Then the Dreadlords had no reason to obtain her as a servant.
They already had multiple working bases within the established Plaguelands. There is also no reason for the Dreadlords to assume she was going to stay in Lordaeron either.
Sylvanas says “My only interest was seeing Arthas dead, I have no time for your petty politics or power mongering”
At that point, Varimathras could easily let her go do her own thing. She wasn’t a threat to them. He doesn’t need to manipulate her; she’s already fighting the same enemy
Instead he threatens her and gives her an ultimatum. So yeah, if he wanted to test her power then he’s an idiot, because all he did was make himself a target by cornering her in a box rather than letting her fight her battle against the rest of the scourge and dealing with her later. You know what would have been the sensible solution?
“Here’s a portal to Northrend. Arthas’ is heading to the Spider Caverns.”
Keep in mind that Detheroc had already taken control of Human forces in the area. Varimathras has his own forces. And at that very first meeting, they see that Sylvanas has a single-minded goal of fighting Arthas, which isn’t a threat on their own plans.
The ultimatum was unnecessary, and was the catalyst for their downfall. That is not manipulation, that was overconfidence in stating that they are the future of the Plaguelands. That is what the story intended us to see.
What kind of manipulator plans control of the Plaguelands by undermining their own progress by setting up a puppet faction that they have no actual control over? This is why the Scarlet Crusade story makes sense, whereas your interpretation of TFT does not. We already know they can take full control over various factions, they didn’t need Sylvanas to serve under them.
The dreadlords most certainly had a reason. Right at the start, Detheroc complains about having to watch over “rotting undead”. They weren’t making any progress and it was frustrating them. The burden of rule is too much for the Dreadlords. They might be political masterminds but they do not want all the hard work that comes with being a monarch. Dreadlords do whatever they can to avoid hard work.
Therefore they needed a figurehead, someone who had similar intentions, someone who could distract Kel’thuzad so that the Dreadlords could keep a low profile.
Balnazzar and Detheroc chose Garithos to be their figurehead because they didn’t trust Sylvanas. Varimathras however believed that Sylvanas was more fitting for the role because her hatred for Arthas would be a valuable weapon for them.
You have to remember that Dreadlords don’t like to involve themselves in conflict directly, they like to use pawns or manipulate nations to war one another.
Placing Sylvanas in command of lordaeron was the best way for the dreadlords to cause chaos, Varimathras knew this but his brothers couldn’t agree. He had to find a way to get her to that position of power and in the end he wanted to take all the credit anyways… because he’s a Dreadlord and he has no love for his brothers… after all, friendship isn’t in the Dreadlord’s vocabulary. They would backstab each other on sight if they could, hence why it is forbidden for them to kill one another because otherwise it would be chaos. Varimathras came so far into the plan that he realized that he couldn’t back down. In addition, he believed that his crimes would be overlooked if his plans succeeded, that way he could curry favor with Kil’jaeden and become more powerful/higher ranked in the Legion.
And with all that assumed knowledge, you have a Dreadlord that masterminded her into power without actually having any control over her.
Because where is the actual evidence that he has or can control her? All he has done is give suggestions. If the story doesn’t show him actually manipulating her, then as far as the story is concerned, he is not able to. If he is not able to convince her to spare the other Dreadlords, then he is unable to manipulate her.
For the audience to believe he has any semblance of power, they must be shown an example of his manipulation. If he is unable to sway her even when it comes to the death of his brethren (even as small as a hint that it’s a faked death) then we have no reason to assume he is as manipulative as you say he is.
Because he has a silver tongue… Varimathras didn’t need any special power to control her, he just took advantage of her biggest flaw: Her ego.
You can tell that he was enjoying every minute of it (in a dreadlord kind of way), even going as far as to mock her part way by saying “You’re becoming more like one of us with every passing day milady”
Talk about crossing dangerous ground… with the person you claim he’s supposed to be afraid of…
I’m sure he enjoyed begging for servitude, loved to betray his brethren and was overjoyed at her initial response to him.
His empty threats were made to make him the exact thing he ended up being - a cowardly, mustache-twirling villain who gets laid low by the main character. As I’ve broken down, you would have to assume that he’s a masochistic mastermind who controls Sargeras himself to be able to make the logical leaps as you seem to be doing.
Cuz after all, it was the Nathrezim who corrupted Sargeras, amirite?
If the Dreadlords are as important as you say they are, then they should have ended their part of the story with full control over the Plaguelands and have Sylvanas be shown as a puppet. All it takes is one post-credit cutscene of Balnazzar and Detheroc talking in the shadows about how their plan went perfectly.
There’s no such thing as cowardice in nathrezim society, only foolishness. Dreadlords are anything but honorable, they play dirty. He took great pleasure in watching Sylvanas play into his hands. It was perfect for him, she hates Arthas, so does he. It’s just too convenient for him.
Your edit says that Varimathras controls Sargeras. That’s very wrong in so many ways. Corruption and manipulation are two differrent things. They cannot control Sargeras directly. Let’s just say that they planted a dark seed within him.
They cannot control Sargeras directly. Let’s just say that they planted a dark seed within him.
Then they don’t control Sylvanas either. Nor do they control Arthas. This just goes to show that they are great at manipulating but (as we are shown through Mal’ganis, Tichondrius and the rest) terrible at actually controlling anything.
I will give you that. They are masters of manipulation. But within the context of TFT and Sylvanas’ story, they do not control anything directly.
If you trained a dog to attack on command and the dog kills you because you couldn’t stop from attacking you, then you can’t say you have control of the dog.
If they can’t prevent Sylvanas from undermining their own progress in the plaguelands, then they have no control over her. I mean why would you write a story about the Dreadlords controlling the Forsaken if the whole story had the Forsaken taking all power away from the Dreadlords?
Like I said, it could have been rectified with a post-credit scene showing the other Dreadlords talking about Sylvanas’ progress. We didn’t have that, thus no reason to assume it happened.
I mean you may as well headcanon this to Mal’ganis still being in control of the Lich King because he faked his own death. Sure, that’s why he controlled Arthas to tell Illidan how to defeat Tichondrius, right?
Because the Dreadlords are really that cunning, that’s why. They aren’t just going to go with a conventional plan are they?
The reason why Varimathras never had any post credit scene was likely because they wanted it to be a plot twist for the next game. The Forsaken had only just been established. There is such a thing known as subtlety you know…
They didn’t need to control Sylvanas, they just needed Sylvanas to be the face of power in the plaguelands, that way they could keep a low profile.
Plus they’d have something to show for all their efforts as well has having someone else do the hard work of watching the troops while they do other, more important things.
Anyways I’m done arguing for now because I need to sleep.
Then… All you said was folly considering the follow up story did nothing with that assumption, making it even more obvious that it was not going to be a logical conclusion to draw. I mean you already posited that Sylvanas could have just left. So what is keeping her there? Varimathras’ threat? What if she didn’t attack because of his threat? If it were a test, why didn’t he just run away instead of begging servitude? I mean the so-called plan you have here would have to rely on her attacking and winning, to the point where she wants to attack every other Dreadlord (which was not anything he suggested) and having every other Dreadlord ‘fall’ before her in order to prop her up as a puppet leader. That requires a lot of reaching.
I don’t know how you can argue that the Forsaken are a Dreadlord-controlled faction.
@DeathlyGod is this how you would have interpreted the Forsaken as well? As a Dreadlord-controlled faction?
What’s keeping her there? Varimathras of course. He said “You can either join us and rule or be cast aside”. Truth be told, she never had a choice, he would make her a ruler whether she liked it or not. He stayed true to his words despite Sylvanas’ stubbornness because he knew that he could take advantage of her ego regardless.
It didn’t matter who was in charge, all that mattered was that everything went according to plan… and that’s exactly what happened for Varimathras, hence why he was so quick to “beg for his life” because he knew Sylvanas’ interests lined up with his so it was a useful enemy mine for him. Varimathras, like all the dreadlords didn’t want to be in charge anyways, they wanted Sylvanas as the figurehead from the start. Remember that Varimathras offered her to join them and rule, not necesarrily be a minion to them, they wanted her to be in command. Sylvanas had no interest in it but Varimathras took advantage of her ego. Deep down, Varimathras was in control “An assault on these walls would be suicide” “Come now, you have no intention of giving them their lands back?” “This battle can only be won through attrition”
This was all brought up before Sylvanas even bothered to say anything, ideally Varimathras wanted to avoid the conflict but Sylvanas was adamant so he made a choice to side with her. Sylvanas only decided to use the banshees after Varimathras’ warnings, otherwise she would have attacked those walls, not that she would admit that, after all if she didn’t need his advice, why would she spare his life? Answer that question.
Notice that he clearly wants to avoid conflict with the other dreadlords at all times. That’s why he is not loyal to her whatsoever but he still wants her to believe she is in a position of power so she lets her get away with making the decisions. It doesn’t stop him from heavily influencing them though… which is his plan to begin with. He wants to make her into a dreadlord (mainly so that she would be useful to him).
Or she could have kicked their asses and took over. Which is the canon story we see in TFT.
So no, joining them wasnt an enivitable outcome. It was a possibility, and frankly one that you are making logical leaps to justify.
Why is it a logical leap?
Example - Imagine if I suggested that Hillary Clinton planned to manipulate the election and government by getting Trump voted in by sabotaging her own campaign. The only basis for this theory is that politicians are known to be manipulative and Trump technically wasn’t a politician and could be/is manipulated by her.
How believable is that narrative? Its a theory based on half-truths and assumed scenarios. If I can posit this narrative about politics based on the fact politicians lie, then I can posit any scenario because liars and deceivers are (assumed) capable of manipulating everything.
You have spun the narrative that the dreadlords did not lose based on their capability to lie and deceive. With that in mind, you have created a scenario where they can never lose because it can be used to excuse any potential failure. You have supported a biased vision of what you think Dreadlords should only be- flawless decievers who always have control.
That means an obvious narrative where they lose can not exist in your view. So no matter how much I point out flaws in the dreadlords plans, you will assume they planned it all. Which is like a radical (democrat) theory that Hillary is manipulating Trump by getting him elected. I would see that logic as a way of avoiding accepting the fact that she lost the election, and not dealing with the fact that she loss.
Honestly you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing, either that or you are in serious denial.
You are the one who has spun the narrative that Sylvanas can never be manipulated and that Varimathras using her for his own ends isn’t plausible… because it is very plausible indeed. Heck it’s pretty obvious if you understand the nature of the Dreadlords which you clearly do not.
Sylvanas had no interest in taking over Lordaeron but Varimathras forces her interest by attacking her. He clearly wanted to stop her from leaving. She fell right into his clutches the moment she spared him… and he was confident that she would is he stroked her ego because she is a high elf and high elves are super egotistical, especially Sylvanas, that is her biggest weakness.
If Varimathras had any intention of winning the fight against Sylvanas, he would have attacked her without warning with a massive army before she could react, he told her beforehand that he would attack, he was clearly testing her and luring her into his trap because she was a vital part of his plan.
There is no other possible explanation for Sylvanas to stop pursuing Arthas to become queen of Lordaeron. It’s like how Palpatine made Anikin into a Sith lord. The whole point was to give Sylvanas a false sense of security.
You’re just spewing a load of rubbish at this point. Everything I mentioned makes sense, it all adds up, you have to be seriously delusional to continue this argument by now.
The problem with that theory is Varimathras completely loss.
If the intention was to prop up Sylvanas as ruler while they control the Forsaken, then they could have done that by giving her support from the beginning.
No reason to push buttons, no reason to test her. Literally just give it to her like how Kelthuzad or Anubarak just appear as allies.
The story is not written like that though, and we see them defeated. If a story shows you this, then that is the story. You cant then use headcanon to support an alternate scenario, because Varimathras did not suggest to her to dominate the plaguelands after he lost either, she did that all on her own meaning your theory doesnt quite work to explain why she didnt just leave.
Even RoC showed us that Malganis was in control despite any losses. He told Arthas to go to Northrend, he didnt just say ‘I will be back with a reply’. There was no ambiguity at all.
And no, Sylvanas is not infallible because of my explanation. She was infalible becuase she was a POV character with a story written about her winning against all odds. That is my point, you are not arguing me, you are arguing the story.
Therefore it was not a plan in their control, otherwise it would have easily been clarified with a post credit cutscene showing them talking about a plan working perfectly.