If the game goes to 80+ food or level 6 heroes, UD hits a dead end because:
The entire race has no cost efficient AA unit - gargs would need to become as cheap and strong as hippos for them to work properly. There is also the attack ground first bug that makes them terrible to control in a big fight.
UD casters do not autocast. Just think, would anyone use shamans if bloodlust had to be manually applied to every unit like unholy frenzy? Would inner fire be as good if it has to be manually clicked unit by unit like AMS?
UD has no realistic solution for dispelling. The only dispel has a long cooldown, and comes from a 5 food unit that dies fast to AA and piercing.
All units are cost inefficient. Compare the per food DPS of frost wyrm to chimera or griffin. Compare the per food DPS of fiend to rifleman or HH. This is made even worse by the fact that DK’s unholy aura does not contirbute to combat effectiveness, unlike endurance or devotion aura. Note that Obsidian statues at 3 food and 200g heals for 25 health per cast total and only 5 HP per unit, while priests at 2 food heals for the same - and can concentrate all 25 points of healing on a single unit. Why the hell is this?
DK is good at levels 1-5, but is very bad at level 6 due to lack of a useful ult. Same problem with lich. And yet, these two heroes are almost mandatory because UD depends so singularly on death coil and orb of corruption. I personally like to go alch/panda/DH first against UD, because I know that at level 6 my primary hero basically guarantees a free win. This is not the case against Orc or HU, who have their own strong ults (mass teleport, avatar, bladestorm).
UD has no AoE or multi-target damage sources. Where is the equivalent of flying machines, bats, taurens, tanks, griffins, hell even bouncing glaives, or chimeras? UD only has destroyers, which are very cost inefficient and become dead weights after a single fight and is not sustainable.
The developers expect orb of corruption to compensate for points 1-6 above by effectively skewing the DPS of all UD units up by 20%. But concentrating so much responsibility on lich’s auto-attack makes the whole army composition fragile - what if your opponent hexes/stomps the lich, or focuses him and forces him to kite? This is essentially the same problem faced by blademaster-centric orc armies, but taken to an even more extreme degree since it directly nerfs the entirely army’s DPS and not just the lich himself whenever lich isn’t attacking. Also, orb of corruption’s puny 20% single-target damage boost doesn’t trade effectively against good spellcasters, AoE units, and muscular heroes like MK and DH that get stronger than DK/lich more and more as the game progresses. With alchemist first I basically have AoE orb of corruption + DoT at tier 1… Come on.
I find matchups against UD to be the easiest by far right now (I am NE), because victory is basically assured by default as the game drags on into high hero levels and complex/big army compositions. Most UD I face are so scared to leave base before tier 3 + orb timing that they basically afk and fast tech. This turns the game into a questions of whether I can defend the tier 3 lich + orb timing or not after 9 min of waiting - and that is incredibly boring.
The matchup would be a lot more fun if crypt lord first were more viable (undispellable beetles?), or if ghouls were buffed so dreadlord can out-muscle archer/hunts. CL and DL are good examples of heroes with real ults, it’s a shame that DK/lich is mandatory.
Fiends are strong and cost effective. Web and burrow are incredibly useful, you can’t just look at raw stats.
Curse
The only dispel option they have is a free aoe that heals and enhances damage. I don’t feel bad at all for them. DR’s silence is more accessible later on because they’re the only race that can heal DR in combat and reuse the skeletons (dark ritual).
Wyrms slow, which reduce the dps of target unit. Unholy is useful in combat: regen helps a little bit and movespeed allows to reposition and surround more easily. You have to consider statues can give mana. Statues can also be recycled into destroyers once they’re oom. Also, if u need single target heal, you have coil.
Agreed.
Frost nova is a good source of aoe. Carrion swarm is also an option. Destroyers aoe ain’t bad against especially against HU. And disease cloud was buffed, it has a huge effect on longer fights.
Agreed. UD rely too much on orb.
DL is strong enough, it’s just that UD are forced to go DK because tomb or relics T1 has no heals at all.
UDs play fiends not because they’re cost-efficient. They play them because they’re ranged dps that goes well with lich orb combo while serving as AA unit for the whole race.
Abominations are the weakest T3 melee unit in the game (the lowest dps amongst all)
MWs are the weakest siege unit in the game (equal food with demolishers but higher compare to mortars and glaives, though weaker than all of them)
Necromancers are still a joke, together with all their upgrades. They need so much in order to be used (MW and statues) and all this might be ruined by a simple dispel. I think mana costs of the first and the third spells must be decreased. That’s funny enough that their master ability not much stronger than sorceresses first ability
ghouls see no application except early cheeses or DL related strategies, though frenzy upgrade (T3) makes them extremely dps\cost efficient they don’t see any T3 application due to HP and opponents army compositions, everyone anyway makes a transition into the fiends even if he begins a game with ghouls.
Gargoyles are very funny units. I don’t know how blizzard came up with this idea. They have the highest Food\Cost after flying machines while being complete trash. Bad AI makes them lose fights against theoretically equal oppos-hyppos, T3 upgrade that MUST NOT BE T3 is a funny thing as well. Basically, no one uses them except NE timing expo harassment in 1 game out of 1000. Good game design blizzard.
Their AI MUST BE FIXED, T3 upgrade MUST BECOME T2 and obviously they don’t worth their cost, either decrease it or make them more effective.
Wyrms. Do you guys know you have them in UD race? Tbh for a pretty long period of time I thought they are some sort of custom game heroes))
They just completely unused, like literally ZERO games on pro\semi pro\ladder games they were played. Building time or price must be fixed, especially when we have 300 gold MGs on the field, wyrms for the price of the hero looks wild for me.
Fiends. I don’t wanna whine about the fact that they’ll lose in 1x1 fight to both huntresses and riflemen (those are particularly sick, 15% dps buff was over the top)
But their web upgrade costs 150\150, it’s like seriously? They already forced to being played against all air either mass wyvs\hyppos-faeries just because gargoyels as a units are joke, but make their upgrade that control only 1 air unit for such a price. Just compare ridiculosly strong ensnare and Ud’s web cost-wise. If someone doesn’t know one web can control only 1 flying unit (CD equal to web’s length). That’s why everyone abuse mass air against UDs nowadays.
Complete lack of healing\clarities in the shop, will always force UD to play DK on competitive scene just because u can’t play without any sustain. Worth to mention that UDs the only race that don’t have clarities (of course UDs don’t need mana, sure)
Lack of the ability to put an expo, as simple as it’s. Either counter expo on the thinnest possible leg or nonsense with DL.
And the last thing that I’d like to mention is their heroes’ ultimates, 3 out of 4 heroes have ultimates that never being picked due to the fact that they are garbage. Either DK’s ult or Lich’s one (UD’s earthquake) just complete garbage. CL have reasanable ULT but it’s still way weaker than for example all HUM’s ones.
And as a conclusion say me that it’s all because of the orb. Orb can solve all these problems that I mentioned above. Tbh I’d with pleasure embrace orb’s nerfs if they made UDs finally competitive viable and interesting, not half dead and one-strategied as they are currenlty
UD balance changes will require a pivot away from orb towards… well everything else tbh. This would require the balance team to completely remake the functionality of UD units and heroes. Obviously that will take time, so they’re probably ok with letting the race stagnate as a DK/lich/fiend/orb 1-trick pony in its current state. The more one dimensional and boring a race is, the easier balancing becomes. It’s a brilliant way to reduce work load for the developers tbh.
Imagine if archers were super strong and all other NE units got nerfed to hell. Suddenly all the developers have to do for NE is balance the stats of archers to ensure that NEs can win 50% of their games by tier 1 rushing with mass archers…
Doesn’t sound very fun right? Well, UD is basically tier 3 rushing with the same hero/unit composition right now…
I agree that Undead should be given some strategic diversity. Going melee,or casters, gives them a disadvantage in most fights. The recent patch enabled people to go Dreadlord first a bit more often,which is really nice.
However, the main one-trick-pony strategy of Undead (fiends/destroyers or fiends/wyrms with tri-hero) is incredibly effective. In both solo and team games, a defining moment is when Undead gets their heavy air and orb. The recent nerfs made this as it should be, I think.
If it was strong strategy, UD wouldn’t fly away in all tournement during 1.30.
If you think that I’m exaggerating look at liquipedia, literally around approximately a half year UD won nothing, not a single tourney. They didn’t even go out from a group stage on winter WGL.
There’re 2 unplayable MUs currently: UDvORC and UDvNE.
So if you lost on ladder to standard UD with “heavy air” (wyrms? no one plays them currently they worse than 2 fiends, but have hero price dyk that?) it doesn’t mean that they’re strong. They desperately weak currently with half of the race being literally unused.
Yeah, and about orb I think everyone one knows that either NE and HU have thier own AoE orb of corruption on T2 in representation of the alchemist?
I personally believe Skeletons need to reward 0 EXP or else be more resistant to dispel.
TFT broke Skeletons. They added so many more units to counter casters and offer dispel that there’s no tactical advantage to using Skeletons. You’re just offering the enemy free EXP.
My freind. I am an UD player who has complained alot over the years. UD has Huge problems. Very honorable of you to recognize how imbalanced this game as an NE player. Thank you!
In ROC necros whas even worse because the shop contained a dispel item that completely dispelled it. So all one needed to do was to go to the public shop and make necros useless. That’s why I’m roc all ud could do whas tri hero mass ghoul.
Then they nerfed ghouls and nerfed fiends early in TFT. Not even needed nerfs. Ud is currently unplayable at pro level. All above comments touch on some aspects.
Wc3 is now a WCG game. It would be logical if it contained four playable races then.
If they don’t fix UD I won’t get reforged. Not a chance.
Even’tho it might be true that undead is the weakest race, I don’t see it as drastically is the posters before. A short little list of my “wishes”.
Rework the ultimates
Crypt Fiends cost 5-10 gold less.
Gargoyles cost at least 10 gold less + a huge amount of HP buff…
Sappers still hit pretty hard, Sapper + one hit is probably not enough.
Web: The cost is pretty tough indeed, so I would decreases the cold cost or even better: increase the range.
Magic Immune or exploding beetles might be an idea.
Spiked carrapace needs a very good and hard rework.
Lich +1 base armor
Cost for spirit towers is a little bit tough.
Gargoyles AI prioritys needs to be fixed of course, and I was also thinking about, reducing the time, before the magic immunity from stoneform kicks in
but that would look stupid with a faster animation…
Graveyard is a requirement for almost everything in the techtree, thats a little bit too much, I think.
T3 Shop has “only” healing scrolls available. This could or should be something completly different. Something that simply boost the hero stats for example, or a greater mana pot and before somebody is screaming: “THAT WOULD BE OP !!! !!! !!!” so is the staff of sanctuary and especially the tiny great hall.
Orb of corruption got nerfed but has still the same price, it needs alot of followup damage so at least -50 gold sounds about “fair” to me.
Something needs to be buffed about destroyers, they are very expensive but can become dead supply pretty quick, the cooldown for devour magic for 1 second or the normal attack damage without orb of annihlation…
Wyrms are probably fine how they are but 3 seconds slow effect is rough, compared to how fast they die or become disabled.
Deathpact: 50 manacost + a dead unit is rough, 30 or 40 mana sound and feel alot more fair, even’tho you are probably just picking skelletons, but then 50 mana for 180 HP is still alot.
Undead units are probably just overpriced and of course you need insanely good micro to become good with this race…
You’re demanding way too much and your offers might ruin the game balance again as it was with NE.
Agree after level 5 UD’s heroes scales just incredibly awful, it might be reworked.
why? Their main problem is web\borrow upgrades price. They have reasonable price and stats taking into consideration that you might coil them.
Here need more than 10 gold 40 gold at very least, coz even at 150 they’re not cost efficient, or either buff them
Nope, here everything is fine, everyone is in equal positon, all races.
range won’t change a thing but cost definitely should be changed or borrow should be incorp in web upgrade
Agree, afterall the worst summons in the game.
Agree, spell in uselessness prolly equal to thorns aura of kotg, but while kotg is T1 strongest hero, CL is one ability hero
Don’t agree, lich is ok as it’s not stronger not weaker than other int heroes.
Nope, it’ll lead to more effective TR while UD already have the most secured base.
True and I talked about that so many times…
Agree as well, but due to UD main idea (fiends are must have units) it’s not a problem in general, but for example it must be similar to NE’s chims that doesn’t require from now on an ancient of wind, while wyrms require sacrf. pit… (why?)
Agree with you, give UD healing scroll on T3 looks for me like some sort of bullying not less than that. All races have just nuts items and here we are- healing scrolls for UD, no words… Arguablly the worst shop amongst the races if not only rod of necromancy.
Nope even for this price it’s the most powerful orb currenlty. If they change UD normally I’d even nerf it to -3 armor.
Just their nerfs should be reverted. It’s super expensive flying dispel with 5 food and you even nerf them, what’s the logic was behind that I personally don’t know.
Wyrms are a huge problem, they literally see no application in current meta and arguably will if they won’t change either tech tree or price\build time. Asap from freezing wyrms is weaker than 2 fiends, while costs more food and wood so what’s the point?
Agree. This ability is so incredibly weaker than “good countrepart” buble, while costs more than that, what’s the idea behind that I again don’t know.
Undeads are the most cost efficient race currently, that’s why you as NE or HU can’t play 1on1 base against UD, u have to put an expo otherwise you lose. They have some price problems with Gargoyles\wyrms particularly but other than that all their units have reasonable price.
Good points. However, I think more needs to be done because the problem is that all other races has tons of stuff that UD can’t even dream of countering.
Nerf of bat raiders and buff garg together with steamtank rocket removal and gyrocopter nerf to be equivalent to gargoyle in damage per gold. Human already has enough AA why would they need a siege unit that crushes your base with siege damage, takes 10 S to kill with an entrie army and does splash damage to air? Stramtank and MG are totally OP and both needs nerf.
Hex nerf, ghoul buff, frenzy at T2, stomp nerf, clap nerf, rifle nerf, all banshee and necro spells possible to auto cast together with dispell nerfs and less Xp for skeletons and reduced mana cost of unholy frenzy. Unholy frenzy must be auto cast and remove HP degeneration, why should it be like a worse version of bloodlust with no auto cast??? WHY??? , reworked ud ultimates on litch and DK, cryptlord beetle should not be dispellable at all. Please think about the beetles. This can be a very important change. Suddenly ud can be played with a tank hero and small meatwall of beetles with ranged units behind. This is otherwise completely countered to death at T2 for all other races. They have dispell. The hero is useless because it is not the tank intended to. Why? Because of dispellavle beetle. It is mabye together with frenzy at T2, ghoul buff, the air fixes and caster buffs the single most important thing. Because it provides an army composition change and viable tank. Crypt fiend buff, destroyer buff, storm bolt nerf, KOtH nerf, dryad nerf, rifle nerf, raider ensnare nerf, meanwagon buff, destroyer buff, pocket expand in shop for UD etc etc, make Alcos invulnerable while mining just like whisps. The pocket expand should insta summon a necropolis, haunted goldmine and 2 ziggurat uppgraded to 1 spirit and one nerubian tower. Set pricing at 600-800 gold or something. Ud need clarity potions, healing items and invulnerability potions in shop also. A staff equal to human and NE teleport staffs would be fair for the race that has the weakest units. Some can tp a freaking MG every 20 sec or something and get it to full Hp…
And before anybody screams OP… Look at what the other have. PLEASE.
And seriously can someone please rework that blademaster?? It is still a JOKE.
There was nothing really wrong with the balance for the past 5 years til reforged was announced then a bunch of moba players came over and tried to mass buff heroes and stuff til it reached this point of garbage.
UD wins 50 food fights and 1 base v.s 1 base because UD is easiest to control, not because their units are better. If their units were better they’d be winning the lategame fights too.
You don’t need to be good at multiple strategies or even multiple heroes as UD, since you’re not allowed to use anything other than dk/lich/fiends anyways. Combat is basically a-clicking on a single target (orb literally encourages this) and pulling back injured fiends. This kind of super easy and intuitive control makes UD very OP in small food fights, but terrible later on since at 80+ food you can’t a-click with your whole army on a single target anymore. -4 armor might be awesome at 9 min into the game, but becomes funny at 20 min when you’re facing pulverize/storm hammers/flak cannons that multiply unit damage by hundreds of percent. Coil and nova makes for some clever kiting early on, but in the late game when your opponent has lvl 3 stomp or heal wave… Yea just gg and leave dude.
Blizzard is not stupid, nor do they hate all UD players. If everything is just bad and weak and hard to micro as you claim, they would do something. Just because you play UD doesn’t mean UD players are just somehow smarter, hardsomer, have larger genitals, or deserve buffs to their race… Go try playing with the other races 1v1 and see for yourself.
And yes, limited strats makes the game less fun for everyone involved… However, it isn’t a disadvantage in the eyes of a game developer who thinks that 50% win rate is the whole point of balancing.
Think of it this way: If all UD units, buildings, and heroes were removed from the game except necropolis and acolytes, but acolytes got buffed to the point where they win 50% of all games by just rushing every other race at tier 1… that be technically “balanced” and “fair”. Such a 1-unit race would also be incredibly easy to control because you don’t need to make strategic decisions. The less diverse a race is, the easier it is to control. Do you get it now?
We want UD to be more diverse, which will make it harder to control but also more fun and rewarding and watchable in tournaments.
Though I agree with some points, but do you understand that in order to make race more diverse you have to give them a choice and the choice might be only in case if unit is viable.
There’s no sense in playing neither gargs nor wyrms, as well as ghouls or other than DK hero (you completely lack any sustain on T1) etc. UD’s meta was shaped so many years ago due to orb of corruption and awesome coil\nova combination BUT UD is such a weak race with one viable strategy, I’m against giving them everything coz together with nuke and kiting potential it might become unplayable for others than UD (in which situation we’re currently with NE both kotg and MGs are so obnoxious), but currently they’re so weak at every level of the game from amateures that face base lamers and mass air dudes, to 120 that went against moon 2-0 without even a slight hope of success, that what I call a bad game design and those crutches that UD use in order to win anyone isn’t good game design as well-rushing T3 with one hero and 1-2 fiends just in order to have even a small hope to win basically any race you think is ok?
They’re kinda doing this already by shaking up Night Elves and having the Keeper more viable in the face of a 10-yr long DH first meta. I can’t say for sure whether the current situation is a good or bad thing, we simply haven’t given it enough time to tell. Yes, it seems way too imba right now and even NE pros admit it, but this is a strong example of what happens when Blizz tries to diversify a new meta into play. Sometimes, it just because too effective and shifts everyone to use it instead. I mean, tbh, DH is just as viable as it used to be; the only difference is that the Keeper seems easier to employ so people gravitate towards it.
And yes, I’m leaving out many details that I’m sure someone here will point out reasons why the Keeper is total imba, but that’s sorta the goal of shaking up the meta. If they just balanced the Keeper to equal standing as a DH, then people would have stuck to what was familiar and not use a different hero who performs the same. I do think the Keeper needs a stat nerf, just not right now. Closer to Reforged release perhaps.
One small tweak that they can make is to buff Lich Dark’s Ritual.
I am not sure how people did the math for this skill.
First you need 25 mana to replenish your mana - doesn’t make sense.
Suggestion: remove the mana cost for the skill. Make it similar to FarSeer’s far sight.
Second, take the cheapest unit - ghoul: 120 gold for 340 life,
this means level one skill gives you 340/3 - 25 = 88.3 mana per 120 gold, that is 0.736 in the most ideal case! It is cheaper to buy mana potion that gives 150/200 = 0.75 mana per gold.
Blizzard can easily buff the skill to 50/75/100 percent. At least there will be some use of it.