i am talking about mid to high level game play, let 5 peasants to do the job are already so hard and constantly ur already being attacked and harassed and all pros attack and harass at level 1! do u think u have the time to actually keep clicking this?
this is pure nonsense. no one does that except ur able to meet a very noob low MMR player that wont attack u in team or casual game. u dont have the time to keep clicking nonstop and resources to wait until so much peasant just to do that. by the time ur able to do this. ur enemy already attack u and where do u think u have ? u have no army that moment. maybe just 1 hero. do u think u can get to do this ? and plus u cant get militia on expo. so this is totally irrelevant.
You can just place townhall in such way that heroes cannot attack your workers (btw the only race that can heal building townhall without getting his workers hurt)
i would exchange undead acolyte and goldmine built time than to keep nonstop clicking this and AFK ur heroes and do nothing just to do this stupid power build. i have played undead and very easily beat human especially stupid pala bm rifle is the easiest to kill .and my expo is faster and more than my opponent most of the time.
check how i kill human easily.
DL Ghouls Massacres Rifles! 250312 Flukewin(U) VS Mountedurmom(H) - game3 DL Ghouls mass expo
OP Dreadlord Level 6250312 Flukewin(U) VS koreanHU(H) - DL ghouls kills, human have no chance
Warcraft 3 Classic 250311 Flukewin(U) VS TSMCINTEL(H) - DL ghouls effortless 5 kill
The problem here is that if we are talking about anything except top 1 players means that we including skill issues. On low level necro wagons good as well.
Pala rifle is good strat vs UD still and the fact that someone could beat this doesn’t mean that some races weak or strong.
pala rifle is rubbish. i bully human easier than any other race with undead
OP DL You shall sleep like baby 250311 Flukewin(U) VS BugsLV(H) - DL ghoul frosty bully human
So why Starbuck plays this vs Happy? He is a bad player but do you think he will not abuse good strats?
human is naturally weak , weak hero, slow movement, and most unit die easily. and u’ll easy to break them, especially footies is exp feeder, they are only strong when have high level MK, u cannot outrun any race with human, if u run = u feed exp 1 by 1 footie die, and the only way to run without getting hurt is using TP, which it cost u fortune 325 gold each, maybe i can understand the reason starbucks use pala rifle is the only way he believe is the only choice he have more chance to win the game but still most people dont get that pala rifle suck as hell vs undead and easily break them.but if u go am. u’ll get nuke by coil nova , i have more wins with undead as casual play than use human vs any other race. it takes alot of effort to play human and must plan well including laying out ur base in order to win the game with some creativity and cunning play.
when i use undead and vs human is very easy than any other race and its effortless to use undead to beat human. i am not the best undead player but i am surprise i can have more win rate with undead than using human. i have 6 wins and 1 lose with undead in 1v1 85% as like inexperienced undead player. and human is just 50% win while i have alot more exp using human.
Nice work, Blizzard! 
I guess that we are closer and closer to the final release, so I will hold back with my other ideas for future patches 
. I am only going to go back to huntresses change for a second.
I genuinely believe that general direction is great and gives NE more options on Tier 2, but it is a little bit too strong.
Let me compare the new Huntress with Moon Glaive upgrade against Grunt with Brute Strength upgrade. I think it is a nice comparison because both units are 3 food frontliners, and Grunt fulfills the definition of solid/average unit.
| stat | Grunt | Huntress | diff |
|---|---|---|---|
| Effective HP * | 875 | 672 | 77% |
| DPS ** | 14.1 | 9.4 | 67% |
| DPS 1 *** | - | 14.1 | 100% |
| DPS 2 **** | - | 16.5 | 118% |
| range | 100 | 225 | 225% |
| speed | 270 | 350 | 130% |
| gold | 200 | 195 | 98% |
| build time | 30 | 30 | 100% |
| wood | 0 | 20 | inf  |
| utility | pillage | hide, sentinel |
* armor considered ** avg dmg / cooldown *** with 1 bounce **** with 2 bounces
The following conclusions can be drawn
- Cost (except wood) is comparable
- You may argue that Huntress has more utility
- Grunt is evidently more durable
- To consider DPS equal, the average bounces number should be around
1.52.and I believe it is usually more, so Huntress will have visibly higher DPS (moreover Huntress has bigger attack range, so it is much easier to connect)~ Because of that the DPS should be comparable after upgrade, but huntres has bigger attack range, so it is much easier to connect - Huntress is much faster, and
in my opinion it is the biggest advantage and eventual balance issue
Bellow is obsolete
So I would sugest additional adjustements for Huntress:
- First bounce delas 80% dmg
- Second bounce delas 60% dmg
- Moon Glaive upgrade reduces Huntress speed to 310
After implementing those adjustments, the above table will look like that:
stat|Grunt|Huntress|diff
-----|---------|------------|-----
DPS|14.1|9.4|67%
DPS 1|-|17|121%
DPS 2|-|22.7|161%
speed|270|310|115%
And I believe that both units will be more comparable.
**EDIT**
If above changes would be considered, the research time change (`Upgrade Moon Glaives research time increased from 35 to 60 seconds`) would not be necessary in my opinion.
** EDIT II **
Havely updated after Karifean reply
After all that edition and discussion I would come to a conclusion that we can try that
Bad comparison.
-
each race is different (tbh I can end up here)
But as soon you don’t understand the game I can explain. -
huntresses require huntershall even on T1 what is slow your T2 timing if you want to tech with them
-
they require lumber what is slow your tech timing as well
-
because they require additional building you lose tempo compare to grunt. If you do archer creeping (without it means that you have less exp and gold etc) then your huntresses out when enemy AM could be 2.5 goin to your base with milita creeping on main to 3 lvl
-
elf lack of healing (did you watch grubby vs Knoff today?) do it is almost impossible to heal them like other races can
-
they require T2 upgrade that costs 175 lumber what is more then any t2 building and require uptime in a aow
-
huntresses are aow unit what means that if you do them you lose aow creeping potential on the start especially
So as soon you arent smart person I’ll do a conclusion:
Each race have different units. Rifleman is better then archer. Bears are better then abominations. Chims cannot attack air. Bat riders are ultimate airtoair unit. Tanks are unique etc.
This is the game idea.
It is incorrect to compare any units without full game flow, unit composition, timings, heroes and even map creeps (like creeps with poison or purge).
The idea is not make grunts to all 4 races but make 4 uniq units. Huntresses fit this niche pretty well in this ptr.
I hope you learned something.
HUM is not naturally and surely not naturally weak.
In fact HUM race is the Numeric Leviathan who leading in supply from the very beginning in every game. Your base starts with 12 food leading ORC’s11, UD(10) and NE(10) . And leading more when +2 after T2 +2 after T3.
Your hero certainlly Top class in the game better than NE‘s hero plus well, essentially the best counter in endgame to UD’s hero who also Top class hero in the game.
Hum’s regular unit do move slow in T1 and T2 but your force much faster in T3.
It’s really hard to say your 350 top move speed Knight starts from 5 armor can be update to 5+6=11 die easily. By the help of aura+6 and inner fire+5, you get Armor 22 and this is the Numeric Leviathan. Grandmaster from UD, 120’s comment: “Really Headache when he see the Armor of Knight”. Yes, this is Knightmare.
The footman, you defined as exp feeder, is designed to Exchange.
From 1.17 they got Defend buffed insanely，to help you exchange something from your opponent forcefully. You can not always cry out don’t force me while forcing other races for exchange from T1.
The Defend skill so effective to Piercing, giving you the edge for force exchange in same level match. The exp(40 per unit) is the price you have and should to pay.
HUM is not naturally, the race got Continuous Excessive buff logged in past patch log because the absent of elder Grandmasters in tornament before 1.36.1. As a logical result, the Bloody Pala-R meta, born from these buffs, is the Numeric Leviathan.
Ironically, the best skill to counter Bloody Pala-R meta is defend. Your leading force exchange card. That‘s why your Complaints will only push the balance and the game to endless abyss. The deadend of the game → only balance breaker mirror playable.
You protected so well and again seems this patch will not end your privilege. Only Speeding up this process. To save the game and balance, the Numeric Leviathan Meta must step down or the game itself step down from players.
That’s all, feel free to speeding up, waiting for the final choice of BLZ.
Everything will be clear in time.
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PTR2 went out on Monday morning. And PTR3 went out on the same week Friday noon?! That’s crazy! Need to uplevel my speed to keep up with it.
Now here’s my analysis.
New Changes in this Build
World Editor
- Item Slow(Orb Version) (AIos) changed to be based off of Shadowstrike (AEsh) instead of Slow (Aslo)
- This may change how custom abilities previously copied from Item Slow(Orb Version) function
- Good for HUM to have Shadowstrike kind of slow. But looks sloppy from Blizzard to do this replacement that potentially break custom maps, instead of making a new copy.
- And this also means the slow effect now can’t stack with Shadowstrike?
- This may change how custom abilities previously copied from Item Slow(Orb Version) function
Items
- Vampiric Potion removed from drop pool
- Rune of Lesser Healing removed from drop pool
- All the interesting experiments are gone
- All the interesting experiments are gone
- Sentry Ward vision reduced from 1600 to 1200
- Better than just 1000
Human
- Reverted Siphon Mana range
- -1 from -2 HUM. Note that the range is reverted, but the area of effect is still nerfed from 800 to 700.
- This means Siphon Mana can be used as far as it is now, but is less sticky.
- The dev doesn’t seem to want to extinct Blood Mage with too many nerfs, which is alright.
- Orb of Slow proc chance reduced from 30%/15% to 25%/10%
- Orb of Slow debuff is no longer dispellable or stealable
- Orb of Slow debuff now stacks with Sorceress Slow
- +2 HUM. Nerfing the chance but buffing the effect to make it a real orb. This orb is now much stronger. Infi’s dream has just become more real.
- Will we see Hum one-base fast T3 with 3 Orbs? I think some Hum player could try develop it.
- Holy Light cooldown increased from 5/5/5 to 5.5/5.5/5.5 seconds
- Note that the HUD does not support decimal cooldowns and will display the cooldown as 6.
- -1 from -1~-2 HUM. Remain a bit less CD than coil.
- Note that the HUD does not support decimal cooldowns and will display the cooldown as 6.
- Flame Strike mana cost reduced from 135/135/135 to 125/125/125
- +1 HUM. “I nerfed his control, but I will give you more Flame Strikes”
- I don’t think mana cost is an issue for this spell though. In general it’s not an issue for BM if it has Siphon Mana.
- Defend deflection chance reduced from 30% to 25%
- -1 HUM. Tune-down along with the other adjustments of Defend. Deflection definitely shouldn’t happen too often.
Orc
- Orb of Lightning damage against summoned units increased from 150 to 200
- Remain +1~+2 ORC. Was doubled to 300 in PTR1. Got adjusted to 150. 33% increase is still a good buff. Dryad dispel also only does 200 damage at the cost of 50 MP.
- Wind Rider movement speed reduced from 320 to 310
- -1 ORC. I see they are trying to control the potential of mass Wind Riders a bit. But lower XP is still a stronger buff.
- Sentry Ward vision reduced from 1600 to 1200
Night Elf
- Reverted Hunters Hall lumber cost
- 0 from +2 NE.
- Reverted Natures Blessing cost
- 0 from +2 NE.
- Both now gone possibly due to the lumber gathering cycle buff.
- If the gathering efficiency is buffed, cost buffs taking a step back to avoid double buffing is alright. We will see how it works out in real games.
- Reverted Moonstone duration
- 0 from +1 NE. I think 35 secs were a fine change. But it’s indeed unimportant. Not creating nor solving any issues.
- Reverted Mountain Giant food cost
- 0 from +2 NE. Bye 6-food MG. Not this time…
- Upgrade Moon Glaives cost increased from 100/150 to 125/175
- Upgrade Moon Glaives research time increased from 35 to 60 seconds
- Huntress movement speed reduced from 350 to 340
- +3 ~ +5 from +5 ~ +8 NE. Compensating the heavy armor buff. 35 to 60 seconds is a 71.4% increase. Big! And probably too much.
- More MS reduction only after the upgrade, not before it, would have made better sense cuz hunts start as unarmored. But the dev seems too lazy to implement that.
- We still need more games to see the actual effect.
- Chimaera movement speed increased from 250 to 270
- Remains +1 NE. So the MS of Chimaera was actually 250, slower than Frost Wyrm 270, which has more HP and food cost. Now this change is actually making it the same. Even 280 would make sense.
Undead
- Reverted Ritual Dagger charges and cost
- +2 from -1 UD. Note that this only reverts charges and cost, Ritual Dagger healing still increased from 175 to 200. It’s now a free 14.3% more healing buff for every unit per charge.
- Cripple mana cost reduced from 100 to 90
- +1~+2 UD. Encouraging Necromancer usage.
- Cripple is a very good skill now: MS -75%, AS -50%, damage -50%, for 60(10)s
- This unit has been buffed many times in 1.36.1 and 1.36.2
- Necromancer Cripple cost reduced from 125 to 100 mana.
- Buff Skeletal Mastery cost reduced from 200/175 to 150/100.
- Cripple can now target mechanical units
- I don’t think the low usage of Necromancer is due to high Cripple mana. Probably due to the slow timing, or too much resources required.
- Maybe UD experts can share more insights.
- Frost Wyrm air attack now has an area of effect (same as ground attack). This splash damage will only affect enemy air units
- Frost Wyrm ground attack splash damage will no longer affect air units
- Frost Wyrm ground and air attack range increased from 300 to 375
- +2~+3 UD. Encouraging Frost Wyrm usage. But unlike Tauren and Witch Doctor, Frost Wyrm is already used in UvN.
- The splash change makes them better against air, but fixed the issue when hitting ground air is also splashed.
- The 25% range increase means Frost Wyrm has much more micro space: can be easier to pull away, make enemy units stay, or harder to be hit by units with short attack range in some cases (shoreline & above trees).
- Need more tests around it.
- Disease Clouds spawned on Abomination death no longer have collision
- Seems more like a bug fix.
Summary
- Human was 0 ~ +2 now +3 ~ +6
- Orc was +8 ~ +14 now +7 ~ +13
- NE was +14 ~ +23 now +5 ~ +13
- UD was +2 now +8 ~ +10
The dust has settled a bit for HUM, Orc and NE. Now they seem to be experimenting with UD.
I believe more number adjustments and possibly reverts are needed. We will see what’s left on 04/15 in the end!
- each race is different (tbh I can end up here)
It is obvious but still we compare race features and units all the time, because it is still better than to talk about them in total vacuum 
- huntresses require huntershall even on T2 what is slow your T2 timing if you want to tech with them
- they require lumber what is slow your tech timing as well
- because they require additional building you lose tempo compare to grunt…
I can make the same comparison with Rifleman, but I am a little bit hesitant because I am not sure how to compare Medium and Heavy Armor (Medium is stronger but how much 
)
- elf lack of healing (did you watch grubby vs Knoff today?) do it is almost impossible to heal them like other races can
It is not like orc is spoiled with many healing options on tier II
- they require T2 upgrade that costs 175 lumber what is more then any t2 building and require uptime in a aow
In my comparison I assumed that Grunt has the Brute Strength upgrade, and it is 150 wood. I would say it is comparable.
- huntresses are aow unit what means that if you do them you lose aow creeping potential on the start especially
Yeah, it is potentially a problem. I would say you just need to build around that, but still even after nerfs proposed by me I believe that Huntress will still be better unit than Grunt, and it is part of compensation.
The idea is not make grunts to all 4 races but make 4 uniq units.
Where In my post you see proposition like that. I hope that you know that comparing two things is not the same as propose to make them the same
I hope you learned something.
Two thinks. You have a problem with:
- reading comprehension (no worries English Is not my native language as well, and we all struggle time to time )
- treating with respect people with other opinion than you
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I didn’t get a chance to share my analysis for PTR 2, since you guys moved so fast! Still wanna share some of the thought processes here.
I try to follow these guidelines below when reviewing these changes
- The game should be more fun overall.
- The game should be balanced.
- The game should ensure that every race has a fair chance to win champions.
Quick recap on how impact is measured below
- 0 for no impact
- 1 for very minor
- 2 for minor
- 3 for medium
- 5 for major
- 8 for huge
- -/+ means nerf/buff, respectively
- for some changes, I’d use a range instead of a score.
And here comes the analysis
Items
- Vampiric Potion now grants +6 damage and 50% life steal for 20 seconds
- Added a persistent visual effect
- This is looking better than the first patch, for sure. Stats have been detailed and adjusted.
- It only lasts for 20 secs, so makes sense that it has slightly higher damage than claws +5. And 50% life steal makes more sense than 75%.
- In general, it’s better on melee heroes with high physical damage.
- The actual reasonable stats might need more tests.
- Added a persistent visual effect
- Rune of Lesser Healing heal from 125 to 75
- 125 is too high, compared with Healing Scroll last time. Tuning down makes sense.
- But 75 is only half of Healing Scroll, which is very low. But I know how they get the number. Here’s the math
- Healing Scroll costs 250 gold and heals 150 HP. So 1 gold 0.6 HP.
- The rune is a level 2 drop, which should has a similar cost as Ring of Protection +3, 125 gold.
- 125 * 0.6 = 75 HP LOL
- Would it be good enough in game? I feel a slightly higher value would be more meaningful.
- Will have to test more.
- Ring of Protection +3 gold cost from 150 to 125 (matched Ring of Protection +4)
- Well, it’s 1 armor fewer, cost should go down accordingly for sure.
- The current patch at least has shown everyone how armor scales. Hopefully, it’s no longer a sell-only item in the future.
Human
- Orb of Fire replaced with Orb of Slow
- Orb of Slow has a 30% chance to proc on units, and 15% chance to proc on heroes. Applies a 25% attack speed and 55% movement speed slow to the target for 10(5)
- Costs 325 gold
- +3~+5 HUM. The effect can be applied on Magic Immune units, like Destroyers and Dryads. And it can’t be dispel if applied on them. So Human has one more good control tool.
- If you have watched Infi’s comments here, he said he has been dreaming of this for 20+ years. Good to have your dream come true!
- Keep in mind that it’s a T3 item though. How effective this could be needs some more verification. The stats may need further adjustment.
- Blood Mage Banish cooldown increased from 0/0/0 to 4/2/0
- -2~-3 HUM. This spell finally has a cooldown, which is good.
- This together with the Siphon Mana changes bring down the very effective strong control of BM, especially in HvN.
- Again, the stats should be tested more for this to be reasonable.
- Paladin Holy Light cooldown increased from 5/5/5 to 6/6/6
- -1~-2 HUM. Holy Light is a great spell that takes effect immediately with 800 range 5 secs CD at 65 mana cost.
- Death Coil is 75 mana, 800 range too, and 6 secs CD, but flies a bit and can be denied.
- This change brings the two more in line.
- Together with the BM changes, Pala+BM+Rifle may have been nerfed much. I do agree that this one-base play should be a viable and not-too-OP option for Human. So stats adjustment may also be needed here.
- Flying Machine movement speed reduced from 400 to 375
- -1 HUM. Honestly seems to be nerfed together with Gargoyles.
- It’s still faster than most small air units like, 350 Dragon Hawk, Gargs, Hippo Rider, 320 Gryphon, Batrider, and Wind Rider.
Orc
- Reverted Orb of Lightning cost increase
- -1 Orc. The Orb effect buff is still there.
- I watched some PTR matches. It also scales with Blademaster mirror image, which is sick.
- Tauren cost increased from 280/80 to 300/100
- -1 Orc. Paying the price of free Resistant Skin.
- Seems that the dev is determined to add Resistant Skin. Good to have some new changes.
- But I doubt Tauren will be used widely, since it’s a T3 unit and Grunts and Raiders are still great.
- Sentry Ward health reduced from 200 to 50
- Stasis Ward health reduced from 100 to 25
- Stasis Ward detonation radius reduced from 400 to 350
- Stasis Ward stun duration reduced from 6(2.5) to 4(2)
- Healing Ward area of effect reduced from 500 to 450 (also affects item)
- -1~-2 ORC. All these ward changes are paying the price of Magic Immunity.
- Another set of changes that the dev really wants to try out.
- Great Hall build time reduced from 140 to 135
- +1 ORC instead of +3~+5 in the first version for this one.
- This looks much better. No more potential over-buffing.
- When adjusting base build time, it should be in-line with the other bases. Quick stats below
- Town Hall - 385 gold 205 lumber 180 secs, 5 armor, 1500 HP (But Human can mass build - pay even more to accelerate it)
- Great Hall - 385 gold 185 lumber 135 secs, 5 armor, 1500 HP
- Necropolis - 225 gold 90 secs, 5 armor, 1500 HP (Not necessary for expo though)
- Haunted Gold Mine - 225 gold 210 lumber 105 secs, 5 armor, 950 HP
- Tree of Life - 340 gold 185 lumber 120 secs, 2 armor (lowest), 1330 HP
- Entangled Gold Mine - 60 secs(longest, together with TOL building time), 2 armor, 800 HP
Night Elf
- Reverted Demon Hunter Mana Burn change
- -3~-5 NE removed. Good revert. Just don’t do unnecessary changes.
- Wisp lumber gather rate reduced from 8 to 7
- +3~+5 NE. This is a key change that will resolve the lumber issue for NE. Instead of reacting emotionally and defensively, let’s take a closer look with data and tests.
- Is lumber really a problem for NE?
- Yes. NE has the largest lumber demand. Swiss Gamer Dad made a great video to explain this with data.
- He downloaded thousands of replays from January, extracted data and fed them into a database, and created graphs to demonstrate the problem.
- The conclusion is for NE always has to consume hundreds more lumber.
- For NvH, 400+
- For NvU, almost around 800
- For NvO, 400+
- Big big shoutout to Swiss Gamer Dad who invested a large effort to reveal this problem!
- Is the solution good?
- Directionally, yes. If NE consumes a lot more lumber than the other races, it should also have better lumber efficiency somehow. This change is a direct solution.
- As for the actual sweet spot, AccCreate shared some analysis here.
- The conclusion is this change doesn’t affect normal tech normal at T1 at all.
- That said, we should continue improving the change by adjusting the stats. AccCreate again spent a good amount of time and effort to come up with this chart here
- 3 Wisps are usually used to immediately build 2 Ancient of Lores and 1 shop, so the lumber impact a min after T2 is even lower.
- Comparing the table with the average 400+ lumber deficit NE has above, I don’t believe this change is OP.
- Big big shoutout to AccCreate for the tests and analysis!
- What is the actual impact?
- The actual impact is not as big as people are imagining.
- At T1, 3 Moon Well tech timing has no change, since this is bounded by the time to produce 10 wisps from Tree of Life. If fewer Moon Wells are built, there’s a high risk when the oppo comes to push or even rush. If fewer wisps are built, the tech timing is earlier only a few seconds, but less micro space later on when against oppo’s wisp harass.
- From T2 onwards, the table above shows that it’s only +100 lumber at T2 even with 7.
- Note that T2 onwards is also when NE lacks lumber the most.
- Answers to the current popular opinions
- Opinion 1 - “This hasn’t been changed since the beginning of Warcraft”
- Agreed. And this is not an uncommon opinion. But a thing has never changed, doesn’t mean that it should not be now. Especially in modern Warcraft, we’ve seen many changes like this to refresh the game.
- We should focus on whether this is a real problem that should be solved instead.
- Swiss Gamer Dad proved that this is a real problem with the data from thousands of replays.
- Opinion 2 - “This change is too risky!”
- The Jenga metaphor is great. I agree the earlier the change takes effect in a game, the more risky it is.
- But again, having a higher risk doesn’t mean this change should not be made. It only means this change should be made more carefully. Even in Jenga, it’s very boring when someone just picks a brick from close to the top. But it’s more exciting when someone carefully picks a brick from the bottom and successfully puts it on the top.
- As long as there’s a real problem, we should focus on a good fix.
- Opinion 3 - “NE will have a tech timing of 2:15!”
- Completely false information based on 1 Moon Well tech.
- In reality, people do 3 Moon Well tech with 10 wisps. Because if there’s only 1 or 2 Moon Wells, your opponent will just rush you out of the game.
- And the tech timing remains the same with 3 Moon Well tech + 10 wisps. This is hard bounded by the time to produce 10 wisps from Tree of Life. No one can start teching to T2 before the last wisp is done.
- Unless you don’t make as many wisps. If you save one wisp and make only 9, you will have much more lumber pressure later on when against wisp harass.
- Opinion 4 - “This is the way to slow NE down”
- I know. And we all know. Players have been used to exploiting this specific problem to delay the progress on NE, and winning the game before NE army can be developed. It’s been a great trick.
- But I don’t think that’s the direction the game is evolving towards. Blizzard seems to wanna encourage late games where players can expand and fight with bigger army of more variety.
- We used to have UD acolytes easily harassable to delay UD, HUM peasants easily killable to stop HUM. Now, both of them have been improved. See how players of these two races can develop their army more easily than before and how the game has evolved.
- Opinion 1 - “This hasn’t been changed since the beginning of Warcraft”
- Moonstone duration increased from 30 to 35
- +2 now becomes +1 NE. Not as significant.
- Keeper of the Grove strength gain increased from 1.8 to 2
- Treant attack speed(rate) reduced from 1.75 to 1.65
- +1 NE together for Keeper. 0.2 per level is not significant, 25 HP at level 5.
- Treant is known for its tankiness. Its attack are ignorable most of the time.
- I don’t think these changes are good enough to help people play more Keeper. He still becomes immediately useless when there’s dispel.
- If the dev really wants to encourage keeper first play, a very good suggestion from the community was to add a bit of undispelable time to entangle, just like Dreadlord sleep. To compensate, the total amount of time can be reduced.
- Chimaera movement speed increased from 270 to 290
- +1 NE. Comparing large flying units - Chimaera and Frost Wyrm
- Frost Wyrm 270 speed, 0.4 turn rate, 1350 HP, 7 food
- Chimaera 290 speed, 0.5 turn rate, 1000 HP, 5 food
- It seems reasonable that Chimaera should be a bit faster than Frost Wyrm.
- But how much faster is good? Will need more experiments.
- +1 NE. Comparing large flying units - Chimaera and Frost Wyrm
- Moon Glaives upgrade now changes Huntress armor type to Heavy
- Added a persistent visual effect
- +5~+8 NE. I am a big fan of the direction. This gives us new meta/strategy potentials. Many people are tired of watching and using Bears, Bears, and Bears.
- But I agree with the concerns that this change alone could be OP. The position is very similar to the PTR1 Tauren change.
- Heavy armor itself is not OP. It can be countered in this game already. But the obvious issue is that, huntresses are too good against piercing damage once the upgrade is done. There could be a window where a crowd of huntresses just rush the oppo’s base, before there is enough magic damage.
- So the goal should be: keep the armor type change in T2, but not too early for a too easy rush. A few options are like
- Separate the upgrades into two. Make the armor type upgrade longer.
- Increase upgrade cost, since the same upgrade now gives two effects instead of one
- Or reduce movement speed to compensate
- Added a persistent visual effect
- Faerie Dragon Mana Flare is now able to be toggled off before the full duration
- Vorpal Blades upgrade now gives an additional 10 damage
- +1 NE. More flexibility to micro Faeries. Feels bad to see them often left behind and people can’t do anything about it.
- The actual buff seems not to Mana Flare but to Phase Shift though.
- Vorpal Blade buff is not very significant. Amongst the 4 siege vehicles, Glaive Thrower is still the worst with no special effect and no synergy with the other units.
Undead
- Reverted Spiked Carapace change
- Now 0 UD instead of +2~+3. Good revert. Was very unnecessary and not useful.
- Reverted Tier 1 Web upgrade
- 0 UD instead of +3~+5. Again, good revert.
- Reverted Gargoyle ground damage change
- 0 from -1 UD. I honestly liked the damage reduction, since it’s an effective way to avoid massing. Just see how the damage reduction on Faeries together with the other nerfs brought the meta to extinction.
- Gargoyle movement speed reduced from 375 to 350
- -1 UD. But not as big of an impact than damage reduction. I hope that I can do -0.5.
- Nerubian Tower attack speed reduced from 1.3 to 1.15
- I’d keep the +2 for UD. I think 1.3 is fair, since UD base and expo are in general very well protected with a Nerubian Tower up. People can mostly just try to stop it before it’s up. It doesn’t need any buff.
- Wand of Negation is now a single target dispel that deals 200 damage to summoned units. (Still has 4 charges)
- +2 instead of +3. Great to make it more flexible.
- But it’s a very efficient single target dispel. Comparing it with the other ones
- Using mana pot as a proxy to translate gold into mana: 150 Gold ~ 125 mana
- Best - Shaman 75 mana 400 damage 3(1) Paralyze (1 MP 5.33 dmg + good control)
- Good - 150 gold 4 times 800 damage… 37.5 gold ~ 31.25 MP 200 damage (1 MP 6.4 dmg), immediately available
- Worst - Dryad 50 mana 250 damage (1 MP 5 dmg), need research
- Even at 160 gold it is still a great item with 1 MP 6.06 dmg.
Summary
- Human was +1 ~ +3 now 0 ~ +2
- Orc was +13 ~ +22 now +8 ~ +14
- NE was +1 ~ +3 now +14 ~ +23
- UD was +8 ~ +11 now +2
NE in PTR2 was the Orc in PTR1. But this is not the end. Some good adjustments will be applied to NE in the next patch. In general, NE and ORC need the most adjustments based on their recent performances.
At a high level, I love the direction the PTR patch is moving towards. Many meaningful changes and adjustments since PTR1. Kudos to the dev team!
Looking forward to more!
Wait your rifleman with Long Rifles upgrade RANGE 100?
OK, it’s more easy to understood the logic to cry out.
Double check the math because the information post may misleading player by wrong data.
In PTR2 the misleading post regards NE tech failed to check it math and trans misleading information in that discussion.
I hope same error can be doged eSpecially when comparison is taking.
No more Disinformation thanks.
You are welcomed MR.mwp but only with true data.
Recheck number in range line, Try explain the 225% diff in any logical way.
Anyway, thanks for your work to compare the two units,
but disinformation, not you are not welcomed, should not appear anymore.
Ok, I do not know why my posts disappearing after editing, so one last attempt
Recheck number in range line, Try explain the 225% diff in any logical way.
It was just a remainder of comparison with Grunt
Wait your rifleman with Long Rifles upgrade RANGE 100?
No worries. It was just a typo, but in further analyses I pointed out a big Rifleman range advantage.
OK, it’s more easy to understood the logic to cry out.
But you know that you write to a person who thinks that NE is the weakest race, and proposed a lot of buffes in the original thread. I just think that this particular one is too strong.
Banned for using game mechanics? grow up, ancient of war creeping is not intended yet everyone does it and the game was balanced around it now, same thing with this, either they fix it or balance the game around it.
“banned” lol.
Scroll of Speed
increases the movement speed]of the Hero and nearby allied units to the maximum movement speed
cost 70g
Grunt with maximum movement speed ,
ORC must have won many championships recently, right?
With so many players coming in, NE didn’t achieve good results in the competition, let alone winning the championship
The next version requires significant compensation
So the goal should be: keep the armor type change in T2, but not too early for a too easy rush. A few options are like
NE has always been prone to being rushed, why can’t we give it a chance to rush others
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- it is dispellable
- it has limited duration
- it has limited accessibility
Still it is considered (and right so) one of the most crucial items in orc shop