I’m not siding with WOW lore, in WOW lore, Varimathras gets killed by Thrall…
What you said has no base at all… Even taking into account the story up to this point… In world of warcraft… Sylvanas won…very straight forward… He betrayed her and was killed… Which seems ridiculous…
Look at what they did to him for killing his brother… If what u said is true… He would have completely bound himself to sylvanas in order to remain unharmed… If I do something so terrible that I will be punished home and then I run away… I won’t openly do something that could take me back home… I would do all I can to stay away
…and that is… Stay quiet and not make a coup d’etàt…
According to you own side of the story and this was all a plan… And he’s so smart and cunning and mischievous… In world of warcraft he would have done things soooo differently… Instead of what happened… 1 maning Vs horde and alliance… That doesn’t seem cunning or strategic whatsoever
You arent siding with WC3 lore either, I can tell you that. You are making up explanations for things not in the game, like him wanting to take Arthas’ armies. Where did you find this information? Because it is not in TFT or WoW
Right now what I would like to do is stating my thoughts on sylvanas… During warcraft 3 she wasn’t evil… She never did anything necessarily bad…
1-she killed many innocent, just as all other characters, even the ones considered to have the highest morals.
2-she couldn’t just die. She’s bound to her torment
3-she only attacks when the dreadlords threaten her.
4- taking Lordaeron as a safe heaven for her people was only logical… Hell if I had to wipe out the Vatican because is the only way my own people would survive… I would do it right now… Given the chances…
4-shes not a good character or a bad characters she’s only someone who cares about her people
Talking directly about wow
5-she wouldn’t have sided with horde… She would be undependant…
6-she only care about her forsaken and her city… Strategically speaking… Yes in a war Lordaeron would be the weakest chain, and the first city to fall… Because it’s location, but sylvanas wouldn’t not give away her city just like she did in her short novel and in game… This is the only reason she lives for… We can see she cares for her people on her novels during cataclysm and in game… Even during the siege of undercity she claims… Look at what they did to my beautiful city!!! Very angrily, this shows much much she cares about the city, this is really the last city she would want to lose…
Ultimately I say it again… Sylvanas is not a vanilla hero… She cares only for her people and she wouldn’t mind killing horde and alliance alike if they get in her way… But she doesn’t do it if it not necessarily… She stood in undercity all this years in peace… And there’s no reason for her to be doing this now… Again… She would totally be an independant faction…
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I did mention before that she could hand herself in to priests so that they could put her to rest.
I still do not see why Lordaeron was needed to survive and why she even needed to survive if she can’t die.
It would make more sense for Sylvanas to go to northrend, not only is arthas there but there’s a lot more fauna around for her to bring into her army such as ice trolls and all that. She could have pulled off the same thing she did with Varimathras against Arthas and possibly could have won since he didn’t have Kel’thuzad to save him.
Sylvanas involved herself in a battle she had zero stake in. Logically speaking, the Dreadlords and Kel’thuzad should have been the ones fighting, not Sylvanas vs the Dreadlords. Kel’thuzad had the book of medivh so the Dreadlords would want to fight him, the Dreadlords have nothing that Sylvanas wants and quite frankly by sitting in Lordaeron, she’s letting Arthas grow in power.
It’s important to remember that Sylvanas never saw what Garithos did to the Blood Elves and at the time, Garithos and the elves were allies. She still murdered them all, even though the humans worked together with them in the second war.
To care about a bunch of mindless ghouls is absurd… they’re dead, mindless and only seek death… why do you care to “protect” them? Why does Sylvanas care about something that is literally rotting and decaying, yet moving? The same things that destroyed her homeland in the first place.
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They answer that during a quest in wow, basically saying that most of the forsaken are originally from Lordaeron, if we go post warcraft 3, and as you said… Maybe it would have made mroe sense for dreadlords to leave her in peace… But that wasn’t what happened… She was forced into battle and was made to realize while they are there they would be hunt And tortured in case they wouldn’t die, perhaps forced once again into battle, like mindless undead, so this is a fight for freedom.
Why staying in Lordaeron? Because it’s a secured area, for her and her forsaken by the end of her campaign…
Why killing garithos?, because war is not throwing flowers like we are set to believe…
Garithos is clearly a threat, by the end he basically wants to kick sylvanas out of Lordaeron…
So it’s really that simple, as a strategic point I would have done the same, killing the threat securing the area for the people I care about…
During ancient time and wartimes I can’t figure any king commander or leader doubting one second to kill in order to protect their people…
(I wouldn’t give in to wow story telling it is super weak and doesn’t make sense… Lightforged forsaken… They don’t know what else to make up)
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The Dreadlords didn’t force a battle on her, they wanted her to join them or be cast aside. Sylvanas didn’t even need to stay in Lordaeron, the Dreadlords gave her an opportunity, she refused and Varimathras didn’t really do much about it at all. Sylvanas took it upon herself to attack, she could have just left, gone to Northrend… where Arthas is and never see the Dreadlords ever again.
So how was there a fight for freedom? She could have left the Eastern Kingdoms entirely and I doubt the Dreadlords would chase her, they had more important things to do, like getting the book of medivh off of Kel’thuzad who was stationed there at the time.
Sylvanas had nothing to do with any of that, her only purpose was to get revenge on Arthas.
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Where would have Sylvanas gone though? return to/invade her own homelands with an army that has no ties to Quel’thalas?
If there were any point where she could usurp power as a leader, it would have been at Lordaeron taking control away from the Scourge/Dreadlords. That is the Warcraft 3 story for her.
To say that she had other options is to ignore the story that was told. I mean we could ask ‘Why didn’t Arthas just stay in EK’ or ‘Why didn’t Medivh just reveal himself to Antonidas/Terenas so he can more easily convince them’ but that all subverts the actual story and the characters themselves. We wouldn’t have a story if Arthas turned the other cheek.
What is important is to realize what Sylvanas did was because it is in her character to do so. And that’s what is also frustratingly inconsistent with her portrayal in WoW. I would agree that had WoW continued her characterization from WC3, she would not have joined the Horde. She only joined the Horde as a lore reason to satisfy the game designers wanting Undead to be a playable race without splitting off a 3rd faction.
And the Dreadlords have been painted as an ever-present threat that has to be dealt with. From Mal’ganis creating the events leading to Arthas becoming Lich King to Tichondrius corrupting the forests of Kalimdor, we have been shown how much of an influence they have over the world. By all means, if the Dreadlords were not meant to be a point of conflict in TFT, then they wouldn’t stick around after Archimonde was defeated. The story intentionally writes them in as an obstacle for a new protagonist (Sylvanas). That is the only means to them existing in TFT’s story.
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While most of what you’re saying I can agree with, it is far too strong of a statement to say that Dreadlords only exist in TFT to be an obstacle for Sylvanas. The Dreadlords are, in my opinion, more of a driving force for the story. A chaotic enough enemy to allow writers the leeway and enemies to fashion conflicts out of. Given their toolset; mind control, subversion, corruption and self interest, they are the perfect characters to proverbially “stir the pot.” They are the primary instigators, either for the Legion, or for their own ambitions.
I forget where, but somewhere back in the forums is one dedicated just to Dreadlords and how dynamic and far reaching their effects are on the Wc3 series.
So do us a favour, and don’t downplay the importance of (arguably) the main antagonists in the series.
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They could literally be replaced by a pre-WoW iteration of the Scarlet Crusade or secondary Scourge antagonist. It so happened to be dreadlords.
I honestly dont give them much weight because in the end they are portrayed as incompetant, overconfident cowards who arent able to control the races they meddle with. It takes mental leaps to justify them as competant villains, since they are always considered a secondary threat and act like the Officers in the Empire in Star Wars. They are just doing their job, and not a great job at that. Dreadlords are just in the way, exactly the same way Magtheridon was the lord of Outland. By all means, the Legion story was wrapped up in ROC, and TFT only served to show what a pathetic attempt to save face was made by the surviving demons.
And this is based on WC3, not counting Malganis returning or Balnazzar taking over the Scarlet Crusade despite being killed off. I dont count those actions relevant to the portrayal of Dreadlords as they existed in WC3.
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Did you not read when I said she would go to Northrend?
Well said. The Dreadlords deserved way more credit than the writers ever gave them.
The Dreadlords were arguably more important than Sylvanas in Warcraft 3, Sylvanas was just a high elf who just happened to be murdered and brought back from the dead as a banshee. There’s nothing special about her at all… but Blizzard made her a mary sue because players couldn’t bare to lose their precious sex symbol.
This is why I don’t want them to change Sylvanas’ character in reforged and I know they will. Back in Reign Of Chaos, she was barely even relevant to the lore at all and was a throwaway NPC who was only there to annoy the ever loving crap out of Arthas (and the player), her purpose was to be an unlikable character to balance out the fact that you are controlling a genocidal maniac.
Without Sylvanas in Reign Of Chaos, players would start to question what it is they are doing, committing all of these evil deeds, Sylvanas’ job was to give the player something to focus on so that they didn’t have to consider the immoralty of their actions. She was supposed to be unlikable so that players would want Arthas to win because lets face it, Arthas himself is an unlikable character as it is (well he’s supposed to be), the guy is evil to the core and a spoiled prince but by making Sylvanas even more unlikable by comparison, players would be rooting for Arthas.
That’s the entire purpose of her character in ROC.
If anyone were to defeat the Dreadlords, Illidan would be the most fitting character for the task, he is a demon hunter after all and defeated Tichondrius. Tichondrius’ death made perfect sense because he was up against a worthy adversary.
Detheroc’s death made literally no sense. He towers over Sylvanas since he’s a demon. Sylvanas ripping Detheroc to bloody shreds is ironic considering the fact that his hands are bigger than her head… and they have claws… I’d wager Detheroc would be the most likely to rip Sylvanas to bloody shreds, heck Sylvanas uses a bow… not a bladed weapon (until WOW that is). What would she do to rip Detheroc to shreds? Tear her fingernails into him? Please…
I’m guessing that she ordered her army of ghouls to overwhelm him and tear him to bloody shreds but still… not a very exciting way for the Dreadlords to go.
I’m not completely against Legacy Of The Damned but that one part of the game really bothered me… though if Varimathras staged the whole thing (which was still a plausable thing) then it would make sense, therefore I accepted it, the Dreadlords let Sylvanas win…
If you think I’m wrong, try fighting Tichondrius as Illidan without the Skull Of Gul’dan, he is invincible… if Illidan can’t kill a dreadlord, there’s no way that Sylvanas could… unless the whole thing was set up.
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The problem is you’re looking at this as though the Dreadlords mean anything post-ROC. They don’t, and they are written to be overconfident and extremely fallible, which is a continuation of exactly what happened in ROC. They were incredibly overconfident and they paid the price.
I agree that TFT did so in a comic way that made no sense, giving a lowly ‘Forsaken’ character so much power over possession and control of not only undead but living mercenaries as well, but that’s the way the Dreadlords ended up being written and that is the story.
Either way you will see that I am not wrong in saying the Dreadlords only purpose in TFT was to be an antagonist to Sylvanas, because ultimately it was her story. Just the same, they made a complete buffoon out of Garithos, and they could have written him completely differently as a Scarlet Crusade type of character who is zealous about wiping out the Scourge in Lordaeron instead of some incompetant general. But that’s how they chose to portray this particular HUMAN. Understand that this isn’t how ALL Humans act, and the same can be said of the Dreadlords and their fall. But it’s important to make the distinction that this is how HUMANS are portrayed in TFT, which I’m alluding is how Dreadlords were portrayed in TFT.
So is it right that they got turned into 1-dimensional mustache twirlers? No. But that is what Balnazzar, Detheroc, Mephistroth and Varimathras are as portrayed in TFT. Just like we can’t take a look at Garithos and assume that he’s strong enough to resist Sylvanas’ possession because he’s a badass, and that he could have taken over Lordaeron himself and that the writers should have given him more credit. You see how biased it looks to even suggest it, right? There’s no place for that kind of thing in the TFT story. Garithos is written AS a conflict for the protagonists, and that is the ONLY reason he exists rather than as some badass Argent Dawn or Scarlet Crusade type character.
By all means, the Dreadlords are so comically incompetant and cowardly in TFT that no one should be rooting for them. The only reason you do is because you revere their former prowess as shown in ROC, which is a very different story being told. That is why I say they were completely replaceable by any other fallible enemy in TFT. I personally think you are making the wrong argument because you are trying to prop the dreadlords up as more powerful mastermind enemies, when the entire point of Sylvanas’ story is to show how she is able to subvert an overconfident enemy (no matter who that enemy may be). The story honestly would not change one bit if the Dreadlords were replaced by a Scarlet Crusade type or a new Scourge secondary antagonist. Hell, this would have even been a perfect place to introduce the San’layn if you think about it, since they would have had a shared background with Sylvanas and are what High/Blood Elves would have been if they sided with Arthas instead of tried to oppose him. Wouldn’t that be interesting?
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There is so much wrong in all this it’s ridiculous… Kil’jaeden is still around… the dreadlord’s mission is not over, they are still supposed to be just as important in TFT as they are in ROC.
Remember when Kil’jaeden said to Illidan “By consuming the skull of Gul’dan, you sealed our defeat in this world”?
This was clearly Kil’jaeden’s plan and while Tichondrius was working for Archimonde directly, he was secretly working for Kil’jaeden indirectly and Kil’jaeden’s statement greatly implicates that fact.
It’s important to remember that the Dreadlords want the Book Of Medivh… they also want Arthas dead but first they must build up their power in the plaguelands so that they can gather up an army for the legion so that when they arrive, they will be prepared.
Ultimately, the Dreadlords were meant to sow the seeds in position for the Legion and prepare for the second invasion. This was Varimathras’ plan, use Sylvanas as a figurehead to gain influence over the undead and use as a scapegoat against Kel’thuzad and Arthas so that the Dreadlords could stay in the shadows be receive the least suspicion.
You can’t have a grand scheme materialize out of thin air… plus it’s pretty obvious that Varimathras had zero loyalty to Sylvanas, he does not fear her… he’s just making her feel like she has won. Dreadlords are smart like that. He would do everything that is necessary, even if it meant betraying his own brothers to do so, though he had hoped it wouldn’t come to that. He wasn’t going to drop his entire plan just because of one silly little thing, Dreadlords aren’t necesarry loyal to each other, hence the fact that it is forbidden to kill one another… still didn’t stop Varimathras from doing it.
You’re giving Sylvanas way too much credit. Why would Varimathras beg to join her? It’s obvious he had an agenda and if he didn’t, he wouldn’t even think to beg for his life.
The entire point in Sylvanas’ story is to get revenge on Arthas, not to subvert an overconfident enemy. The Dreadlords weren’t even overconfident, they were in a very bad situation, Sylvanas never even once outsmarted them, the Nathrezim invented Necromancy, they know too well the capabilities of a banshee and not to trust them, heck Balnazzar even says it himself “I for one, do not trust her, her heart is still elven… she will never side with us”
then Varimathras says “true, but she has great spirit… and her hatred for Arthas will ultimately serve out cause”
They knew Sylvanas wouldn’t join them, even if they did threaten her… so instead they let her win to make her easier to manipulate later on.
Garithos being defeated by Sylvanas is plausible, never said it wasn’t… but it’s still stupid for her to go and do it instead of chasing after Arthas.
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Kil’jaeden is a means to an end. He is there to show Illidan’s motives and characterization, nothing more.
The legion subplot is all but done. They only serve the purpose of being fallible villains. The legion is not the main threat of the expansion, they’re simply a means to an end. They motivate characters into action but they are no longer the end goal, they simply serve as an ever-present threat looming in the background just as it was in Warcraft 1 and 2.
The Dreadlords served their purpose. Them wanting Arthas dead has very litte substance to build their story. That was a means for them to want to ally with Sylvanas. The entire story revolves around her, so whomever’s plan it was to use who doesn’t matter. The story was written for the Dreadlords to fail. It wasn’t until later that they rewrote things to make it seem like it was the DL’s plans all along to ‘fail’ in front of Sylvanas.
You are still pretending Varimathras has a bigger role in the story than he does. He serves only to be a foil to Sylvanas, and he crumbles completely. You simply don’t want to believe it and make excuses for yourself. Look around, no one will agree with you that Varimathras is the one in control. Not even Blizzard, considering what went down in Legion.
You clearly haven’t bothered to read the Warcraft 2 manual… which shows that Kil’jaeden is most definitely not a means to an end. He is an important character in the series. He is the reason why the orcs invaded Azeroth to begin with… don’t you dare say he’s just an excuse to give Illidan his motives… In fact, the real reason why he gets Illidan to work for him is because Illidan has the skull of his pupil in his hands… which makes Illidan his new pupil in his eyes since he has surpassed Gul’dan and foiled Tichondrius’ plans.
Deathlygod already agrees with me so I don’t think you have much of a ground to stand on with this argument.
As for what Blizzard thinks, I don’t care what Blizzard thinks now, Metzen is gone, he has retired. There’s nothing good that can happen to the Warcraft series with him gone… nothing.
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In TFT he was. He didn’t do anything directly. His only purpose in the campaign was to show Illidan’s motivation.
Same as in the WC2 manual. He did not directly influence anything. That is important to note in the story that he may be a powerful character working behind the scenes, but his purpose in the story is singular.
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And that proves what exactly? Do you have any idea what it is you’re actually trying to argue at this point or are you just here to tell me “You’re wrong, everything you says is wrong because I said so and I want to prove that I am right even though I have no point to make”?
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The point is simple - the Demons were generic villains for the purpose of TFT’s story. They posed very little threat because the story was not about them, it was about the conflict between the mortal races in the aftermath and how they all split power amongst themselves.
It is no different than how Garithos was added as a Human trying to reclaim Lordaeron. We know the tenacity of humans, but his role in the story was not to show that or how resilient Humanity is or any of its good properties. It’s to show that they are completely out of their league in the current EK, and their goals are futile no matter how noble or grand they may be.
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If they were very little threat, why would they be there in the first place? What would be the point in having demons around for no reason? They still had a part to play, that’s why. Curse Of The Blood Elves’ ending made it pretty damn obvious. Why else would Kil’jaeden be telling Illidan to destroy the Lich King? Because Kil’jaeden has set his eyes on the Scourge, not the mortal races.
Sylvanas and Kil’jaeden both had one thing in common, they both want Arthas dead, hence why the Dreadlords were working together with her, they were his jailors and Kil’jaeden ordered them to deal with Arthas should he betray the Legion.
Therefore the Dreadlords are not a minor threat, they are a pretty big deal, they are doing Kil’jaeden’s job now since Archimonde is dead… but they were serving Kil’jaeden all along, that’s the twist that Arthas didn’t realize. The mortal races thought the Legion was defeated… but they were wrong, the Legion were making preparations for another invasion… slowly but surely.
In a way, this is actually a good thing for the Dreadlords because Archimonde was a terrible strategist, so terrible that when Archimonde put Tichondrius in charge of the scourge, Tichondrius didn’t even bother to help him in the invasion, instead opting to work for Kil’jaeden instead.
Now that Archimonde is out of the way, the dreadlords are free to act, making them much more of a threat than they would be if Archimonde was still around. They feared Archimonde but had little respect for him and were clearly fed up with him as leader.
Archimonde was after all the brawn, his idea was to go in head first… which worked for a while… but the mortal races were crafty so they stopped him. Kil’jaeden however is a mastermind, he doesn’t blindly charge in like his brother, hence why the Dreadlords were a serious threat… not that anyone knew that at the time though.
Therefore Sylvanas was the one who underestimated them, not the other way round… she thought the Legion were finished, their masters were defeated but little did she know that Kil’jaeden was still around, the Dreadlords knew this but never gave that away, she thought that they were an easy target… but the truth is, the Dreadlords were always easy targets… the problem is that they are also easily able to control the situation, using themselves as “easy targets”, much like how Mal’ganis used Arthas’ anger to make him pull out frostmorne out of desperation.
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