???
Your reply was exactly what I said. I am not sure what you are trying to say if you said exactly what I did. I’m fully aware that she was given more development in TFT due to popularity (or whatever internal reasons they had) and that it’s not the direction they originally had planned out in ROC because like you say, there was no plan. I don’t see what I said to indicate otherwise.
Blizzard pls don´t change the story of WC3. Changing something so great can only fail. WC3 happend before WoW and there´s no reason to change characters, their decisions or dialouge just to fit them in WoW. I think it´s more interesting to see how a character has changed instead of pretending he already was like that, when it´s not the case. If you want to add new story elements to WC3 than add new missions or cutscenes which cover events during WC3 we have´nt seen yet. For example: How did Illidan and Vashji meet, how did Sylvanas preserve her mind, where was Maiev when Illidan escaped.
Lore is for nerds. gimmie the gdamn game
Personally I really do not like WoW at all.
I have never been much of a online gamer and when I found out about WoW I hated the idea. And now that we are getting this remake I sorely hope that they stick to the original lore. Since they butchered it in WoW.
Only one thing I would want to change is making Jaina pregnant with Arthas kid, I would love to see Arthas getting redemption as he gets killed by his own kid (daughter) with Jaina being with him in his final moments.
I just wanna play as Lich king Arthas and decimate hundreds of enemies as well .
Sorry for bad english
Agreed. Dreadlords weree not developed and they didn’t know what later they would become… Still what they depicted them was what they were. Now more than ever I’d say I hope they don’t start making a novel like proposed here…
Wow has a terrible lore full of patches and holes… Warcraft 3 should be a stand alone
“My Only interest was seeing Arthas dead, I have no time for your petty politics or power mongering”
Stays in Lordaeron and gets involved in petty politics/powermongering instead of chasing Arthas to Northrend
That people is what I call a character with an identity crisis.
Oh and lets not forget that Sylvanas says “I’ll never stop hunting you” to Arthas before he leaves… I guess she stopped hunting him them on her quest to rule the plaguelands.
Such a terrible, poorly written character… and in WOW she’s even worse. She should have stayed dead in ROC, would have been so much better in the long run.
The only purpose for her entire existence in the story was to get players to root for Arthas since they needed a character so unlikable that you’d be willing to connect with a villainous psychopath.
He needs an agenda because he’s a dreadlord. Arthas charged into Lordaeron about to kill Balnazzar, Detheroc and Varimathras, they teleported away because they didn’t see it comming.
Lets look at it from this perspective, why would Varimathras attack/threaten Sylvanas? It’s pretty obvious that the Dreadlords have plans for Sylvanas otherwise he wouldn’t have invited her to join them in the first place. This was discussed ages ago when Balnazzar said “She will never side with us”, it’s clear that the invitation was a lie as she would never be able to join the Dreadlords but Varimathras tried it on which kinda gave away his plan to the player, he realized that it didn’t work so he instead decided that the best way to do it was to fool her into thinking that she was in control.
Heck you could argue that Sylvanas’ entire character change was actually Varimathras’ doing in the first place, he clearly manipulated her into joining him. You didn’t see Mal’ganis beg for his life, nor did you see Tichondrius beg for his life either. Varimathras wouldn’t have had the chance to beg for his life… unless he planned to do so to begin with.
He knew Sylvanas would win so he tried to use her perception of superiority to his advantage because that’s the best way to manipulate high elves, feed their ego.
Sorry to break it to you but you are as much of a nerd as we are because you are on a Warcraft 3 forum. Only nerds come on these forums.
There are narrative reasons why you dont see Malganis or Tichondrius begging for their lives. Dreadlords in RoC are in a position of power, Arthas and Illidan are aggressive and direct usurpers with a take no prisoners attitude. Even in respect of Sylvanas, Arthas didnt make her a slave or servant. He just ripped out her soul and left her to suffer.
Sylvanas was shown to be Arthas’ opposite. She is an Elf, she fights with subtlety and deception. Her story isnt about brute forcing her way past the dreadlords, its countering them and usurping power through manipulation. That is why Varimathras acts the way he does; he is a supporting character to Sylvanas’ story. That is how a story is typically written; supporting characters can have their own motives and individuality, but they exist to add depth to the main character. That is why Varimathras is seemingly different from the rest of the ‘die without begging’ dreadlords. The story is about Sylvanas taking a different path from Arthas. Her story needed a character of substantial presence to be manipulated and controlled, and Varimathras happened to be that whipped dog. Again, his role could have been swapped with Garithos or a Scourge commander, but it just happens to be a Dreadlord, namely due to the irony of being a master of manipulation who becomes manipulated.
Arthas and Illidans ‘power levels’ are visualized through their accomplishments, they both are able to overpower high ranking Dreadlords. Sylvanas’ identity is defined the same way but in cunning rather than strength; she’s powerful enough to command a Dreadlord.
Arthas gains his army through conquering and raising them. Sylvanas does so through mind control and manipulation. Her story would be no different to Arthas if she literally killed all those who stood in her way. Instead she takes a note from Kerrigan, pitting each side against each other then swooping in to take control.
100% agree. I dislike how they’re trying to turn her into another full character, when in RoC she was literally the most annoying speed bump in the Undead Campaign.
I don’t think she’s a terrible character, but she’s definitely inconsistent after Arthas escapes her trap. Like is she blinded by revenge like Maiev? Is she a savvy tactician solidifying her base? Is she a power hungry tyrant? We don’t know because we get a bit of all of these.
Great point actually, I never really thought about it like that. Makes a lot more sense than looking at her as an independent character that’s completely in control. Her possible readings are either, A. she has ADHD and forgot about Arthas, or B. she’s being manipulated somewhere along the line. I gotta say Triceron is fighting a losing battle here.
Yeah, cause that’s TOTALLY how she was when she commanded the High Elves during Arthas’s invasion. Mmhmm.
Er, what other way did she fight? She didnt take Arthas head on at every pass. She dodged him and wouldnt give him a straight up fight. Thats subtlety.
Well tbh if they’re gonna give Sylvanas more lines and focus, they’re probably gonna make Varimathras look even more cowardly in Reforged.
Maybe we played different Campaign levels. She continuously was on the front lines, and most missions you ended up having to smash your way through her spawned waves just to reach the enemy base. Not exactly my definition for “subtle” fighting. And leading attacks on your enemy base while they’re entrenched is hardly “dodging” him. It barely even counts as Guerrilla Warfare.
I’m not even sure the technical capabilities of AI in War3 were very capable at representing guerilla warfare. What you got instead were 2-3 missions of fighting through her forces and her backing off and hindering your progress each time. Storywise, there was less direct combat than you had fighting the Dreadlords.
The first time we see Dreadlords actually acting cowardly and avoiding direct combat was in TFT. In ROC, Mal’ganis and Tichondrius weren’t afraid of a direct fight. Mal’ganis didn’t run away as much as he was intentionally baiting Arthas to Northrend, as was planned from the beginning.
Absolutely 100% incorrect.
Kel’thuzad even comments about Sylvanas implying that she is very much like Arthas.
Regardless you are just making assumptions as to how you think the story is written, that does not make your argument any more valid than mine.
You assume that Varimathras is a mere support character for Sylvanas because you assume that Warcraft is a one dimensional story.
Warcraft is not a one dimensional game, World Of Warcraft on the other hand is a one dimensional game. You’re essentially getting WOW confused with Warcraft.
Sylvanas was originally used as an antagonist for Arthas but they later gave her a story of her own.
Varimathras has a story of his own as well, he is working together with his brothers in a scheme that doesn’t involve Sylvanas at all.
Just because he’s a secondary hero unit in game doesn’t mean that he is less significant in lore.
The Dreadlords as a whole are more significant than most of the cast, they are pretty much the driving force of the game. Their job is not to build Sylvanas’ character, their job is to act as the player’s guide, a means of pulling the player into the grand plot with their schemes.
Varimathras isn’t just some support character, he was arguably setting up another subplot for a future game much like how Mal’ganis beckoned Arthas, how Tichondrius guided Arthas and the Warsong Clan.
Now Varimathras is guiding Sylvanas. You see, Sylvanas likes to appear confident in herself (she is an elf, naturally that means that her ego is the size of a planet) but deep down, Varimathras’ information was critical, he warned her of the dangers and she took that advice but without crediting Varimathras, claiming she already knew what to do beforehand… but she didn’t mention her plans until Varimathras was finished.
Also why would she have brought Varimathras along if she didn’t need his help? Sylvanas likes to appear to be in control but deep down she is desperate and needs Varimathras but she doesn’t really like him very much.
Still, Varimathras’ constant suggestions throughout the campaign shows that he is truly the one controlling her, guiding her on her way to monarchy… notice that her character is slowly beginning to forget about Arthas… yeah exactly, it was all part of Varimathras’ plan to make her the ruler of Lordaeron from the very beginning.
If this wasn’t the case, she wouldn’t have got involved to begin with, Varimathras is the one who forced her involvement and he did so deliberately to lure her into a trap. That way he could bolster his forces and remain hidden from Kel’thuzad so that the Dreadlords would have a foothold without being threatened by the scourge.
You have to remember the Dreadlord’s situation at the time, they were desperate. The scourge was powerful… but Arthas was not, they knew Kel’thuzad still posed a threat and that he would track them down and overwhelm them quickly. With Sylvanas however, it would take the Dreadlords out of the picture and start a war between the scourge and the forsaken, eliminating the Dreadlord’s direct presence in the conflict, allowing them to do other things.
The fact that this actually came true in WOW is proof of Varimathras’ intentions. However, even without WOW, it’s easy to see his intent by simply observing the dreadlord’s situations, their mannerisms and also Varimathras’ signature quote “I’m always on the winning side!”
This quote proves that Varimathras did not become Sylvanas’ slave out of fear, he did so for his own convenience.
Of course they will because Sylvanas fanboys will demand it…
thats not to say that it was the original intention of the writers.
This is why Reforged is going to be a disaster if they make these changes to the lore.
Mal’ganis ran away from Arthas… much like how Sylvanas did. Mal’ganis had no intention of fighting Arthas, he believed that the darkness would take over Arthas before Arthas could defeat him.
Tichondrius was taken by surprise, he didn’t expect Arthas to contact Illidan…
Now who’s the crafty one? You say that Arthas is all about brute force? That’s 100% incorrect. Arthas has a very logically tactical approach to every situation. He knew that facing Tichondrius head on would be a bad idea but he realized that convincing Illidan to do it would be a better idea. Plus he also decided to break down the trees instead of the elf gates at quel’thalas because he was smart enough to think outside the box.
The entire culling of stratholme was a smart plan, kill them while they’re innocent to avoid any needless casualties (of his men that is since the innocent townspeople were already infected and couldn’t be saved anyways).
Arthas is not as stupid as you make him out to be but he definitely isn’t the smartest.
Sylvanas isn’t as smart as you make her out to be either, she’s pretty dumb. She stood against a foe she clearly had no chance against and got defeated by him. If she was smart, she would have retreated and evacuated the townspeople to escape by sea so that they could call for reinforcements. She didn’t, she stayed and because of that, she died due to her stubbornness and so did her people.
Kel’thuzad even comments about Sylvanas implying that she is very much like Arthas.
Yes, in terms of strong willed, single-minded determination. The differences I mentioned should be obvious; they differ in methodology despite having similar goals and broad histories; both being high ranking ‘Alliance’ commanders who became corrupted into Undeath, and both are highly motivated individuals with great ambitions.
When I said opposite I meant in the way they approach combat and fighting. Sylvanas employs more subtlety in her tactics, using people against each other rather than Arthas’ direct approach of brute forcing his way through any obstacle. Let me clarify to say this is in reference to TFT Sylvanas, not her 1-dimensional RoC incarnation.
You assume that Varimathras is a mere support character for Sylvanas because you assume that Warcraft is a one dimensional story.
No, that’s you putting words in my mouth and making assumptions. That would be a strawman argument, because at no point have I ever stated or inferred that War3 was a 1-dimensional story.
Sylvanas was originally used as an antagonist for Arthas but they later gave her a story of her own.
Varimathras has a story of his own as well, he is working together with his brothers in a scheme that doesn’t involve Sylvanas at all.
Without TFT, RoC’s Sylvanas would have remained an Antagonist. Would you agree? So without any follow up to TFT if we treat it as a self-contained story, Varimathras does not have a greater story. His story is very simple in that regard. Yes, he has his own motivations, but all of his plans were undermined by the very person he tried to manipulate. He was being played. That was his entire purpose in the story, otherwise they could have written it in a way where he championed Sylvanas and intentionally served as her second in command.
Instead he gets served. His story parallels Gul’dan, except instead of WC1 Gul’dan in control of Blackhand, he is WC2 Gul’dan being the whipping boy under a new usurper. However the difference is we never saw Doomhammer’s perspective in WC2, whereas Sylvanas is directly the protagonist of the story.
If Varimathras was intended to hold a greater part in the story, they wouldn’t have written him in a way where he was defeated and forced to kill one of his own people. He wouldn’t have been written to take orders directly from Sylvanas showing his ‘loyalty’. They would have shown a different scenario entirely if that were the case.
The Dreadlords as a whole are more significant than most of the cast, they are pretty much the driving force of the game. Their job is not to build Sylvanas’ character, their job is to act as the player’s guide, a means of pulling the player into the grand plot with their schemes.
Eh, that is your interpretation. I could say the same about Garithos. How many dimensions did he have? How is he different than the Dreadlords? He also had motivations, we played him directly in the campaign. What does that tell you? It tells me that despite War3’s story complexity, there are elements of the campaign that are meant to be taken straight up and not headcanon’d into some ulterior, hidden motivations that are left for future speculation.
Varimathras isn’t just some support character, he was arguably setting up another subplot for a future game much like how Mal’ganis beckoned Arthas, how Tichondrius guided Arthas and the Warsong Clan.
Again, your interpretation. That would be like saying Chen has a greater part in the Horde beyond his role as a supporting character based on the fact he’s explored the world. Based on TFT events, no, that would not be true. His role was to support Rexxar (if Rexxar accepted) and anything beyond that is pretty much flexible.
Also why would she have brought Varimathras along if she didn’t need his help? Sylvanas likes to appear to be in control but deep down she is desperate and needs Varimathras but she doesn’t really like him very much.
He is her Starscream. He is her WC2 whipped dog incarnation of Gul’dan. This shows her as an Anti-hero/possible Villain who commands the loyalty through fear and dominance. It wouldn’t have the same effect if she was only commanding Murlocs and Ogre creeps, would it?
Still, Varimathras’ constant suggestions throughout the campaign shows that he is truly the one controlling her, guiding her on her way to monarchy… notice that her character is slowly beginning to forget about Arthas… yeah exactly, it was all part of Varimathras’ plan to make her the ruler of Lordaeron from the very beginning.
If this wasn’t the case, she wouldn’t have got involved to begin with, Varimathras is the one who forced her involvement and he did so deliberately to lure her into a trap. That way he could bolster his forces and remain hidden from Kel’thuzad so that the Dreadlords would have a foothold without being threatened by the scourge.
And that’s where the story deviates. It shows that she can outmanipulate the Dreadlords. The story is set up to be a mirror of Arthas, but that is in order to show how she does things differently and obtains power and control differently. She doesn’t have the Lich King whispering in her ear. She doesn’t have Frostmourne, or allies like Kel’thuzad. Again, this is her story, otherwise Varimathras would have been a straight-up ally rather than a whipped dog. It doesn’t matter if you think he will betray her sometime in the future for some greater purpose. That is headcanon.
The fact that this actually came true in WOW is proof of Varimathras’ intentions. However, even without WOW, it’s easy to see his intent by simply observing the dreadlord’s situations, their mannerisms and also Varimathras’ signature quote “I’m always on the winning side!”
Says the guy who says WoW lore is terrible. Sorry, but this destroys any credible thing you say from here forward. Our discussion was on TFT bereft of any WoW lore. This was something you actually brought up and grilled me on earlier for having brought up WoW supporting evidence. Now you’re doing it here.
You can’t denounce WoW for having a terrible lead-up story, then turn around and use it to support your argument. Either we are talking about TFT as a standalone story, or we’re taking account all of WoW lore as a part of the discussion. There should be no picking or choosing, otherwise you are simply going to waive any mention of WoW lore that I bring up as being ‘terrible story writing that shouldn’t have happened’ all while using it yourself to show ‘See, this is what happened! It supports what I said!’.
Legion would be a pretty big indicator of what Blizzard thinks of Varimathras. Wrathgate’s conclusion should be a pretty big indication of what Blizzard thinks of Varimathras being a support character. They completely wrote him out of the picture and have replaced him with Nathanos. If we take WoW lore into account, then Varimathras has less of an impact as a support character than a rando-NPC out in the middle of the Plaguelands.
If he’s always on the winning side, he wouldn’t have made Wrathgate so obviously his own doing. He would have hidden all ties with Putress and blamed it solely on him. You are aware of this, right?
The logical conclusion here is Blizzard doesn’t give Varimathras any limelight because few people consider him a compelling support character. Blizzard writes the story based on how people respond to characters, and we know this through how Sylvanas had a bigger role in TFT due to her popularity in RoC. We know this by them getting rid of Garrosh because players didn’t respond well to him as a leader. We see this by the completely diminished role Pandarens have in the story despite having an entire expansion focus on them.
Sadly, what drives the role of the characters are their popularity, and that is how the story is written in WoW. So if you want to use WoW as supporting evidence of motivations, we need to take that into account. In my perspective, the lore does not abide to the Dreadlord’s power as it is represented in Warcraft 3. The lore is whatever the story tells us, and as far as we have seen, you already hit the nail in the head by saying the Dreadlords were in a desperate faced against a more powerful Scourge. What we have seen throughout that story was their overconfidence and cowardice, and how it lead to their eventual downfall. There is no further evidence that leads us to believe they would be manipulating anything in the future (other than Varimathras retaining a Starscream-esque persona).
You argue with me over literally everything for the sake of just beating me in an argument… just admit it dude… it’s every single thread on this forum I post in, you’re there arguing with me, it’s kinda a joke at this point.
In any case… on to the argument itself:
Now I have to read another wall of you saying the exact same thing again.
For starters I never used WOW to prove my point, I even said right afterwards that even without WOW you can see his intent.
I was just telling you that the original plan was for Varimathras to use Sylvanas for his own ends before WOW was even a thing.
You keep accusing me of using my own interpretation yet you use your own interpretation to argue your points all the time.
You say that Varimathras is like Gul’dan. Not even close. Gul’dan was hated by Orgrim from the very beginning. Sylvanas barely even knew much about the Dreadlords at the time other than the fact that they’re there.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it makes zero sense for Sylvanas to fight against the Dreadlords unless Varimathras is controlling her. She had no desire to become the leader of the forsaken, she just wanted revenge against Arthas.
Varimathras is the one to make her a leader, he had her in his pocket the whole time. The fact that you cannot see it makes you delusional.
This is Sylvanas’ story. Continuing to believe the Dreadlords (and Varimathras) hold any true power by the end of their story is delusional. Again, this is not the Dreadlord story, otherwise Varimathras would not have been a supporting character whose power is taken away and is forced to display his loyalty by betraying his own brethren.
I don’t see how you can interpret that conclusion as retaining any of the manipulative prowess of the Dreadlords. They are brought low by their own ‘creation’.
It’s not “Sylvanas’ story” that’s like saying it’s “Arthas’ story” it’s not. It’s a story that involves a lot of characters that all have equally important parts to play.
Except they are not equal, otherwise Varimathras would not be a supporting character. He would have been a POV character.
Arthas and Sylvanas (in TFT) can be considered equal characters, because they have complete campaigns focusing on their characters and the outcomes of their actions. Varimathras was not a POV character, and supported the story in the same way that Muradin and Kel’thuzad do.
Who are you to dictate what is what? You can’t just say that one character is more important than another. This isn’t World Of Warcraft, this is Warcraft. Sylvanas only lives in WOW because fanboys. She’d have disappeared ages ago if it wasn’t for her fanboys.
Dreadlords would never be slaves to mortals, because disobeying Sargeras is a fate worse than death. They have to have an agenda, either that or they’d be better off dead. Varimathras clearly has an agenda, he wouldn’t side with the mortals if it didn’t benefit him because ultimately if he betrayed the Legion, he would suffer a fate worse than death.