Undead balance issues

General Discussion
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Hello! I would like to give balance feedback. If you want to claim balance as in Starcraft for reforged you have a lot of work to do with undead, because they are way to weak. First let me come with some quick suggestions followed by more info.

Suggestions:

  • make mining alcolytes invulnerable unless repairing or if the mine breaks. Just like for nightelf or orc with a burrow at the expansion.
  • undeads problem is that they have no “meatwall” like other races, e.g. grunts fotmen, MK, huntress etc. Below points solves this.
  • move ghoul frenzy to t2. If you can move chimera to t2 you sure can move ghoul frenzy.
  • increase ghoul HP so that they actually can be used again. You have buffed all other races underused units so why not undeads? Undead is a question about ghoul or fiend, the rest is complements to your army. Canablize buffs etc won’t change the usefulness of ghouls in battle. They are still to weak.
  • make coil heal any friendly unit to make all tavern heroes accessible to undead as for anyone else.
  • put the same cool down on coil as paladins heal. Why should it be a difference?
  • rework deathknight ultimate to be as paladins. Why should it be like the only ultimate that can be dispelled? Making it completely useless.
  • increase litch HP. It is to fragile.
  • buff cryptlord impale so that it makes more damage and units are not thrown in the air and attackable all the time.
  • strengthen meatwagons and undeads defenses. They are theweakest in the game yet undead needs it the most due to the importance of T3 ant the fortifications of other races. The is no logic in the current situation.
  • actually the ROC upgraded necropolis was totally fine and suitable defense for such a tech dependant race.
  • undead has no response to human or orc air due to gyros and batraiders making gargs and destroyers useless. This must change. Because it creates imbalances. Basically undead has no usable air. Everyone else has.
    -hex and and raiders needs nerf, both damage to buildings and web. Blademaster is stronger than DK, grunts are stronger than fiends and you add Webb and hex to that… it should be clear that it is imbalanced.

please note that almost no undeadplayers wins tournaments. You have now produced 1.30 with a few changes to undead. Some things good some things bad. Alcolyte buffs are good, orb destroyer and statue nerf is questionable. In 1.29 nothing indicated that these things were to strong. Undead pro players still have far less win % vs other races so why would it need a nerf?

Let me Point out how UD works. All good players do 3 hero fiend statue push (Dk, litch and ranger). There is almost no other strategy that works agains good players because undead has severe issues.

A few of them are expansion capabilities. You have buffed a few things regarding this but it does not matter that much because undead can’t defend an expansion. Warcraft 3 is about being able to earn and/or defend expansions. Not just take them.

Now what is undeads problem vs other races? Well first and formemost all have stronger t1 and t2 and on t3 they can build counters that undead can’t beat regardless of what they produce. Example:

A t3 army of orc is unbeatable for UD. A timing attack is the only way to win. But with fortified defenses, hex, raiders and blade master we cannot stop orc expansions and hardly move at the map. The only way ud will win here is by being able to micro better, but ofc once players are at a certain level it is close to impossible. Furthermore, the orc orb is way to good and whyverns lacks counter. Orc has complete air dominance. If he goes whyverns and I go gargoyle as counter he does bats and I’m dead. So fiends are the only option but constantly stabbed goldmine, fortified expansion attack focus on fiends makes it very hard to win against players of equal skill.

Vs nightelf: kotg and mass t1 is now to strong. Also dryads + mg is impossible to counter as UD. Hippos are better than Gargs. Lots of expansion possibilities for NE, and endless tavern hero options. Basically undead has not a single strategy that works good.

Vs human: MK fast expansion is OP followed by goldmine drops. Mountain king bolt and clap way to strong. It is close to impossible to counter. Riflemen are now to strong. Steamtanks to strong in siege damage and vs air. This unit is hard to take out does siege dame and can crack any air? It is overpowered. Paladin is totally OP with like no cool down on his spells and endless heap options compared to coil. Gyros are to good making any undead air useless.

So what needs to be done? Add strengths and flexibility to undead. Other strategies than fiends must get better. Basically the list of changes I suggested might do it but so many units are to weak even after that. Gargoyle, destroyer,whyrm etc. You just nerf nerf nerf it all even if undeads even before that can’t win at professional level.

Do you not want Warcraft to be a four race game? Undead is supposed to be in the trash bin? If so then please remove it from reforged then and save yourself manpower and time or solve the problem. Because I’m not getting reforged unless you fix undead. I’m tiered of beeing at constant disadvantage and harassed to death :slight_smile:

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I thought human was in one of the worst spots in it’s history right now? I could be wrong as I’m not a pro player but I’ve been watching quite a bit of videos of human players feeling limited against the other races.
Also some of your suggestions seem a bit overpowered. Invulnerable acolytes when mining? Dispell on DK ult makes sense because units are invincible and Pallys res’d units are not. Pally is worst human hero and is only used as a support–Death Coil can heal undeads and attack anything else, the Pally’s spell is literally the opposite. Heal everyone else, only damage undead–It’s fine.

Don’t spiders have a web like Raiders to deal with air units? A lot of pro undead players I watch put spiders in their army quite often to deal with air units. Once again I’m not a pro but just suggesting some things based on what I saw.

We don’t want races to be the same like what Blizz did to classes in WoW–It takes all charm out of the game. A lot of your suggestions seem to want to make undead basically the same as NE and Human, in which case, why have them?

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Human is second worst. Orc and NE are har superiour to human and UD.

The units should not be invincible. DK ultimate should be exactly like paladins.

No its not OP with the alcos. Just attack the mine -> force repair -> kill them. The thing is that human Can Wall off their base, NE Can heal wisps with moonwells and they are hidden in the mine. Orc Can hide them in burrows and repair. This would be exactly like an orc borrow or ne mine. Why would that be OP? It is fair and limits game destructive abuse.

Yes Spiders have web. The problem is that air + ground is just klick attack and fiends needs to constantly be microed to survive in that situation. This creates a disadvantage between players of equal skill and very hard for UD at pro level. This is where the importance of a meatwall and stronger ghouls and air or nerfed air of other races comes into play.

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im undead main and while i do agree undead needs some tweaks, i dont think most of the points you stated are good buffs or true.

the haunted goldmine could offer a manual castable armor / spell immunity buff, but invulnerable is too much. there needs to be some weakness to the economy.

ghoul frenzy on t2 would be pretty crazy. but i think ghoul frenzy on t3 providing armor and hp would be a nice twist, too. ghouls arent so bad in the early and mid game. they only cost 120 gold.

i dont think coilable tavern heroes will give much to ud. its the races identity. healing potions and statues are sufficient. other races have to deal with that, aswell.

dk ultimate is pretty bad right now - a 1:1 copy of the pala ult would be stronger, but introduce kinda weird issues, because its a 1:1 copy. maybe the revived units could emit a slow aura (scary dead) or receive a speed buff.

lich hp is ok.

cryptlord impale got buffed and is pretty darn nice at lvl 2 and 3.

undead base is pretty good, especially after the ziggurat buff.

meatwagons really need more sustain.

dreadlord + panda wreck gyros. also nicely microed gargs with mass armor + protection scroll can beat gyros. there are ways.

hex is really annoying, but there are ways to play around that. dk lich pitlord fiends banshees with good micro are hard to stop.

the best player in the world, happy, manages to have a 99% winrate with undead.

pro ladder has some really nice undeads, aswell.

there might be some smaller issues, but overall undead is not in a terrible spot.

in fact, a small buff to ghouls could actually do the trick. fiends are being overused nowadays.

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It’s the common knowledge that the Undead has the most well-fortified fortified base in game.

But they have exactly that - the Abominations!

Overall, a weird perspective. Ghouls might use a buff though.

Warden’s Avatar of Vengeance says hello though.

Blizzard have homogenised Alchemist’s Healing Spray only to affect friendly units this year though. A bit sad, but at the same time now he’s a good hero.

I’m utterly against healing living heroes with the Coil though. That what the Coil do - damage and heal. Or else what, make it damage the undead if it’s on the enemy side?

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Okay we all have different views.

However, its the undead T1 and t2 that needs buff. Mabye buff ghoul would solve it. I am in strong favor of buffing ghouls HP and Amor.

Yes undead has abominations. So what? Its t3. Your good opponent has used his advantage in t1 and t2 and has twice the gold then. So Abbos are irellevant.

OK remove the dispell posibillity of the dk ultimate then. The most obvious choice of hero in the game has an ultimate that is USELESS. It must be reworked. Warden has a not dispellable ultimate so why should the DK not?

Look yes DL and panda kills gyros, so what? No human does gyros as main strat and UD needs coil vs human. The problem is that orc whyverns are to strong and orc batraiders and human gyros counters ANY AIR. That is the problem.

All races counter undead in the long run.

Undead has third best base defense. ORC and human has the best. Fortified defenses and good towers are very hard to crack for UD and defends expansion to well. Meanwhile the sige damage capabilities of all races are better but they dont even need it vs ”the so strong UD base” that is the most harassed , cheesed and abused base by your opponents

Futhermore followin nerfs are needed:

  • hex duration
  • significant longer cooldown on NE teleport staff. Your army is dead if you focus a few things that gets teleported as UD. Its extremely imbalanced. Nobody sees the problem, the difference? Entagle, protected mine, workers that Can dispel, chims t2, catapults that are homing missiles, teleport staffs… what does UD have? What freaking advantage does UD have vs ANYONE??? When and where? Tell me… please. it is a JOKE. Other races have endless options. UD has coil Nova and has to watch out for EVERYTHING. Still storm bolt, entangle, hex etc are better killers than UD nukez bacause it disables heroes while they Can be focused. As soon as UD fails to expand or looses one hero 90% of the time UD looses. The others can loose heroes 3 Times, fail expansions serveral Times and still win. It is A JOKE
  • orc orb
  • raider ensnare duration
  • mk clap and bolt
  • Keeper of the groove
  • alchimist
  • batraider
  • whyvern
  • orc and human defenses.
  • moonwell
  • expansion capabilities of other races
  • dryads
  • huntress
  • steam tank
  • riflemen
  • make all orc ground units slightly weaker
  • gyros
  • blademaster needs further NERF.

In general UD cannot be stabed and abused the first 10 min of the game. IT IS a JOKE.

What Can you do to UD? FS harass, BM harass, goldmine drop, ensnare, entangle, manaburn, bolt, Cole arrow, slow, tower pushes bla bla

Wtf CAN UD cheese? Almost nothing. It is a JOKE

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I’m really bad at ladder, but I was under the impression that Undead’s answer to not having inherent meatshields was their ability to kill the enemy’s meat shields and use them against them as skeletons?

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My freind. If you are really bad att Ladder… why comment on balance? Please…

Furthermore. This talk about happy… he is not the best player in the world. Second. How many big tournament has he won? 0 i think. Because he plays UD. Only one or two uds has won a major tournament in like 14 years and thats 120 and Ted ONCE each. Its called extreme skill with brackets luck. A majority of the time its orc, NE and human that wins tournaments. Because there pol of equal skill meet and then balance matters. I dont care if happy has 99% on northrend. The players are simply to bad on northrend for Such a good player. On netease or any major tournament he Will get destroyed by orc and NE anyway so.

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lol to the guy above saying Human is in the worst spot ever right now…what on earth are you on?

anyway, I don’t like your ideas for undead changes…Race differences are what make this game fun…there’s a race that fits every unique playstyle - and for those gifted ones that are able to successfully ladder with random…those too.

NO race is the “WEAKEST” right now…ToD was a gosu back in the day but he always whined and complained…he just always did, that’s how he is and how he will always be. Even when Human was at its “Peak” amongst ladder players, he still complained…I remember he would even say Undead destroyers were imbalanced when they were first introduced (even after they were patched).

Don’t buy into it…certain things are indeed broken right now - but RTS is constantly evolving its meta, so the game will always need to be patched so long as the playerbase stays full. Players are recently returning to the game so certain imbalances are going to be a lot more visible and even new ones will develop over the next few months before reforged is released…

I commend the OP for trying to be constructive in his post though - that’s generally how we used to address imbalances back in the day instead of just whining on the forums. GL all :slight_smile:

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Making things more similar (especially between races and between heroes) seems to be a common theme to this post, but IMHO these differences add flavor to the game.

I’m not saying that UD doesn’t need buffing (I’m not really informed enough to make that call), but:

I’m afraid I have to oppose almost all of the suggestions above, because they’re qualitative changes that aim to reduce the distinction between races (and heroes).

IMHO, balancing should almost always be done with tweaks to number values (i.e. quantitative) - and ones that preserve the unit’s flavor. Eg: raiders shouldn’t get speed reductions (nerf hp instead), siege shouldn’t get range reductions (nerf speed instead), and fragile heroes usually shouldn’t get health buffs (buff damage instead).

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As an Undead player, I can see the only problem: lack of flexibility.

There is simply no efficient strategies besides the meta ones. Fiends are quite mediocre units, slow and unable to hit air without T2, but gargs and ghouls can be only viable in mirror match. Blizzard buffed necros - but with a proper scout there is not a problem for an opponent to counter them.

So, you are stuck with fiends - and therefore it is easy for an opponent to predict your actions and counter them in advance. I think, buffing ghouls will be okay to add more flexibility in strategies. Acolytes are already strong enough.

The only “imbalanced” match is Orc vs UD, namely, with FS/wyvern strategy, cause you need much better micro than your opponent to counter it. Or Lich 5 :slight_smile: And there is nothing to do in early game, cause you have no dispell.
Yeah, I have some experience off-racing Orc vs Undead on ladder.

Besides, Death Knight’s ultimate is useless one, as well as choosing first Crypt Lord in 1x1 is obviously bad choice, but I doubt it will be ever fixed.

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Fong I don’t know how to tell you this, but if you want a paladin hero so bad then you might want to consider switching from UD to Human. They have a Paladin.

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I totally agree with the necropolis buff. Restore its DPS to ROC and pre-1.12 level. That would make UD base untouchable for any small ground army force.

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Anyways, we can see results of WGL cup, where Undead aren’t much better than Human :slight_smile:

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Ridiculous statement. so the number one distinction between races in Warcraft is that undead should be worst race and have one viable strat only?

That is simply not true. Everyone has different units, abillities and tech trees. My vhanhes is called BALANCING a game. Imbalance is not distinction between races.

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I agree with buffing ghouls HP, and perhaps increasing gold cost by 5

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Why are people trying to have a legit conversation in this obvious troll thread?

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This is the dumbest thread of the week.

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This guy totally has no idea about how the game works. Like a troll post more.

Yes Crypt Lord should definitely be buffed, Necromancer and Meet Wargon could need a visit, UD needs more flexibility in switching strategy.
Other than that, UD vs air is fine, Lich and DK are perfect, Ghoul is fine (maybe +1 armour), UD base is annoyed AF, Fiends along with Raiders are arguably the best units in the game, the web = air ensnare.

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