misused in the MMO, big all corrupting entities shouldn’t be dealt with in a 40 people raid.


#265

Couldn’t agree more! I hope they don’t change things to match WoW. It’s the source material & should take precedence over WoW. Added to that, i hope they don’t change the funny jokes the units etc. make when you click them like they did with the original jokes in WoW. I prefer if things stick to the original.


#266

Warcraft 1-3 lore was great.
WOW lore was never great. It just borrowed off the momentum.
And it only took a couple years after WotLK for WOW lore to turn to complete trash.