(I have never seen a discussion about such a simple solution to the ultimates, so please, don’t hit me too hard if I’m missing some huge obvious flaw.)
Reaching level 6 on any hero in 1v1 and 2v2 is such a rare occurence that ultimates basically do not exist as a concern in WC3. That’s bad design. I think, having them at 5 would fix far more things than break.
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It would be great for the ability choice at level 5. Now a Tauren Chieftain could choose between Shock Wave 3, Endurance Aura 3, or Reincarnation! More choices is good.
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It would make ultimates a bit more relevant when choosing which hero to train. Dreadlord first would be tentatively less of a meme simply because it would be a direct buff.
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It WOULD break some heroes, namely the meta first heroes that have broken ultimates. Namely AM’s Mass Teleport, DH’s Metamorphosis and Warden’s Avatar of Vengeance. Panda’s SEF and Alchemist’s Transmute would be sick, too. But I believe, it’s possible to bring their power down.
Plus, don’t forget that they won’t have a level 3 ability at level 5, so there is some drawback to it. A DK will never forego either Coil 3 or Unholy Aura 3 for Animate Dead. But a Lich might choose a weaker Frost Nova nuke for Death and Decay (prompting the opponent to pick an interrupt even more, though).
What do you think?
Imagine getting Infernal, Doom, Metamorphosis or Vengeance purely from creeping. Pretty sure it would break the game.
5 Likes
Doom Guard is dispellable. But my point is that problem ults can get nerfed, whereas the entire game would benefit from seeing ults more.
Doom probably wasn’t the best example, lets put transmute there. Also I still think its a bad idea.
Nerfed ults would approach lvl 3 power levels and lose the epic feel of casting one. I don’t think it was intended to be seen every game. The fact that it’s relatively rare makes it special.
3 Likes
The ults that decide the game on their own should always be nerfed anyway.
I find not seeing ults on at least the first hero bad design. And any new player would, too. “Ignore the cool fourth ability, Timmy, you’ll never see it anyway.”
it makes me sad seeing how many people are posting for changes when they clearly do not even understand or play the game 
RoC allows players to creep up to level 10, its fun at first but gets boring pretty quick… its much more fun seeing an ultimate in TFT because its rare and takes skill
10 Likes
Really, man? Really? This is your argument? Because it’s rare, it must be good? Exactly the opposite…
I’ve seen a good argument against level 5 on Reddit - because you can reach it via creeping, the PvE aspect of the game would get enhanced too much, thus reducing the need in engagements. That is a proper thought.
I still feel that an ultimate should not be reached in like 5% of all games as it is currently. I feel like your first hero should get the ultimate 50-80% of the time, unless the match ends in a rush/tower push.
I feel that it is the weakest point of the entire hero system. Even sacrificing a third of the three normal abilities can be justified as it is a utilitarian choice (based on the mana consumption). Even then you can do as you please and pick both the Bolt and Clap on the MK. Or Sleep and Carrion Swarm on the DL.
But with the ultimate, even a solo hero can barely reach level 6. Not that going solo is a viable strategy at all. Orc can never go solo. Human? Solo MK is weird, and you certainly don’t choose it for the sake of Avatar lol (more like for the hard-hitting Storm Bolts to catch the pesky Warden). Undead never goes solo… aside from the iconic meme Dreadlord - exactly for his ultimate, and it’s a joke strat at that. The only race that can legit solo is the NE with their [now nerfed] Warden.
It’s a shame that ultimates never get used, that’s all I’m trying to say.
Thank you for making it sound as if I didn’t know that, cause when I said getting lvl 6 in TFT takes skill, what I meant was that it doesnt involve creeping… like really? Really Bro like cmon… oh I suppose since I have to be sooo specific for you, I’ll make sure to say that its not just about the creeping aspect, but also it requires you to kill your enemies units too… seee you didnt say every little detail either zzz
I wasnt even argueing with you, notice who I clicked reply to?
Please dont reply if your only going to read half of what you want to read
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Didn’t read past the title but I kinda want to hit you 
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First step is probably to balance heroes. Right now there are only a few that see regular play. Once that’s done and a few seasons have passed looking at major changes like this might be something to consider…seems like a big jump before Re-forged is even off the ground.
If anything, they would tweak the XP given from creeping to push it rather than change the mechanics of how ultimate abilities work IMO. If it becomes a flat out race to get an ultimate that would drastically change the flow of the game.
This should never be the case
This would cause a shift in the meta as players would now just pick hero’s that have strong ults and passively creep til 5 before looking for fights. This would also encourage solo hero play in order to hit 5 faster for the ult. I dont see either of these as positive changes from a player or spectator stand point personally.
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I think that ultimates at Lv6 is fine. I don’t think the ‘Ultimates are special because they are powerful and rare’ argument is wrong, it makes closer/longer games more epic and enjoyable to watch and play.
Of course the game is already balanced in that area with Heroes being able to creep until Lv5, It would make it easier to even get multiple heroes with their ultimate and it would undo a lot of balancing up to this point, particularly the change from RoC to TFT.
If anything, the game has been fine like this for 15 years, and people were fine with it.
they could also just increase the amount of xp heroes get from killing units or neuts. But I agree, I want them to make the game more fun and this would do so, I’ve been watching a ton of replays and you’re right, not many actually reach lvl 6, and thats not fun. I think they need to start changing the game for the better, I know alot of wc3 vets are screaming “keep it the same” but the game needs tweeks, why do you think dota is so popular, its because they patch the game every year that completely changes it so it feels fresh, I hope they do the same with wc3.
Making changes is fine, but it has to be done in increments, and I would consider these ideas to change how XP works is a pretty significant change. I am all for them making changes later down the road, but my preference is to see an actual expansion released a year or two after Reforged. That way, instead of making a bunch of changes to the base game, they can keep TFT as it is and still bring us something fresh and new. We just have to be patient
They have been making regular balance patches to WC3 for like the last year or so already. The issue has nothing to do with refusing to change the game its that the proposed change by the OP is bad for reasons already stated.
Getting ultimate ability just from creeping seems bad since races like human that can creep quite faster compared to the rest would get a buff
Buffing / nerfing all abilities to fit the choice would be a loooong and grindy process and it will cause a huge comunity uproar
Making it so that you can only creep to lvl 4 might be a required change that will have outcomes I can’t really think of now
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What if you can only creep to level 4? Wouldn’t that palliate the problem (why have I remembered the word “palliate”…)?
Because now, reaching level 5 is quite a given with enough creeping. Whereas in this case, you could only bet on reaching 4. The rest should come then solely from PvP.
The only argument against this would be that level 5 physically requires less XP than 6. But at the same time, can you really measure it with creeping disabled post-4?
Also, don’t forget that even a hero having his ult at lvl 5 would be weaker than the same hero at lvl 6. The Demon Hunter, for instance, would have Mana Burn lvl 2. A small consolation, but it’s something to keep in mind.
I think there is merit in the concept, as it gives an interesting choice for players to choose to max lvl5 spells, or take an ult.
Unfortunately this game is balanced around ults being certain power, and some heroes not valuing ults at all, and changing this affects the balance and meta in an ubpredictable way.
We might see boosts in use for PotM and Dreadlord for example, but it also lends to exploiting dark ranger and alchemist ults early on.
If we cap creep exp to level 4, then we promote earlier 2nd hero play and limit single hero strategies into mid-game. Also heroes like Death Knight remain unaffected by this since their ult is not viable at lvl 5, considering Death Coil is much more valuable and his mana pool is limited at lvl5 to be using animate dead liberally.
But for a hero like Archmage, suddenly Humans gain a lot more mobility and harassment potential simply through creeping and harassing. This sorta promotes steam tank or mortar rushing even more.
1 Like