You’re manipulating me to think I’ve won? Dude this is an argument on an internet forum, you have literally nothing to gain from this. Varimathras has a lot to gain from the situation he’s in. Big difference right there.
Yes the wrathgate was right… there’s your third party explanation… happy now…
Oh wait you want to keep arguing for the sake of arguing?
He lost? Yeah he did.
Who did he lose to?
Was it Sylvanas on her own? Nope… she got userped and cried to Thrall for help.
Varimathras lost because the alliance and horde teamed up against him and his forces. There is no possibility of victory for the Forsaken when they are forced to content with both the Alliance and Horde, he got outnumbered.
Now why do you think the Horde came to Sylvanas’ aid?
That’s the point I’ve been trying to make this entire thread. Were the Horde allies with Sylvanas in Frozen Throne? If so, link me a source which proves that they were.
I’ll be waiting…
As for the Alliance, you don’t have to bother, Jaina encouraging Varian to help the faction that nearly doomed his entire race to extinction in a matter of minutes is laughable in itself.
Oh and for the record, the only reason why Sylvanas was even part of the Horde to begin with was because the Horde needed a racial leader with breasts.
He lost for the very reason the Forsaken joined the Horde. The writers and game designers willed it for their purposes. That has always been my point.
The story is very particular and we get what they give us. We can interpret events however we like. However, your interpretation requires the assumption that dreadlords never lose to work (ie plan everything including their own losses) and that doesnt hold up considering we know Varimathras loses VERY badly especially by Legion, meaning his previous assumed ‘wins’ through actively losing are undermined by his lack of plot armor.
This is solidified by WoW lore, and even without WoW lore the campaign plays simply as the dreadlords losing.
I can link you a endgadgetc article from 2007 that states the same thing. Nothimg about Dreadlords propping up the Forsaken as a puppet faction, nothing about Dreadlords planning it all. Of course, this would be futile because a) it was written after WoW was released so you would disniss it and b) it doesnt fit your narrative so you wont accept it
And that is why WOW lore is a BS and why I don’t want it in Warcraft 3 reforged.
They had the story there but Sylvanas got a massive hunk of plot armor due to WOW’s retcon of the Forsaken joining the Horde.
That is the only reason Varimathras failed, he was literally foiled by a retcon.
Had the story not been retconned, he would have succeeded. If you follow every single part of WOW’s lore and ignore the retcons, you will realize that I’m 100% correct when I say this.
Now If Varimathras did succeed, would he win? Not necessarily, he still had Kel’thuzad to contend with. It would have made for a very interesting conflict of equal minds.
I’d argue that if anyone was to defeat Varimathras it would be Kel’thuzad. Kel’thuzad might be a mere lich… but he has the book of Medivh, that book made him extremely deadly because it holds the knowledge of Medivh… the guardian of tirisfal, you know? The guy who’s job was to protect Azeroth from the legion to begin with?
Edit: I forgot to explain to you the reason for this retcon in the first place since you probably aren’t smart enough to pick up on it so I’ll spoon feed it to you:
The reason why the Forsaken were retconned into the Horde was to Balance PVP… oh and like I said before to give a horde racial leader a pair of breasts.
If the Forsaken were not in the Horde they wouldn’t be able to function in Battlegrounds. Therefore, from a gameplay perspective it was a necessary change… but it came at the cost of lore retcon.
In a Warcraft 4, this would not be an issue because there are no Battlegrounds in Warcraft RTS games.
Everyone including Christie Golden, Richard Knaak, even Chris Metzen was forced to build the rest of the lore around this idea of all playable races being in the Alliance and Horde and the playable factions always winning. You can’t blame the writers for this (even though Knaak writes a load of drivel… but that’s just my opinion).
This argument has been very productive actually because it really helped to expose all the damage that has been done to Warcraft Lore and it shows what the lore could have been if it wasn’t for WOW.
The original story will still be basically the same, they just gonna add some more details from the books, comics and WoW lore…
Just because they did some questionable things currently on the story, doesn’t mean this one on what they currently doing on the WC 3 will be bad, they just wanted to update it, I mean it would be more confusing if they retell the outdated story again, while the other sources tells a different version of the same event…
I do hope, that they give us an option to switch between “Classic” to Updated WC 3 story, so that not only it can satisfy the “No Changes” Players, but also it would allow some of us to see the differences of both old and new campaign stories…
It doesn’t need updating and it shouldn’t be updated. They will ruin it if they change a single line of dialogue…
Just keep it the same… how hard it is to be true to the original game?
Sick of Blizzard trying to pretend Warcraft 3’s story never existed to the point that they need to re-write it to silence everyone who calls them out on their stupid retcons.
It’s just petty at this point… seriously.
Plus it’s insulting, it’s like saying “the story you loved back in 2002 wasn’t good enough so we’re changing it, deal with it”.
And any change made by Blizzard now is going to be a bad change. Especially since Sylvanas of all characters is the one they plan on changing the most.
Of course, lets change the character that caused all the BS in the lore to begin with because she has so many fans now and is so popular that we’re going to retcon her into more of a mary sue in Warcraft 3.
I’m freaking calling it, it’s bad enough how she is in WOW but in Warcraft 3… no, please no… do not taint Warcraft 3 with WOW’s Mary Sue Sylvanas… please for the love of all that is holy…
Warcraft 3 lore is not outdated; WoW lore is messed up.
They shouldn’t have been changing the lore continuously. Why did they do it in the first place? And just because they screwed up with WoW doesn’t mean they have to transfer all that incoherent mess into Warcraft 3. I could make my peace with some minor details, provided that they don’t change the original story (like giving a name to Arthas’ captain; it won’t do any harm), but that’s all.
You mean just like how Warcraft 3 lore was much different from Warcraft 2 lore which was much different from Warcraft: Orcs & Humans lore?
Legit sounds like a personal problem.
They’ve confirmed that there’s going to be the original/classic run of the campaigns and then the Reforged ones with the extra fluff writing and whatever geographical changes they’re making to the maps.
I mean, no? That really depends on the line. Like if instead of the Lich King declaring “Now we are one” we hear “Now I’m going to have a huge internal meditation about banishing my humanity and consuming Ner’zhul’s spirit”? Yeah, that would be a bigger change. But I don’t really think that’s the angle they’re going to go for with whatever Reforged rewrites or additions.
This is just goofy considering the first three expansions of World of Warcraft, as an example.
Even Battle For Azeroth harkens back to events in Warcraft 3.
So… Arthas? Who is responsible for a lot of everything that happens (just like Medivh who brought the orcs into Azeroth or the night elves who first put Azeroth on the Legion’s radar).
I guess it’s a good thing it’s going to be the Warcraft 3 timeline so we don’t see any WoW era happenings with Sylvanas then, huh.
They will make Warcraft 3’s Sylvanas just like WOW’s horrible Sylvanas… I know it, they will try to make her look more significant and cooler, much like how Richard Knaak tries to make Rhonin look like the most badass thing ever in the history of Warcraft lore… a human mage capable of decimating massive armies of demons that is not a guardian of tirisfal…
They’ll probably change Sylvanas’ death scene so that she looks more badass and make her death look less humiliating for her and make it look like Arthas nearly lost or barely defeats her…
And then when she comes back from the dead in TFT she becomes super edgelady and her undeath makes her automatically demigod levels of powerful… just like what Knaak did with Rhonin, it happened before, it can happen again.
Rhonin and Sylvanas will then become the main characters of Warcraft 4 after reforged retcons… two unstoppable mary sues.
Rhonin then cheats on Vereesa and gets together with Sylvanas and Sylvanas becomes a dragon Then they have kids who are also dragon morphing elves…
The the dragon aspects will all be playable races… forget the orcs and humans, all the campaigns will be for each dragon aspect because the dragon aspects are more important now.
The very thought of this is nightmare inducing but the sad thing is that I fear this may actually come true considering the state of WOW today.
Personally I have zero worry about the latter because Blizzard’s motto has always kind of been “rule of cool”. If they make a character more appealing and interesting, neat. Good on them.
The former? She already is significant in Warcraft 3. Not in the absolute grand scheme of things but, you know. Enough to be around for a few campaigns.
So Khadgar?
Dog the latest iteration of that (and we’ve seen it many times since Warcraft 3) was her power-sliding towards Arthas on her knees and getting absolutely PUNKED by him. It’s not very flattering and way more comedic. Even throughout the Scourge campaign in RoC he addresses how much of a nuisance she is and, as far as I remember, doesn’t really ever think of her as a threat.
congrats you’ve discovered what banshees and Warcraft undead in general are
The only thing I fear is that your tinfoil hat is on a little too tight.
Khadgar was Medivh’s pupil you know… he learned from the guardian himself… Rhonin was practically a Kirin Tor dropout.
It makes sense for Khadgar to be able to defeat demons since he has medivh’s knowledge. It makes no sense for Rhonin to have that level of knowledge but in the War Of The Ancients trilogy he is so knowledgable about demons that he becomes a tutor to Illidan…
Sure I might be exaggerating about things a little but I don’t like where the lore is heading and I’ve seen it get this way before… it can’t be good to change Sylvanas in Warcraft 3… it just can’t be.
It’s comparable in no way. Of course there were some retcons from one game to another, and to be honest some of them annoyed me, but it’s not even close to what happenned since WoW.
Besides, why would retcons in the old games necessarily call for more and bigger retcons in WoW and then in Reforged? Mistakes from the past shouldn’t justify today’s mistakes.
Don’t make it sound like I’m the only one having this opinion. Over the years I’ve seen countless people, forum threads and various comments about WoW lore being incoherent and too much retconned. I mean, Just play the old games again, and then look at WoW… It would take days just to describe how different and incoherent Warcraft universe has become, mostly for gameplay reasons.
Yeah it’s important to remember that Warcraft 1 and 2 barely even had a story outside the manual. Warcraft 3 was the first fully fleshed out story that Blizzard ever established for the series. Plus Warcraft 1 and 2 had multiple endings, Warcraft 3 only has 1 ending.
Learning from the guardian =/= being the guardian, still. There’s a big power gap.
Oh, ya think?
u wot
Especially with the release of the Chronicle series, it just seems like they want to iron out all the kinks and unify the story. Tie more stuff together.
Gee I dunno about you guys but back in 1996 it really boiled my lobster that when Warcraft 2 came out, they retconned the human campaign and had the orcs win. Then in 2002 they had the AUDACITY to tell me that, yet again with the release of Warcraft 3, one campaign wasn’t canon and that the Alliance won instead of the Horde.
does blizzard even know what they’re doing??? amateur hour i swear smh famallamadingdong
Even magic has its limits and those limits are usually limited by knowledge and brain capacity. If every mage was as powerful as Rhonin, there wouldn’t need to be any guardians of tirisfal to begin with.
Jaina wasn’t made out to be half as powerful as Rhonin. If Antonidas was as powerful as Rhonin, Arthas and his troops would have been devastated, Kael’thas isn’t even that powerful to begin with, name one thing he did in Warcraft 3 that was powerful, he is magically talented, sure but he is by no means a master mage that could survive a fight against a demigod.
Illidan… well he’s a special case. He’s part demon now so he is significantly stronger than the average mage.
Then they have kids who are also dragon morphing elves…