I am a headless chicken. All is revealed! You replied to suggested changes about Undead against Undead. How can a race be made harder and weaker against itself? Reasoning was provided for each suggested change. Your reply would be more helpful if you identified which suggestions would make Undead harder and weaker. We’re not trying to do either. We want Undead having more viable strategies. Give us your insight how to do that
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Hi PTR devs thanks for look at the game internals!
Please consider this feature request - Feature Request - More information in replays
Consider it a potential opportunity to grow within Blizzard itself! The community could make really incredible tools that would help people play this game more and enjoy it more!
Hi, thank you for your support for the game.
First of all I would like to address a bug that exists and annoys me since the change from 1.26 to 1.27.
If you group different units together normally the higher tech/value/ability(don’t know the exact rule) unit comes first. So was it also with ghouls and fiends before the patch. If you had ghouls and fiends in one group on first position where the fiends and on second the ghouls. Since that patch this order has changed for no reason. Its really annoying with using web manually when you always have to tab first. So please bring back the old order with fiends in first position.
Here are my thoughts to some changes:
Human
• Militia Armor reduced from 4 to 3 (ok change, but not necessary)
• Defend piercing reduction reduced from 65 to 50% (ok change, worth a try)
• Defend cost reduced from 150/100 to 125/75 and research time reduced from 45 to 40 (ok change, worth a try)
• Siphon Mana Range reduced from 600 to 500 (good change, but not enough, would suggest 450)
• Siphon Manage area of effect reduced from 800 to 700 (good change, but not enough, would suggest 600)
• Slow duration reduced from 60 to 45 seconds (no opinion on that, ok to try)
• Heal range increased from 250 to 350 (ok change, but too much, would start with 300)
• Arcane vault requirement removed from Dragon Hawks and Cloud upgrade (wouldn’t change)
• Invisibility Range increase from 300 to 400 (good change)
•
My additional suggestions are:
• Add a Banish cooldown of 4 seconds
• Banish increase mana cost to 80 / 70 / 60
• Increase Siphon Mana mana cost from 10 to 20
That a lvl 1 Spell is able to complete disable a lvl 6 hero like a DH with metamorph is just a bad game mechanic
• Increase cooldown of holy light from 5 to 6 seconds
• Increase mana cost of holy light from 65 to 75
Reason: I think it should be similar to the DK deathcoil, it should also reduce excessive hl spamming vs ud
• Divine Shield, reduce duration from 15 /25 / 35 to 10 / 15 / 20 seconds
Reason: Its main purpose should be to prevent a heavy nuke or to stay longer in the front line in the late game. A max of 20 seconds should be more then enough.
Its a change that’s not very relevant for the top level player because this stage is rarely reached but on lower level the higher duration’s lead to very bad game mechanics in late game vs ud. Having a single Pala in your base or army who just clicks down everything without being able to attack him for 35 seconds, is just stupid. Its way too long. He also can prevent mining for 35 seconds by just camping at the goldmine. I don’t think its a good mechanic and it can lead to very boring and abusive late games.
• Reduce lvl 2 water elemental damage from 33 – 41 to 31 – 37
Reason: I think the damage jump from lvl 1 to lvl 2 is a bit too strong. Its even stronger then the jump from lvl 2 to lvl 3. The adjustment would middle these gap and also help to lower the early game power spike vs low hp heavy armor units and building cancels.
• Increase Staff of Sanctuary Cost from 200 to 220
• Increase Staff of Sanctuary cooldown from 45 to 60 seconds
Reason: Its already the strongest staff in the game with complete free healing and the low cooldown leads often to a stupid game mechanic in the late game with triple staff and no units dying. I think human is already very strong in the late game and don’t need that much support at this stage of the game. It just leads to a bad and not entertaining game state with a lot of running around and avoiding bigger fights.
Orc
• Mirror Image cooldown increased from 3 to 5 seconds (good change, but not enough, would suggest 6 seconds. If the cooldown stays low, I would like to see an easier mechanic then watching the attack damage to get to know which one is the real bm)
• Tauren now have Resistant Skin by default (bad change, please revert, one counter for ud vs trauens are master banshees, possession should still be possible on them, similar to other heavy armor t3 units like bears, aboms or knights)
• Lighting Orb cost reduced from 375 to 325 (bad change, please revert, its already a very strong orb, especially on the bm, there is no buff needed)
• Lighting Orb damage against summons increased from 150 to 300 (don’t see the necessarity but if changed, i wouldn’t double it, increase to 200 should be the first step)
• Envenomed Spears damage per tick reduced from 4 to 3 (bad change, windrider are in a fine state, no reason to change it)
• Wind Rider level reduced from 4 to 3 (bad change, windrider are in a fine state, no reason to change it)
• Sentry, Stasis, and Healing Wards are now magic immune
• Healing Wards duration from 30 to 25
• Great Hall build time from 140 to 125 (don’t see the reason to change it, please revert, but if so i would go with a smaller step, like 135, 15 seconds are a lot when in comes to cancel timings)
My additional suggestion is:
• Change mirror image mana cost from 80 to 70 / 85 / 100
Reason: It gets incredible strong on higher levels since it already gets stronger by the bm itself evolving. So you get more an also better images with each level. So by all of that it would make sense to cost a bit more mana on the higher levels and also less on the lower levels.
Night Elf
• Nature’s Blessing lumber cost reduced from 200 to 175 (fine)
• Hunter’s Hall cost lumber cost reduced from 100 to 80 (fine)
• Moonstone duration increased from 30 to 45 seconds (fine)
• Ultra Vision research time reduced from 45 to 30 seconds (fine)
• Orb of venom damage per tick reduced from 9 to 8 (don’t see the reason to change this, triple orb damage can be necessary to defend pushes, would revert)
• Mana Burn range reduced from 300 to 250 (bad change, please revert, the DH is in a total fine state at the moment, you need the range against heavy nukes in the late game)
• Mountain Giant Food cost reduced from 7 to 6 (don’t see any reason to change this, its a 1600 hp unit with strong upgrades, would revert. If you want to promote mgs i would reduce the build duration on Resistant Skin and Hardened Skin upgrades)
I would suggest to reduce the damage from druids of the talon in crow form but at the same time make them earlier available by reducing the research time of the adept upgrade by 20 to 30 seconds. Maybe to compensate a little bit of time could be added to the master upgrade research time to not overpower cyclone.
Reason: Especially in the late game druids of the talons in mass become imbalanced vs undead destroyers. Makes it unbelievable hard to kite and to counter heavy armor bears. This change would help to defend early UD pushes but not be overpowered in late game when a mass of talaons is established.
Undead
• Wand of Negation charges increased from 2 to 4 (could be ok, worth a try)
• Ritual Dagger cost reduced from 100 to 75, Charges reduced from 2 to 1 (not sure about that)
• Ritual Dagger healing increased from 175 to 200 (good change, keep it)
• Frost Nova range reduced from 800 to 700 (don’t see a reason to change, would revert)
• Burrow research time reduced from 45 to 35 seconds (also don’t see the reason to change but can be ok)
• Anti Magic shield blocked reduced from 420 to 300 (Bad change, pls revert, its basically only relevant vs hu in the late game and there hu magic damage is very strong vs ud, mass gryphons are already favored vs fiends, and also the bolt holy light nuke gets extremely strong, so i don’t see any reason for this change)
• Nerubian Tower cooldown reduced from 1.3 to 1 second (don’t see a reason to buff the nerubian tower, would revert)
• Web is now available on their 1 (ok change, but not really necessary)
• Carrion Swarm level 2 damage increased from 125 to 135 (ok change)
• Gargyole ground base damage reduced by 1 (don’t see the reason for this, gargs are already rarely played, would revert)
• Spiked Carapace damage return from 15/30/45 to 25/50/75 (fine)
Neutral
• Level 1 Rain of Fire increased from 700 to 800 (fine)
• Dark Ranger Drain Life can now transfer life to a friendly unit. (interesting change, worth a try)
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This is just utterly ridiculous, nerfing a hero that barely ever saw any play in 20 years because of some newfound strat.
My suggestion, if Blizzard do agree that pala rifle should be nerfed, has been the following:
- change Siphon Mana into draining allies as opposed to giving them mana.
Poof, gone, done with the pala rifle, but what’s more important, a new avenue of playing the Blood Mage has been opened.
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Frost Wyrm really need a cost reduction to 6 and a gold/wood cost redution.
Their stats are ABYSMALLY bad for their current pop & resource costs.
And without DKnight they are even worse garbage - which further makes the already mandatory DKnight even more mandatory.
Generally speaking UD need a rework where the insane benefits given by Deathknight are moved/spread from DKnight onto the least popular other UD heroes like Dreadlord and Cryptlord.
Vampiric Aura in particular is so useless for a race that has some of the worst melee units, particularly when usage of those melee units never relies on tactics that use the Dreadlord.
4 Likes
I agree with a Wyrm buff, but I simply don’t believe such a drastic rework of DK/DL could make sense. Can WC3 even sustain changes of this caliber? If anything, I’d just go with ults at lvl 5 (creeping to lvl 4) to make Dreadlord viable by virtue of Inferno. That would be both drastic AND exciting as opposed to reshuffling and nerfing.
Suggestion: Resistant Skin on Tauren is interesting to distinguish them from Grunts and not being able to disable this pricey unit in late game too easily. But once unlocked, you can get a good number of Taurens and they synergize with Spirit Walkers, who can revive and disenchant them, anyway. Shamans, too, can dispel by Purge. There is some redundancy there, but moveover, Resistant Skin protects from certain abilities like Charm and Transmute. That seems unfair considering Taurens can be viable to have a good portion of the army consisting of them (therefore shutting down Charm/Transmute) in contrast to Mountain Giants. And Frostwyrms are even more expensive, yet they do not possess this protection. And Polymorph was recently changed to target heroes, but only for a very short duration. This would not fit for Taurens. My suggestion would be to add an ability similar to Resistant Skin but weaker: It should not render the unit as a hero in terms of targetability and the durations of debuffs should be lowered by 50% or something. Or they are completely immune to certain effects like poison, only.
In comparison, Abominations need something they can shine with.
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Also, can the Dark Ranger kill herself with Life Drain or is there a limit?
Undead potrzeba wieksza pała, nie zabić na ciosa
Honestly moving ultimates to level 5 is the biggest most drastic and chaotic change you can possibly suggest, and would require rebalancing every aspect of War3.
Its fun but far beyond what blizzard would ever consider implementable.
Metamorphosis, Avatar, Mass Teleport, Storm/Earth/Fire, Tranquility and even Charm & Transmute would be EXTREMELY oppressive at level 5.
Especially because they are already tied to far superior & more useful heroes than the Dreadlord currently is.
If currently UD picks the Dreadlord as their First Hero they are crippled for the entire game because their DKnight & Lich are gonna be much lower level, and the Dreadlord as first hero does not have access to Clarity Potions at Tier 1 to actually feed his insane mana needs.
Just moving the HP regen from Unholy Aura to Vampiric Aura is the simplest way to give some purpose to both Vampiric Aura and the Dreadlord.
DKnight is still going to be the first hero for Undead in the majority of high ranked games, but perhaps the Dreadlord will be first picked once in a blue moon.
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You, dear devs, should fix obsidian statue disappear death glitch since 1.30, but looks like you technically cant do this due to your incompetence
“Every aspect of WC3”, but then you’re listing just 8 out of 24 ults that could be problematic. I’m nor saying it’s “change and forget”, I’m merely putting forward the notion for Blizzard to notice in case they ever have the mood for actual additions to the game without new coding, resources, spell effects and such.
Ultimates are already there, but never used. Most of them would be balanced, be it Bladestorm, Resurrect, Starfall or Locust Swarm. Nerfing a few ultimates (which don’t see play anyway due to lvl 6) to get to use them at all would be a welcome change. Let alone the considerations which would open for hero strategies.
Again, this is just an idea to those who constantly ask for a 5th race - maybe it is relative from forum to forum, but you can see them sometimes in chats. This could legit be a huge addition without the danger of being out of place, all the while effectively adding something new but 100% authentic - with only balance to consider (which can be fine given proper number reshuffles).
Thia would be an insane nerf to Undead, a fundamental change to the DK, it would also be super ugly for the Unholy aura to be a “speed aura”. At least suggest some new addition to compensate, maybe a Necrolyte-style “reverse regen” damage aura…
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I think the biggest problem with orb of darkness is that it’s a lvl 6 item. Not only is it the weakest lvl 6 item, but it is acquired far too late to be useful for creeping. If it were a lvl 3 or 4 drop that still made lvl 1 skeletons, it’d be useful. Also I’d like to point out that lvl 2 skeletons do almost as much damage as lvl 3 skeletons, but lvl 3 skeletons have far more hp, which doesn’t make sense.
I actually think paladin’s heal is a bit too strong early game. I think 1 second longer cd to match death coil would make it more fair. Bloodmage nerf seems a bit excessive.
Why do taurens get resistant skin and not aboms? If there’s one t3 melee that seems like it should have resistant skin it’s aboms.
1000 range seems a bit too low on Sentry Ward. 1200 seems more reasonable.
Let’s talk about a hero that deserved love in this patch:
Priestess of the Moon
One big problem for Starfall is that it cancels invulnerability. I think it would be fair to give her a brief period where she can’t be interrupted (2-5 seconds) so she doesn’t get canceled so easily every time, or make her go invisible briefly when the spell’s first used.
I think the attack range bonus on searing arrows should also be a focal point of the skill, increasing her auto attack range at all levels, not just +100 range for manual casting lvl 2 and 3 searing arrows.
But the BIGGEST thing that PotM needs, and what would help her viability more than anything, is a buff to her turn rate. This would make her a much more nimble harasser. Giving her a turn rate of 0.6 would put her in line with the other orb users: Naga and Dark Ranger.
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I realized magic immune healing wards will make late game Orc in free for all even more overpowered. Two 100 food armies on screen will guarantee the Orc has healing wards activated the entire battle, since they must be manually killed 1 by 1 and will not be visible underneath a 100 food army. 3 or 4 full mana witch doctors lay down 5 or more healing wards per battle.
Again, these patches are only considering solo games.
This in addition to the 1200 minimum health Blademaster illusions multiplying repeatedly.
Thanks for reading
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First, I don’t see how that makes any logical sense. Abominations are a patchwork of corpses sewn together where the skin is barely even attached to the body.
Second, Tauren might actually need something like resistant skin in terms of gameplay. Tauren are more expensive than Abominations in terms of both cost and food, making them relatively more vulnerable to CC effects. The Tauren’s stats also might not quite make up the difference in cost and supply.
Third, Spirit Walkers already have resistant skin. This sets a precedent for Tauren as a whole to have it as a racial trait–ignore Tauren Chieftains, because heroes already have reduced CC durations.
Don’t get me wrong, i like your ideas!
I would love ultimates sooner and completely reworked some of the heroes and units.
But i just don’t think blizzard will realistically put so much effort into changing War3 at this point.
Blizzard seems to be just doing things like “+10 movement speed” or “added resistant skin” or “armor increased by +1”.
So i am trying to keep the suggestions to the simplistic minimal that Blizzard is perhaps likely to implement , such as moving one number from one ability to the other.
Its not pretty and its not great but perhaps it happens because its simple and cheap to implement.
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My bias and view of current state of the game
I am avarage/weak human player. I have been watching the competitive scene for many years.
My tier list:
- Human, Orc
- Undead
- Night Elf
| - | HU | OC | UD | NE |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| HU | - | = | > | > |
| OC | = | - | = | > |
| UD | < | = | - | >> |
| NE | < | = | << | - |
= balance, </> - slight imbalance, <</>> - significant imbalance
- Human vs Orc. Pally Rifle, slight human advantage. Orc slight advantage in other cases
I would like to give a changes suggestion for each race, starting with NE which in my opinion is the weakest and needs urgent help.
Night Elf
Challenges with balance NE
- moon wells, make it very hard to balance NE heros (even a slight buff can be lavarage by moon wells)
- squishy units make it hard to play (except fast bear strat) especially on low levels
Blizzard Changes
- Nature’s Blessing lumber cost reduced from 200 to 175 - fine
- Hunter’s Hall cost lumber cost reduced from 100 to 80 - fine
- Moonstone duration increased from 30 to 45 seconds - fine but may be to strong, 40s probably better
- Ultra Vision research time reduced from 45 to 30 seconds - fine, was moved to II tier so it seems fair
- Orb of venom damage per tick reduced from 9 to 8 - fine, but only with additional NE buffs
- Mana Burn range reduced from 300 to 250 - fine but only with additional NE buffs (The main problem with demon is that is played too often compared to other NE heroes, additionally it exclude many heroes from opponent pick pool )
- Mountain Giant Food cost reduced from 7 to 6 - not necessary
My suggestions
I understand that it may be to much for one patch, but may be implemented in iterations 
Tree of Life
- Movment spped +5 (+5 movement speed means more or less, than opponent has to scout around 25% more area around expansion to find a tree. It is unique NE feature that in my opinion should feel to be strong)
Druid of the talon
- +50 hp in crow form (helps against UD)
- Remo’s suggestion of Faerie Fire reducing healing instead of gives vision is very nice
Ancient of Wind (Wind play is almost never seen it will help a little bit)
- -20 wood
Keeper (to weak in mid/late game)
- Nature’s Blessing
- +50 hp for treants
- +2 damage for treants
- +60 instead +50 movement speed
- agility increase per level +1.80 instead +1.50 (little bit better orb carrier in mid/late game)
Pristes
- Owl Scout (I know it is very similar to BM Hawk, but it is better than current state of the Owl
)
- Max one at the same time
- Remove invulnerability
- Add Permanent Invisibility
- Life 200/350/500
- Miss chance 10%/20%/30%
- Magical attack type with range 300, colldow 1.5s, damage 0/25/52
- +1 to starting strength
Mountain Giants (It shoud incentivise MG+dryad and MG+archer play, without making MG+bears overpowered. Proposed numbers should be probably tuned)
- Taunt rework - Links 5 other (level 3 or less) units to MG. 50% of the damage taken by they goes to MG (duration 20s cooldown 25s)
Huntress
- No idea
, but it should be done sth with them, to be a little bit more useful on tier 2 (you may argue that footmen is also unplayable on II tier, but in the contrast to footmen Huntresses are a significant investment)
Wisp
- They are very squishy, but I would not touch it for now, because it has a huge potential to break NE vs Orc balance
it’s a test server so please try more experimental nerfs on pala rifle strat
please try increasing Paladin Holy Light
cool down by 1-2 more seconds
and increase mana cost of mana siphon
btw all pros grubby starbuck etc etc agree the siphon range nerf doesn’t change anything
yes, please. A weaker version of Resistant Skin would be good for Tauren. Full-on Resistant Skin would be too much imo
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Guys lets not call for Tauren nerfs just yet.
Lets let Taurens perhaps be viable in 1v1 for the first time in 22 years.
Maybe they even become competitive.
Then we can consider calling for nerfs.
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